[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Deleted]

? I didnt even say anything

You have now. Flavor added.

[Shieldi]

? I didnt even say anything

i couldn't help but laugh Lazel gets dragged into this for whatever reason

anyways that video proves nothing but his method of testing made me giggle, so theres that

[flzk]

so this bastion of light replacing hotr instead of blessed hammer is a bug right ?

[Komanchi]

so this bastion of light replacing hotr instead of blessed hammer is a bug right ?

check the 7.0.3 hotfix post. they swapped the 15 and 30 tiers

::edited::

this bug was a result of the above change

[Burglah]

A little off-topic, but---

For pre-patch, how does our gearing optimization change? As far as weapon enchants/trinkets/etc for damage.

[celinamuna]

A little off-topic, but---

For pre-patch, how does our gearing optimization change? As far as weapon enchants/trinkets/etc for damage.

Versatility becomes better for survival. Crit will become weaker for survival.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Just how much will I be gimping myself if I go with HS or CH instead of Blessed Hammer? I know I'm in the minority here, and it's all a matter of taste - maybe I'll even come around in time - but I've been watching the video for our spell special effects, and I just can't get into BH right now. I spent weeks farming a transmog hammer that I love, and even before that I loved the sound and feel of HoR. Probably goes back to my early days tanking Trial of the Champion in Northrend (the heroic dungeon) and hearing Eadric use it. Bottom line is, I get more visceral satisfaction out of mashing a button and seeing/hearing my toon hit something hard with his hammer than I do hearing a swish as he tosses this gold thing that floats around bumping stuff occasionally (you all probably think I'm crazy lol).

So how 'bout it. How much would I be gimping myself?

- - - Updated - - -

Anyway, here's physical damage comparison between BH and HS :
http://i.imgur.com/DooXXsH.png

Am I reading this right? That you did more DPS with Holy Shield? I distinctly remember you telling me how much better BH was for DPS and in most cases survivability. Maybe I'm looking at this wrong?

[Veyloris]

So how 'bout it. How much would I be gimping myself?

At the risk of sounding rude, I feel like you're just wanting someone to say "Oh it won't be too bad!". BH is very good. You will be missing out on a fair portion of damage and mitigation. If you go Holy Shield you'll close some of the gap for mitigation, but you're still lagging behind by like 5% defensively and more than that offensively.

It will be outright worse by a considerable margin, and if you're considering going with personal taste over a significant performance gain, the answer of how much of a deficit you'll be at is kind of unimportant, right?

CH will be very bad, HS will be kind of bad. If you're wondering about the specific numbers, look a few posts back for the post from Cel for BH vs. HS. I can't post links, but it's comment 10818 in this thread.

EDIT: For your edit: that's the damage done by the mob to Cel, not the damage done by Cel to the mob.

[Burglah]

So how 'bout it. How much would I be gimping myself?

Just to echo the other reply, you are in a theorycrafting thread almost completely dedicated to maximizing performance at the highest end of Legion's content. As always, if you are not going to raid or are going to casually dip into mythic dungeons, play what you want. You have people in this thread delivering objective data so I don't understand your constant effort to go against the grain.

[Bearygood]

This may be a dumb question but,

Why is everyone talking about Final stand being the best thing since bread. Like a must have talent for everything.

Isn't this just a bubble taunt that aoes? It'd be pretty useless for bosses with 1-2 mobs wouldn't it?

[Veyloris]

Who is talking about Final stand being amazing?

In other news, is Seraphim even worth taking for the next few weeks? Seems like the survival cost is extraordinarily steep.

Savior's boon mythic 2/2 procs at 61%. Still even worth to us? Proc damage is way down, too.

[Adaren]

Just to echo the other reply, you are in a theorycrafting thread almost completely dedicated to maximizing performance at the highest end of Legion's content. As always, if you are not going to raid or are going to casually dip into mythic dungeons, play what you want. You have people in this thread delivering objective data so I don't understand your constant effort to go against the grain.

An objective data-driven answer is exactly what they're asking for, though. They want the benefits of each talent to be quantified as much as possible, not just "BH is best by a lot Q.E.D."

I'm personally curious about BH vs. CH. I know there was some napkin math a few pages back, but:
- BH has since been nerfed
- It assumed 3 hits for BH; how consistent is that versus enemies with smaller hitboxes?
- it didn't take into account Grand Crusader procs

I think "How far ahead is BH?" is a perfectly reasonable question, and it's the first step to determining in what (if any) situations the other two talents are better.

