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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wenoxar View Post
    Hi

    Was just testing Legion on beta and ptr and two big questions came to my mind

    1. Changing talents inside raid/instance won't be as easy and accessible as it used to be in WoD, am I right? How expensive will it be?

    2. Why dafuq Blizzard removed macros to zoom out camera further than default? Like... what was wrong about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    People made a big deal about the zoom and there was a lot of attention called to it here--and explanations offered. It's probably going to be a problem.

    But the talent change is mind blowing and I dont' think a lot of people are aware of it. They are convinced we would be happier if we weren't changing our talents all the time. Or maybe they consider it part of the "experience" to run back to town when we forgot to set ourselves up for outdoor activities. Maybe they just want us to be less aware of how lame our talent choices are (sue me, I'm a rogue, and our talents are less than riveting).

    I suspect this is going to be a big deal once people really understand what's happening--I can live with the zoom change but not being able to change my talents on the fly without a raid-level consumable is extremely irritating. I found out rather late about it, it was buried in the noise.
    I think you both missed the memo, but to keep Inscription semi-viable they've added a scroll to make a x-radius area a "rested zone" so you can change your talents in the world. It will be an expensive item since it's meant to be used by raids. For everything else you can use an INN on your quest trail to switch your talents. It really won't be that big of an issue.

    On the zoom thing - Blizz felt it gave raiders in the know an unfair advantage. They want your character to have more screen real estate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    BURIED IN THE NOISE? The talent change was implemented AFTER Blizzard decided to introduce a gold cost for changing SPECS in Legion Alpha. Hybrids whined so much, Blizzard decided to turn this around and give spec changing for free, but talent change at the cost of time (returning at a city) or a reagent (raid wide or personal).

    - - - Updated - - -



    Don't try to find some sense in Blizzard's explanation for the camera zoom nerf. I believe there is another reason they are hiding from us (speculation for console WoW is one of the rumors in the community, graphic engine problems with the bigger viewing distance is another), but needed an excuse. They gave us one. A horrible one.

    - - - Updated - - -





    Who gives a fuck about that or what other games can/could do? We didn't have to for more than 7+ years, now we are forced to, without a good reason given, or as i believe, a fake reason given. That's the community's problem, not our inability to adapt.
    You might want to get back on your meds and take off your tin foil hat bro... There is no wow conspiracy for the zoom nerf outside ease of access to the game for beginners.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    I think you both missed the memo, but to keep Inscription semi-viable they've added a scroll to make a x-radius area a "rested zone" so you can change your talents in the world. It will be an expensive item since it's meant to be used by raids. For everything else you can use an INN on your quest trail to switch your talents. It really won't be that big of an issue.

    On the zoom thing - Blizz felt it gave raiders in the know an unfair advantage. They want your character to have more screen real estate.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You might want to get back on your meds and take off your tin foil hat bro... There is no wow conspiracy for the zoom nerf outside ease of access to the game for beginners.
    Please, do tell me, how me using a macro and increasing my camera zoom HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH EASE OF ACCESS TO THE GAME FOR BEGINNERS? They get an extra difficulty level when i zoom more? Start making sense, presumably start taking meds to return to a sane state of mind.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Wenoxar View Post
    Am I correct about this:

    Blizzard adjusted camera zoom on Legion because big part of community never knew about those camera macros, and therefore it wouldn't be fair for some part of community to use those macros and some not.

    At least that's what I've understood from the blue post...
    No, they are just idiotic in the sense that they want US to see THEIR artwork close up. They don't actually care about tanks or melee that either see the boss' bellybutton or ass and nothing else.

