1. #2721
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    I'm asking this because I'm not really in a place that has any contact with muslims or its society. But it does seem illogical to me to invite he who thinks you are the enemy into your backyard. Even the more moderate still think you represent all sorts of devious beliefs just don't act on it. It sounds to me like a recipe for disaster.
    My contact with muslims is heavily biased, I know some from university. They are all very liberal, some wear a headscarf some not, some drink alcohol some not. They do not care what your religion is, the parents of some of them are of different religions (husband is christian and wife is muslim or vice versa).
    What can be said in general is that there are hundreds of different interpretations of the Quran, some are coherent with 'western values' some may not be. Still, if your interpretation of your religion forbids you to drink alcohol that does not mean that you want every other person to follow that rule too.
    Last edited by Renyo; 2016-07-16 at 11:55 PM.

  2. #2722
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The last time I met a moderate Muslim she made out with me..
    For some reason I doubt she thinks I represent all sorts of devious beliefs.
    She probably merely thought you were being naughty, which is a milder form of deviousness, really. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    First things, first. Let's get one thing straight: Pros, aren't typing on mmo-champion on a saturday. We're both amateurs. At this, at least.

    Second, I have absolutely no suggestion. Nor do I need to have, since I'm not actually the one creating policy (and neither are you). At this point, I'm inclined to believe the shit has hit the fan, so to speak. I'm only wondering whether or not it was really a good idea to invite obvious problems to your backyard. Of course, hindsight is 20/20 but still..
    I wanted to say amateur instead of clown or fool, because it's less insulting. And also amateur night refers to comedy clubs having amateur standup comedians giving a horrible performance by the dozen before you have one half decent guy that makes you crack a smile.
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  3. #2723
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The last time I met a moderate Muslim she made out with me..
    For some reason I doubt she thinks I represent all sorts of devious beliefs.
    Oh! Great, someone less inclined to be agressive. Great. So that's why I was asking questions.

    Then, their beliefs ARE NOT in direct contradiction with your liberties?

    Then the questions remains, does she only claim to be muslim (but doesn't really care) OR are the two things not completely polar opposites? By two things I mean "muslim religion" - "western liberties".

  4. #2724
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    So when you people talk about burning shit, heck, why not take you literally?
    Because a metaphor is not meant literaly. Because you judge my opinion not on its own merit but conveniently assign it a foreign context and me a place within a box of other undesirables. Hence you treat my opinion with what looks to you justifed moral indignation and to me like infantile arrogance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'm just here to wait for the first guy to come up with gas chambers and the holy trinity of nazism is complete. We already got discrimination against a religion and deportation... come on guys, who's got the balls to speak his mind? :P
    I have. I just dont have the kind of mind you hoped for.

  5. #2725
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    Because a metaphor is not meant literaly. Because you judge my opinion not on its own merit but conveniently assign it a foreign context and me a place within a box of other undesirables. Hence you treat my opinion with what looks to you justifed moral indignation and to me like infantile arrogance.

    I have. I just dont have the kind of mind you hoped for.
    You suggested gas chambers? Awesome... now I've seen it all. :P

    Btw, here's the thing... once you start "burning the jungle" (btw, that's how you can make sure I don't take you literally in this age of idiocy where people actually mean metaphors literally)... what do you think the other Muslims in Europe will do? I did ask this time and again, but you lot don't seem to want to reply to it. 2 second thoughts usually don't involve things like practical application or consequences, I'm guessing...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Muslims aren't some secret hive mind. Plenty of them fit into Western society every bit as well as members of other religions do, while some members of other religions do not fit in at all, despite being born and raised in Western society.
    Um, he knows that. He's ignoring it. He thinks it's too complicated to differentiate when you can just talk about all 1.5 billion of them. We're beyond pretense now. Don't waste your time on explaining the obvious to him.
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  6. #2726
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You suggested gas chambers? Awesome... now I've seen it all. :P
    https://youtu.be/wjLgekyOZA0?t=56s

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Btw, here's the thing... once you start "burning the jungle" (btw, that's how you can make sure I don't take you literally in this age of idiocy where people actually mean metaphors literally)... what do you think the other Muslims in Europe will do? I did ask this time and again, but you lot don't seem to want to reply to it. 2 second thoughts usually don't involve things like practical application or consequences, I'm guessing...
    Your provocations are moot. The reaction (and its violence) depends not on how abrupt and violent the change to the ecosystem is.

    Now back to the 2 second thought accusation you seem to be so fond of. Please tell, what action to introduce change do you propose, why is that action going to achieve the change you desire or fit to preserve the status quo and why is that outcome more desireable than the options proposed by those you take the liberty of mocking?
    Last edited by Runenwächter; 2016-07-17 at 12:21 AM.