[Veyloris]

HotR is 9035-10308 damage, whereas BH is 5623 damage. On a single humanoid sized target, if you stand at max melee range you guarantee 2 hits from BH. On any mob with a model larger than that, 3 hits is virtually guaranteed. BH is more than half of HotR's damage.

The defensive value of 15% DR on a melee vs. an additional shield from Bulwark is almost not a comparison. Bulwark is a 20k shield for me, and bosses melee for several hundred thousand. Even in a world where a boss only melees for 100k (which is nowhere near the case, but WoL is down), BH would be providing more mitigation by the simple fact that it would be providing that reduction much more frequently than the Bulwark shield. GC is a worse defensive proc than before by far.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

At the risk of sounding rude, I feel like you're just wanting someone to say "Oh it won't be too bad!". BH is very good. You will be missing out on a fair portion of damage and mitigation. If you go Holy Shield you'll close some of the gap for mitigation, but you're still lagging behind by like 5% defensively and more than that offensively.

It will be outright worse by a considerable margin, and if you're considering going with personal taste over a significant performance gain, the answer of how much of a deficit you'll be at is kind of unimportant, right?

CH will be very bad, HS will be kind of bad. If you're wondering about the specific numbers, look a few posts back for the post from Cel for BH vs. HS. I can't post links, but it's comment 10818 in this thread.

EDIT: For your edit: that's the damage done by the mob to Cel, not the damage done by Cel to the mob.

Thanks for the clarification on the graphic. I wanted a straight answer. I play the game in different ways at different times, from progression raiding with my guild to role playing on my various alts (my pally is a favorite alt). Sometimes I raid on those alts too, and have to get more serious with them. I often have to decide between the talents and specs I prefer for fun and the ones expected for raiding.

I believe rather strongly that the only way to win this game is to have fun, but of course I want to pull my weight when I join a group. Hence the question: is this a big difference with one answer that's always right, or a close call with one that's usually right. Sounds like you are saying the former. I will look at 10818. Cel has been very helpful in this thread and I appreciate his expertise.

- - - Updated - - -

An objective data-driven answer is exactly what they're asking for, though. They want the benefits of each talent to be quantified as much as possible, not just "BH is best by a lot Q.E.D."

I'm personally curious about BH vs. CH. I know there was some napkin math a few pages back, but:
- BH has since been nerfed
- It assumed 3 hits for BH; how consistent is that versus enemies with smaller hitboxes?
- it didn't take into account Grand Crusader procs

I think "How far ahead is BH?" is a perfectly reasonable question, and it's the first step to determining in what (if any) situations the other two talents are better.

Sums my question up nicely, thanks.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to echo the other reply, you are in a theorycrafting thread almost completely dedicated to maximizing performance at the highest end of Legion's content. As always, if you are not going to raid or are going to casually dip into mythic dungeons, play what you want. You have people in this thread delivering objective data so I don't understand your constant effort to go against the grain.

My apologies. I thought "[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion" was a thread for discussing protection paladins in Legion. Did not realize it was for min-maxers only.

Honestly, I am intelligent enough to follow and benifit from the theory-crafting discussions, even if I don't focus on min-maxing all the time. I do like to make informed decisions on when/if to sacrifice performance for fun.

[Won7on]

@celinamuna/liminara, whatever your name is :P

I see you said the priority is J > BH > AS > Cons. If you're only at 1 or 2 charges of BH, wouldn't it be more beneficial to put it last in the priority? So, essentially J > BH (to avoid capping charges/keep up debuff) > AS > Cons > BH? I seem to be fine with this priority, even having empty globals once in a while. Maybe that'll change if mobs are hitting me for more GC procs?

[Vergilius]

I haven't kept up with this shit for 6 months so can someone please tell me what talents I should get so I don't have to read the 200 pages I missed

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I haven't kept up with this shit for 6 months so can someone please tell me what talents I should get so I don't have to read the 200 pages I missed

Not the last word, but a good place to start:
http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/protect...builds-talents

[kirielle]

Curious if class trinket is as bad as it seems from my limited playtime so far. Also, Shadowmoon enchant for weapons now? Not sure what the uptime would be compared to Warsong.

[Deleted]

My Mythic WF class trinkets procs at 63% hp (I think) can't imagine I'll be able to get it to proc more than a couple of times per fight and on top of that the damage it does has been nerfed.
Don't see it been any good at all now.

Would be interested in which 2 trinkets are highest dps now not been paying enough attention to know how much the other trinkets have been changed.

[OrcinusDrake]

Fun fact, training dummies now ramp their damage over time. But I think if you avoid the ability it resets.