  4. #44
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    Please, do tell me, how me using a macro and increasing my camera zoom HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH EASE OF ACCESS TO THE GAME FOR BEGINNERS? They get an extra difficulty level when i zoom more? Start making sense, presumably start taking meds to return to a sane state of mind.
    Because there is no user guide that tells people "if you want to have a larger zoom area type /console cameradistancemaxfactor x into your chat log". You have to know people, see a video, or get an add-on that does it automatically to teach you this. It took me 4 years of playing before anyone told me about an increased zoom distance. It isn't an "extra difficulty level". I forget that many elitists that raid know everything from the moment they picked up WoW.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDestinatus View Post
    Its unbalanced for melee, they are incapable of viewing the entire battlefield like the ranged do making is harder to react to mechanics. No one said its impossible, I'm sure you could do mythic first person if you wanted to prove a point but that doesn't mean is isn't bad for melee compared to ranged.
    Some people managed, others claim they did not.
    Personally I think it is generally a case of what players got used to, in that they have convinced themselves they cannot manage it any other way.
    What I am not seeing is people providing examples with irrefutable proof of how that reduced view is preventing them doing their job.
    If someone can provide actual evidence through video that the new maximum is insufficient, then I can get behind that.
    Do video, show where you cannot see things sufficiently.
    Do that and you will get blizzard's attention for the right reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wenoxar View Post
    Am I correct about this:

    Blizzard adjusted camera zoom on Legion because big part of community never knew about those camera macros, and therefore it wouldn't be fair for some part of community to use those macros and some not.

    At least that's what I've understood from the blue post...
    That is part of the argument, but not the entirety.
    The encounters were seemingly tested around the default that players had access to.
    And it was enough for blizzard to increase the default maximum.

    But they felt the higher top-end was not necessary.

    What people see from that post has been proven in a lot of cases to be what they want to see, only the part which supports their argument.
    Blizzard talked about more than just the CVAR's, but that seems to be all you wanted to take from it.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2016-07-16 at 09:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    Because there is no user guide that tells people "if you want to have a larger zoom area type /console cameradistancemaxfactor x into your chat log". You have to know people, see a video, or get an add-on that does it automatically to teach you this. It took me 4 years of playing before anyone told me about an increased zoom distance. It isn't an "extra difficulty level". I forget that many elitists that raid know everything from the moment they picked up WoW.
    And how does that prevents EASE OF ACCESS of the beginners in the game? A beginner loses nothing in the game by not using the removed feature. An experienced player who used it for years does. And that idiotic "unfair advantage" argument? Am i competing with other players, when i use the bigger zoom? Do i win the game when i use it, but they lose, because they don't? Is it a matter of better performance in logs or world firsts? Cause none of those were mentioned in Watcher's post and even if he did insinuated such, it affects a rather smaller part of the playerbase and definitely not the beginners. Drop it already. No player loses shit if i use it and others don't. All players DO lose a choice because of this removal.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    And how does that prevents EASE OF ACCESS of the beginners in the game? A beginner loses nothing in the game by not using the removed feature. An experienced player who used it for years does. And that idiotic "unfair advantage" argument? Am i competing with other players, when i use the bigger zoom? Do i win the game when i use it, but they lose, because they don't? Is it a matter of better performance in logs or world firsts? Cause none of those were mentioned in Watcher's post and even if he did insinuated such, it affects a rather smaller part of the playerbase and definitely not the beginners. Drop it already. No player loses shit if i use it and others don't. All players DO lose a choice because of this removal.


    Seeing the entire floor from one star to the other trivialized them on the Garrosh fight. It's that kind of "competitive advantage" that I'm talking about. Here's the meat and potatoes of the post you're referencing to remind you that Watcher did touch on both advantage and ease of access -

    Originally Posted by Watcher
    In a broad range of gaming genres (from RTS to Action RPG), being able to zoom out and see more of the world around you provides an objective advantage in the form of information. Due to that competitive advantage, camera-unlocking or increased zoom distance are features commonly found in third-party hacks for a variety of games. Whatever the maximum allowed, that's what competitive players will use in order to maximize performance, even at the expense of the game's overall look and feel.

    We strongly believe that there needs to be parity in this area between players who are using the default UI and those who have addons or knowledge of hidden console variables. One option was certainly to just allow the in-game slider to go all the way up to the CVar hardcap. But that scale is beyond the one around which the game was designed at its core. The development team builds the world, its art, its combat mechanics, and other interactions, around the base UI experience and scale. At the 3.4-CVar zoom level, your heroic Warcraft avatar takes up about as much screen-space as one of the dozens of marines you might control in a game of Starcraft.