  7. #2727
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Muslims aren't some secret hive mind. Plenty of them fit into Western society every bit as well as members of other religions do, while some members of other religions do not fit in at all, despite being born and raised in Western society.
    Oh for sure! I once dated (or was about to) a christian girl from this small variation of christianism that literally about 5 minutes into the date started talking about how I was the closest thing to a devilspawn because I admited to having had sex with a friend just for fun. Thing is, while she abhors my values, her religion prohibits any sort of violence. Muslim religion encourages "holy crusades" or such. Does it not?

    I think it's pretty obvious here that I'm completely against any sort of religion. It's a tough situation, no doubt. But I'm inclined to believe the mothers of the children who died in nice or in NY or in madrid, or london don't really care if a portion of the guests you invited didn't do anything. They care about the fact that the others did. Maybe get the ones that aren't into holy murder to point fingers to the ones that are?

  8. #2728
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Religion is not just what is said in holy texts. Most Christians don't even pay particularly close attention to the Bible these days. Those that do often interpret it all willy nilly in accordance with their preexisting beliefs. It matters little what Islam or any given sect of Islam or the Koran says. What matters is how the individual acts, and there are a good deal of them that do not believe in violence to impose religious beliefs on others.
    See, this is where I disagree. If you don't go to church, don't read the bible and don't really pray to anything, you're not a catholic. Plain and simple. You may call yourself a catholic but you really aren't. If you just believe in god but it ends right there, then you are NOT a catholic, you just believe in god. Of course, all that is just my opinion.

    When I say muslims, I mean muslims by the book. The ones who think girls in bikinis are sinful and offensive. These moderates, are just like my uncle, who says he's catholic but has never stepped foot inside a church, confessed to anyone and used to cheat on his wife, whom he just divorced.

    Not to say anything bad about moderates, of course. Like I said, the furthest away from religion, the better, in my views.

  9. #2729
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    See, this is where I disagree. If you don't go to church, don't read the bible and don't really pray to anything, you're not a catholic. Plain and simple. You may call yourself a catholic but you really aren't. If you just believe in god but it ends right there, then you are NOT a catholic, you just believe in god. Of course, all that is just my opinion.

    When I say muslims, I mean muslims by the book. The ones who think girls in bikinis are sinful and offensive. These moderates, are just like my uncle, who says he's catholic but has never stepped foot inside a church, confessed to anyone and used to cheat on his wife, whom he just divorced.

    Not to say anything bad about moderates, of course. Like I said, the furthest away from religion, the better, in my views.
    If you arbitrarily limit who is really a muslim to only the most devout then I think we've found the source of your confusion.

  10. #2730
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    If you arbitrarily limit who is really a muslim to only the most devout then I think we've found the source of your confusion.
    Like I said, if you don't follow everything the religion says you should, you are not of that religion, you just created another variation. You can't really call yourself a dog if you have a beak instead of a snout. You're now a birdog.

  11. #2731
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Yet there are many varieties of dogs and so long as any particular organism shares particular traits and genetic relations, you can come up with an extremely diverse array. Just compare a mastiff to a border collie to a bloodhound to a poodle to a chihuahua. They are all quite different than each other, but at their core, they are still quadrupedal canids of the order carnivora.
    VERY well put! They do, however, like you said, share particular traits and genetic relations to each other such as: having a snout, a tail, barking. Aka: Going to church, reading the bible, praying. If any of those traits aren't present, they cease to be called dogs. They're henceforth called - other things. Such as wolverines, lizards and eagles.

  12. #2732
    Ideologies are definable. You CAN define someone into or out of an ideology based on their positions. Islam and Islamic Jihadism are ideologies. It's not fallacious the way it is for nationality (the original context of No True Scotsman). If someone's beliefs are radically opposed to their stated ideology, they are in fact not a true representative of that ideology. Participating in the interpretation of Jihad and Hadiths that involes violence against non believers is not an "out" marker, it is an "in" marker and that will be the case as long as there are not clear cut lines regarding that interpretation.
    Just because your interpretation of the holy scripture differs doesn't mean that the ideology has changed or its definition has to be extended.
    Last edited by Runenwächter; 2016-07-17 at 12:45 AM.

  13. #2733
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    Like I said, if you don't follow everything the religion says you should, you are not of that religion, you just created another variation. You can't really call yourself a dog if you have a beak instead of a snout. You're now a birdog.
    This a) assumes that anyone follows everything their holy book says, which is impossible as they're often contradictory and b) that there is one known true interpretation.

  14. #2734
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    Alright allow me to correct myself.

    Deport all the Muslim immigrants.

    How do you prove someone is a muslim?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiev View Post
    Oh for sure! I once dated (or was about to) a christian girl from this small variation of christianism that literally about 5 minutes into the date started talking about how I was the closest thing to a devilspawn because I admited to having had sex with a friend just for fun. Thing is, while she abhors my values, her religion prohibits any sort of violence. Muslim religion encourages "holy crusades" or such. Does it not?

