1. #2901
    Brewmaster Uzkin's Avatar
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    IMO, Charred Remains was horrible, and almost impossible to tune properly without screwing up the alternative builds. If they had only removed CR and buffed RoF to enable FnB AoE against medium-sized packs, and added the Artifact on top of that, we'd have a much better spec than what we have now.

    It feels like Blizzard thought that "not much change needed, except for some polish" meant the same as "lets make some random changes without really putting any thought or effort into it". Rarely have I seen such a poor and lazy design as in Legion destro. We just got several baseline abilities turned into talents, supplemented by a couple of very lazy, unconnected, stand-alone new nuke designs: Channel Demonfire and Dimensional Rift. Oh look, a nuke with cooldown, without any interaction with the rest of the rotation. How inspired. Player feedback managed to improve the initial mess a bit; such as giving Incinerate at least *some* interaction with something (the Rifts) instead of being a completely bland filler, making the Rifts instant, and allowing RoFs to stack. The "spec" they tried to initially force upon us really underlines the fact that no effort whatsoever was given to destro. And even worse, since it was introduced so late in alpha the players didn't really have enough time to fix it. The designer thought process probably went something like "Hey, destro has a spell called chaos bolt. Chaos. Random. Lets make destro playstyle really RNG oriented. Phew, now that that's done, lets get back to designing the other more important classes."

    Fire mage, for example, is like from a different planet in comparison.

  2. #2902
    Quote Originally Posted by urdasergiu View Post
    At least in wod incinerate generated embers, now in legion it has 5% chance to generate a rift charge iei.
    And that is with a crap ton of AP invested and not baseline.

  3. #2903
    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    And that is with a crap ton of AP invested and not baseline.
    A crap ton? Yeah I don't think so. You can literally get that trait day 1 of being level 110.

  4. #2904
    That Shadowburn nerf was so expected, just a matter of when. And still Chaos Bolt still hits nothing in PvP. So instead of buffing it, let's nerf the alternative spell. Typical Blizz.

  5. #2905
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by App View Post
    A crap ton? Yeah I don't think so. You can literally get that trait day 1 of being level 110.
    Only if you go that route first, otherwise "crap ton" is justified IMHO as you need rank 19 after going Lord of Flames first.

  6. #2906
    Quote Originally Posted by App View Post
    A crap ton? Yeah I don't think so. You can literally get that trait day 1 of being level 110.
    And then it takes you a week to get to the next golden trait, the one that you actually want, Lord of Flames.

  7. #2907
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    And then it takes you a week to get to the next golden trait, the one that you actually want, Lord of Flames.
    You will have your second gold trait quite soon after hitting 110, don't make such a big deal out of it. Also you take Lord of Flames first.

  8. #2908
    Deleted
    looks like I am going to be a warlock with LEGION

    Let's hope either Destruction or Affliction is the most fun/best dps spec, because I really don't wanna play Demonology ^^

  9. #2909
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ji-tae View Post
    looks like I am going to be a warlock with LEGION

    Let's hope either Destruction or Affliction is the most fun/best dps spec, because I really don't wanna play Demonology ^^
    I'm honestly really worried about locks.

    Affliction has an AoE niche thanks to Soul Flame (And partially Seed of Corruption and Soul Effigy). See Scorpyron fight for example.

    Destruction has high uptime cleave, "permanent" with talent.

    Demonology is mechanically broken, with the all the downsides of a dot spec (Mostly ramp up time + slow target switching) and pretty much none of the benefits (Multidot galore, demonology only has doom, and no real cleave outside of felguard + implosion).

    Can the numbers make up for those things? Sure. But there has been situations in the past where they end up overnerfing things, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have to dance between all 3 specs as warlock on a regular basis, since "OP" stuff gets nerfed (Soul Flame, GrimSac for Aff, Destro Cleave, etc). I know that locks have a pretty good track record, but they have also often had periods of downtime for their specs where they got nerfed too much as a "kneejerk" reaction to something being too strong.

    Am I being paranoid?

  10. #2910
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    Am I being paranoid?
    Not imo. I've been saying for years that warlocks were a poorly designed but well performing class.