    Basically all of us started out playing WoW at the UI-enabled zoom level, and fell in love with that world enough that we now find ourselves here posting on an expansion beta forum discussing its future. At some point, we saw a raid video and wondered how they could see so much of the field at once, or we saw a forum post or got a helpful tip from another player, and learned that if you typed "/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4" you could zoom out way more, and we never looked back. But was that original experience bad, or have we just grown accustomed to something different?
    No conspiracy just a straightforward answer. I'm sorry for using facts and logic in a discussion, but when people start spouting random crap it must be done.
    Last edited by Rizendragon; 2016-07-17 at 01:44 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    No conspiracy just a straightforward answer. I'm sorry for using facts and logic in a discussion, but when people start spouting random crap it must be done.
    Yeah, and let me just quote the pertinent point here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard
    We strongly believe that there needs to be parity in this area between players who are using the default UI and those who have addons or knowledge of hidden console variables.
    So, like I said, they could have given that "parity" to players by disabling the macros, and then raising maximum zoom out in the default UI slider to what the macros allowed before. Parity, achieved. Happiness, maintained. Problem, solved.

    But, see, that's not what they did.

  9. #49
    Not sure whats up with the camera thing. Even the explanation they gave made no sense, but honestly its not a big deal in the slightest. It does sort of feel like this is how the game is meant to be played.
    You'll notice it for a day or two, then after that you are fully used to it.

    The talent thing is a non issue either.
    Its obviously a bit more inconvenient than it is now, but its nothing compared to wrath or earlier.
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  10. #50
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sydänyö View Post
    Yeah, and let me just quote the pertinent point here:



    So, like I said, they could have given that "parity" to players by disabling the macros, and then raising maximum zoom out in the default UI slider to what the macros allowed before. Parity, achieved. Happiness, maintained. Problem, solved.

    But, see, that's not what they did.
    Except they heavily implied that allowing the amount of zoom that was available previously was allowing too much and trivializing the encounters. It's literally a nerf to player power by not allowing you to see as much of the floor as you used to. Oh noes! you're going to actually need awareness beyond DBM again!

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    The talent thing is stupid, but the camera makes sense and really isn't that big of a deal. People will get used to it.
    I think the exact opposite is true. The talent thing will be annoying, but the camera change is straight-up game breaking by comparison, since it makes the game literally unplayable to those who suffer from headaches and nausea when using the default. Even if you completely disregard all the issues it creates for people who just prefer a more zoomed out camera, and the areas in which the game is clearly not designed around such a close viewpoint, the health concerns alone are more than enough reason for it to rank among the most ludicrously indefensible changes Blizzard have ever made.

    Seriously, it's mind-blowing to me that the devs are going ahead with something like this that will effectively take the game away from people who have been in love with it for years. It was a little heartbreaking to read posts on the official forums from people who just want to continue playing their favourite game, but won't be able to come Legion.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    The talent thing is stupid, but the camera makes sense and really isn't that big of a deal. People will get used to it.
    Unless you get motion sickness. In which case you're going to be nauseous, have headaches, and maybe vomit. 20 minutes of trying the demon invasions on the PTR had me standing over my sink drooling out bile while I waited for the world to go back to being stable.

    I might be able to get used to the talent thing, but that doesn't make it any less dumb to have a system designed to have you constantly changing talents and then prevent you from changing your talents. It's like it's designed specifically to be frustrating.

  13. #53
    With the removal of glyphs they needed a way for Inscription users to make money.

    So now Scribes can make items that allow you to change talents in raids.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakloh View Post
    When I read people complaining about the camera distance thing and not being able to see the environment as melee, I have to ask, do people not know that you can move the camera and look around?
    Not when you're inside the bosses ass D:

    I play a melee as well in a mythic clearing guild, I agree that it will be annoying with changed camera zoom thing. But it's not going to be an issue, at least not on the bosses we've tested so far on the beta.