    I think it's pretty obvious here that I'm completely against any sort of religion. It's a tough situation, no doubt. But I'm inclined to believe the mothers of the children who died in nice or in NY or in madrid, or london don't really care if a portion of the guests you invited didn't do anything. They care about the fact that the others did. Maybe get the ones that aren't into holy murder to point fingers to the ones that are?
    Christianity does not prohibit violence. If it didn't they could not serve in the military.

  15. #2735
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    How do you prove someone is a muslim?
    Ask them if they think that violence when responding to insults against the prophet muhammed is justified or wether they think sharia law should take precendence over secualar law. that should get you around half of them. We shoot the rest of the suspects with bullets covered in pig blood. If they burst into flames we got ourselves a winner, if they don't, we apologize, tell them we too share their grief and feel deply for their loss but insist strongly that their loved ones death had nothing to do with our violent fascist belief system./s

  16. #2736
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    Ask them if they think that violence when responding to insults against the prophet muhammed is justified or wether they think sharia law should take precendence over secualar law. that should get you around half of them. We shoot the rest of the suspects with bullets covered in pig blood. If they burst into flames we got ourselves a winner, if they don't, we apologize, tell them we too share their grief and feel deply for their loss but insist strongly that their loved ones death had nothing to do with our violent fascist belief system./s
    yeah... Cause they would never lie..... Certainly not the ones willing to kill others. They definitely won't lie to get in the country.

  17. #2737
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    This a) assumes that anyone follows everything their holy book says, which is impossible as they're often contradictory and b) that there is one known true interpretation.
    It's almost as if the Abrahamic religions are irrational propositions in the first place.

  18. #2738
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeJoe View Post
    yeah... Cause they would never lie..... Certainly not the ones willing to kill others. They definitely won't lie to get in the country.
    Yeah, but thats what the pig blood bullets are for! If a method is good enough for the warriors of the caliphate, who are we to want to do better?/s

    Well how about this for a start: We do not extend everyone and their mother citizenship that easily but make them work for it. You know, less of a giveaway, more of an earned priviledge. Initial testing over serveral millenia has shown pretty convincing results.
    So, if they speak the language, do not come into conflict with the law (not talking parking tickets here) and can hold a job for several years, we welcome them amongst our flock, where the religious is to be kept in the private and has no place in the political and public.
    I know that sadly at present we are nowhere near the point yet where the lines and laws are clear enough and this is sufficiently enforced. But we can get there, as a people, non violently and through debate.

    When their individual cognitive and social learning capabilities allow them to do this and their ingrained socialisation, norms, faith or ideology permits them that much flexibility and dont prove insurmountable obstacles, chances are great, that they will find acceptance employment and build a healthy relationship with our societies, no matter the name of their holy book. If not, no judgement necessary as long as off and into the wide world with all its beauty and opportunity they go. Hey! Ho! Adventure!
    Last edited by Runenwächter; 2016-07-17 at 04:19 AM.

  19. #2739
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    Ideologies are definable. You CAN define someone into or out of an ideology based on their positions. Islam and Islamic Jihadism are ideologies. It's not fallacious the way it is for nationality (the original context of No True Scotsman). If someone's beliefs are radically opposed to their stated ideology, they are in fact not a true representative of that ideology. Participating in the interpretation of Jihad and Hadiths that involes violence against non believers is not an "out" marker, it is an "in" marker and that will be the case as long as there are not clear cut lines regarding that interpretation.
    Just because your interpretation of the holy scripture differs doesn't mean that the ideology has changed or its definition has to be extended.
    Yes but Islam does not have one definition.
    - The ones who think it does, are overwhelmingly the violent ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    The bare minimum requirement to be Christian is simply to believe Jesus was the messiah. I do not know the requirements for Islam,
    The Shahada.

  20. #2740
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runenwächter View Post
    Yeah, but thats what the pig blood bullets are for! If a method is good enough for the warriors of the caliphate, who are we to want to do better?/s

    Well how about this for a start: We do not extend everyone and their mother citizenship that easily but make them work for it. You know, less of a giveaway, more of an earned priviledge. Initial testing over serveral millenia has shown pretty convincing results.
    So, if they speak the language, do not come into conflict with the law (not talking parking tickets here) and can hold a job for several years, we welcome them amongst our flock, where the religious is to be kept in the private and has no place in the political and public.
    I know that sadly at present we are nowhere near the point yet where the lines and laws are clear enough and this is sufficiently enforced. But we can get there, as a people, non violently and through debate.

    When their individual cognitive and social learning capabilities allow them to do this and their ingrained socialisation, norms, faith or ideology permits them that much flexibility and dont prove insurmountable obstacles, chances are great, that they will find acceptance employment and build a healthy relationship with our societies, no matter the name of their holy book. If not, no judgement necessary as long as off and into the wide world with all its beauty and opportunity they go. Hey! Ho! Adventure!

    So you just shoot anyone before they enter the country? yeah... You're just as bad if not worse than those you want to stop.

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