    Thankfully Blizzard don't seem to mind balancing acts in the middle of tiers, so there's hope yet, as annoying as having to swap artifact might be.
    These days I just hope that the expansion in general is good. Good class design kept me happy when Cata had poor raiding, good expansion / raid design kept me happy when I loathed the MOP class design. WOD felt like it had neither (though the biggest problem was quantity), I hope Legion rectifies that.

  11. #2911
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    @Smog I know, what I was saying was that charges are not where this complexity is coming from, roaring blaze is. Again if you change or remove roaring blazes mechanic then this entire conversation and the confusion around it goes away.



    That 3rd conflag charge doesn't go anywhere, again the CD's do not recharge simultaneously. You're just shifting when that conflag happens to smooth out the rotation.
    But shifting that conflag means the ones you just spent aren't worth as much. 2 conflags + one later != 3 conflags in a row.

    immo > conflag x2 > things > immo clipping pandemic window > conflag x3

    vs

    immo > immo > conflag x3 > things > immo clipping pandemic window > conflag x3

    Baseline, 1 takes 4.5 seconds to cast (Immolate and conflag both have 1.5 sec "cast" time) and 2 takes 7.5 seconds to cast.

    Baseline, the two resulting immolates will be: 390 * 1.6 * 1.6 = 998.4% over 18 seconds and 390 * 1.33 (pandemic) * 1.6 * 1.6 * 1.6 = 2124.6% over 24 seconds.

    Furthermore, 2 immolates both have a chance to grant a shard, which means you have a higher chance of being able to use 2+ chaos bolts between immolate reapplication.

    I just don't see why you would ever sit on a conflag charge. It doesn't scale linearly after each cast, so saying that as long as they are charging up the result is the same simply isn't true. Edit: It would be true if Roaring Blaze didn't benefit from itself, but it does. Therefore you can't just look at the charges and disregard consecutive casts.

    Edit:

    I mean, conflag is essentially dealing bonus damage. First conflag on regular immolate dot: Conflag damage + 234% SP. Second conflag: Conflag damage + 374.4% SP. Third conflag: Conflag damage + 599.04% SP. Disregarding the conflag damage itself, that third one deals as much as 1 and 2 combined. When using immolate twice, those bonuses should be multiplied by 1.33 (or 1.3? Can't remember how much pandemic is).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    Not imo. I've been saying for years that warlocks were a poorly designed but well performing class.

    Thankfully Blizzard don't seem to mind balancing acts in the middle of tiers, so there's hope yet, as annoying as having to swap artifact might be.
    These days I just hope that the expansion in general is good. Good class design kept me happy when Cata had poor raiding, good expansion / raid design kept me happy when I loathed the MOP class design. WOD felt like it had neither (though the biggest problem was quantity), I hope Legion rectifies that.
    Well, Legion content is definitely A+ in my book, best in WoW ever in my opinion. I just never liked playing a class / spec where even if you outgear everyone else and play the class to "perfection" you end up being beaten by players with worse gear or simply worse players. On one hand I want to believe they can balance it correctly, but on the other hand we have a lot of situations where we end up without something as basic as an interrupt. As far as I know, no other class has to decide whether they want an interrupt or not, and some even get rewarded for interrupting.
    Last edited by mmoc738030ea5a; 2016-07-18 at 12:13 PM.

  12. #2912
    Quote Originally Posted by Degn89 View Post
    snip
    Honestly if they keep nerfing incinerate like they've been its gonna get to that point where we damn near want to use immolate for filler like people have been joking about. Think the 2 of our 15 talents would be the only thing making us not want to.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  13. #2913
    Dreadlord FurtyIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tehterokkar View Post
    And then it takes you a week to get to the next golden trait, the one that you actually want, Lord of Flames.
    Most definitely won't be going Lord of Flames first. Probably last, actually.