    Talent changes though, wtf blizz

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post


    Seeing the entire floor from one star to the other trivialized them on the Garrosh fight. It's that kind of "competitive advantage" that I'm talking about. Here's the meat and potatoes of the post you're referencing to remind you that Watcher did touch on both advantage and ease of access -

    Originally Posted by Watcher
    In a broad range of gaming genres (from RTS to Action RPG), being able to zoom out and see more of the world around you provides an objective advantage in the form of information. Due to that competitive advantage, camera-unlocking or increased zoom distance are features commonly found in third-party hacks for a variety of games. Whatever the maximum allowed, that's what competitive players will use in order to maximize performance, even at the expense of the game's overall look and feel.

    We strongly believe that there needs to be parity in this area between players who are using the default UI and those who have addons or knowledge of hidden console variables. One option was certainly to just allow the in-game slider to go all the way up to the CVar hardcap. But that scale is beyond the one around which the game was designed at its core. The development team builds the world, its art, its combat mechanics, and other interactions, around the base UI experience and scale. At the 3.4-CVar zoom level, your heroic Warcraft avatar takes up about as much screen-space as one of the dozens of marines you might control in a game of Starcraft.

    Basically all of us started out playing WoW at the UI-enabled zoom level, and fell in love with that world enough that we now find ourselves here posting on an expansion beta forum discussing its future. At some point, we saw a raid video and wondered how they could see so much of the field at once, or we saw a forum post or got a helpful tip from another player, and learned that if you typed "/console CameraDistanceMaxFactor 4" you could zoom out way more, and we never looked back. But was that original experience bad, or have we just grown accustomed to something different?
    No conspiracy just a straightforward answer. I'm sorry for using facts and logic in a discussion, but when people start spouting random crap it must be done.
    WoW is a MMO, not a MOBA or RTS. There is no "competitive advantage", especially in PvE. What? we cheated Garrosh if we saw the whole room? Like we didn't know which star was coming or not. We controlled it by killing the appropriate NPC. Wrong example.

    You're not using facts or logic here. Trivialises? just being able to see the boss area makes the boss keel over? Even Watcher asks : But was that original experience bad, or have we just grown accustomed to something different? Opinions. Not facts.

    Not to mention he posts a non-ui image looking down a hill to convince us we're not losing distance view.

    Start using actual facts and logic and not rehashing the shitpost you just linked. we know it by heart and we have spat on its face and its arguments already in multiple threads. Go read them and come back with something original, not a shitty meme.
    Last edited by Fabinas; 2016-07-17 at 02:07 AM.

  16. #56
    The Lightbringer Rizendragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    WoW is a MMO, not a MOBA or RTS. There is no "competitive advantage", especially in PvE. What? we cheated Garrosh if we saw the whole room? Like we didn't know which star was coming or not. We controlled it by killing the appropriate NPC. Wrong example.

    You're not using facts or logic here. Trivialises? just being able to see the boss area makes the boss keel over? Even Watcher asks : But was that original experience bad, or have we just grown accustomed to something different? Opinions. Not facts.

    Not to mention he posts a non-ui image looking down a hill to convince us we're not losing distance view.

    Start using actual facts and logic and not rehashing the shitpost you just linked. we know it by heart and we have spat on its face and its arguments already in multiple threads. Go read them and come back with something original, not a shitty meme.
    If you're simply rejecting the dev team's reasons then we don't have much more to discuss. I agree with Ion. You do not. I guess we'll have to leave it there. I simply find a bunch of this mouth frothing nothing more than butthurt, spoiled child, tantrums. I WANT MY TOY BACK! :'(

    Edit: to add to that - It's pretty obvious that they have started designing around a larger view distance. They want to reduce the amount of information (yes that is a player power) one can have on the screen at one time via seeing what is 200+ yards away from you without panning the camera that way. If you don't like that then so be it.
    Last edited by Rizendragon; 2016-07-17 at 02:13 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Demeia View Post
    But the talent change is mind blowing and I dont' think a lot of people are aware of it. They are convinced we would be happier if we weren't changing our talents all the time. Or maybe they consider it part of the "experience" to run back to town when we forgot to set ourselves up for outdoor activities. Maybe they just want us to be less aware of how lame our talent choices are (sue me, I'm a rogue, and our talents are less than riveting).
    It's going to be a bigger deal than the flying debate in WoD. I anticipate massive threads bitching about it. It makes absolutely no sense. It's not fun, it's not exciting, it doesn't add to the gameplay at all. It's just boring and tedious. It's by far the worst change they've made with Legion, and maybe the worst change in any expansion.

    I had this feeling when they announced it. It was confirmed when I got on the ptr. Now I'm on the beta and leveling and...it's even worse than I thought it would be. It's so so bad. They clearly design the talents for you to swap for certain situations, then they handcuff you to prevent you from being able to do so. And the Inscription glyph is a terrible 'solution' to a problem that they created. The prices are going to be manipulated and massive.

    I suspect they'll revert it at some point. The backlash is going to be huge.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizendragon View Post
    If you're simply rejecting the dev team's reasons then we don't have much more to discuss. I agree with Ion. You do not. I guess we'll have to leave it there. I simply find a bunch of this mouth frothing nothing more than butthurt, spoiled child, tantrums. I WANT MY TOY BACK! :'(

    Edit: to add to that - It's pretty obvious that they have started designing around a larger view distance. They want to reduce the amount of information (yes that is a player power) one can have on the screen at one time via seeing what is 200+ yards away from you without panning the camera that way. If you don't like that then so be it.
    I'm rejecting it, because every single point mentioned in it has been already thoroughly dissected, confronted with arguments and refuted in its entirety in multiple threads, both here in MMO-C and official forums. I won't do you the favor of repeating the entirety of them. I already touched some of them, but your answers are memes and Watcher's post. Not arguments. You're just fanboying and call it "facts, logic and arguments"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeh View Post
    It's going to be a bigger deal than the flying debate in WoD. I anticipate massive threads bitching about it. It makes absolutely no sense. It's not fun, it's not exciting, it doesn't add to the gameplay at all. It's just boring and tedious. It's by far the worst change they've made with Legion, and maybe the worst change in any expansion.

    I had this feeling when they announced it. It was confirmed when I got on the ptr. Now I'm on the beta and leveling and...it's even worse than I thought it would be. It's so so bad. They clearly design the talents for you to swap for certain situations, then they handcuff you to prevent you from being able to do so. And the Inscription glyph is a terrible 'solution' to a problem that they created. The prices are going to be manipulated and massive.

    I suspect they'll revert it at some point. The backlash is going to be huge.
    While i personally don't like the change as well, everything you post will not happen. It's a change the players brought to themselves, by whining about the gold cost to respec. The talent swap change has stayed for months in beta, hasn't attracted the attention of the flying issue and will definitely not be changed now. It's a change of gameplay and i can accept it, personally. it's just more costly to change talents, that's all.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabinas View Post
    While i personally don't like the change as well, everything you post will not happen. It's a change the players brought to themselves, by whining about the gold cost to respec.
    That makes zero sense. So players complain about a gold sink to change specs, so Blizzard's reaction is to make a gold sink to change talents outside of cities/inns?

    The current policy in Legion is completely backwards from what it should be. Changing a spec is a lot more impactful and meaningful, and therefore should have the greater restriction. Talents are just slightly different ways to fight. Much less significance, and therefore should be a lot more free to change. I don't know who at Blizzard decided to go this route, but they completely fail at logic or even basic common sense.

  20. #60
    Funny part is people complain the game is too easy, and the minute Blizzard does something that might make the game a little harder for them they start complaining.

    It's kind of funny when you think about it.

    Is it annoying? Yes, but we'll adapt.. in one month after launch nobody will even think about it anymore.

    I agree however that this game is not meant to be played with Diablo 3's zoom factor... but when you have done it for the last 10 years, it might be too late to do this change.

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