  14. #2914
    Quote Originally Posted by FurtyIRL View Post
    Most definitely won't be going Lord of Flames first. Probably last, actually.
    Why's that?
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  15. #2915
    Dreadlord FurtyIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Why's that?
    On a single target, Lord of Flames is about 80% more damage than your Doomguard will do (which isn't much). If LoF can't take full advantage of AoE for most of its duration it's a fairly ineffectual point investment over the course of a progression length encounter. I can't think of (m)any situations where LoF would be more useful to be during progress than investing in other traits. It definitely comes out to a nice DPS meter increase on some of the EN fights, but it's mostly just useless pad damage. There isn't really any situations that happen once a fight where you're thinking, "if we can just survive this massive wave of adds the rest of the fight is a lot easier".

    This obviously comes with a very progression focused mindset, and I have to admit LoF is kind of cool but I don't see it having the same benefit on your ability to kill a boss earlier than other people as the investment in other points

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think you can get around 21 Artifact traits by the time Mythic unlocks; I imagine my Artifact would look something like this if I was optimizing purely for the pursuit of killing raid bosses efficiently:

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...MuATMAEzEBVLAQ

  16. #2916
    Quote Originally Posted by FurtyIRL View Post
    I think you can get around 21 Artifact traits by the time Mythic unlocks; I imagine my Artifact would look something like this if I was optimizing purely for the pursuit of killing raid bosses efficiently:

    http://legion.wowhead.com/artifact-c...MuATMAEzEBVLAQ
    No Burning Hunger / Impish Incineration? I thought that was the main reason people were leaning towards going for Lord of Flames first.

  17. #2917
    Dreadlord FurtyIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by striderZA View Post
    No Burning Hunger / Impish Incineration? I thought that was the main reason people were leaning towards going for Lord of Flames first.
    Yeah, those are great traits for sure. I think you have to consider it as a macro concept though. Starting from the first trait, you've already invested 10 of your 21 points clearing that arm of the tree. You have just enough points to get Dimension Ripper, but you don't have Residual Flames or CoC. If you go up for CoC, you miss out on all the valuable clusters at the bottom and Dimension Ripper. Overall I think the Dimension Ripper + CoC arms of the tree are a lot stronger of a package.

  18. #2918
    degn89...could see how you got the first conflag + 234 sp. the second and third I have no idea I understand there is less time of the immolate left..but those numbers seems a bit off for me. If you care to explain id be grateful

  19. #2919
    Quote Originally Posted by FurtyIRL View Post
    Yeah, those are great traits for sure. I think you have to consider it as a macro concept though. Starting from the first trait, you've already invested 10 of your 21 points clearing that arm of the tree. You have just enough points to get Dimension Ripper, but you don't have Residual Flames or CoC. If you go up for CoC, you miss out on all the valuable clusters at the bottom and Dimension Ripper. Overall I think the Dimension Ripper + CoC arms of the tree are a lot stronger of a package.
    I'm curious what makes you say that, CoC itself is arguably one of the weaker traits in the entire tree. The 18% immolate dmg is solid, but you have to straight up waste 3 levels to get to it (though the eternal struggle just saw a fairly hefty nerf)

    Whereas the the imp is easily one of our highest dmg sources, 24% crit to immo means more shards as well as a dmg increase, and lord of flames is fairly significant on demand burst. Looking at a normal trilliax log we did this past week the one infernal cast I did did 1.9m dmg, whereas my dg's were doing 700k on average, which is a bit more than 80% over dg. Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe there's any player buffs on trilliax to cause a discrepancy there. I did cast it during hero, but that's not going to make it almost triple the dg's dmg I don't imagine.

    I just don't really see CoC and flat immolate dmg being worth losing all that, I wouldn't be surprised if impish incineration by itself was worth more than CoC. So out of curiosity whats pushing you towards the coc path?
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  20. #2920
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Lord of Flames is easily triple damage of Doomguard single target, it is easily the first thing to take because besides being pretty uber damage for single GCD it is also amazing "oh shit" ability during leveling and later in Suramar when you get your ass busted by some detector in the middle of a frikkin army.

    If you time it for AoE then it's total lol cakes, while CoC is pretty anemic in comparison.

    Besides the way to Lord of Flames is filled by fantastic traits, well except for Eternal Struggle which is shit.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2016-07-18 at 04:23 PM.

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