[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Redblade]

btw if dps balance has taught us ANYTHING redblade, having people balanced around such a tight margin is not very possible all the time.

I disagree, if Blizzard was willing to they could balance classes every week by tweaking passives a percent up or down here and there to make all DPS specs perform within a 5% margin.

In terms of how ret will be for raid spots and such, most people will still only pick what the top 10 guilds will do which is stack those 15 mages and not even worry about other specs and classes because thats how it works.

It becomes a problem the higher you go on the rankings so unless you're happy with raiding in that world 2-3000 guild then it's going to affect us negatively. Which is why I'm for Blizzard doing the balancing above.

for PVE ret is very much alive and well and could have some interesting use.

I don't care about interesting use if we're under performing, I care about being able to be competitive in terms of DPS.

[Teleros]

Keep in mind when Justicar's Vengeance does less damage, it also does less healing. So bad mobility, bad damage, bad survival...pretty great.

Well at least they're not nerfing JV damage.

So the question is whether 70% TV damage for 3 HP is still superior to 100% JV damage for 5 HP.

Edit: With those changes in PvP, finishers basically are regular attacks. Mastery is reduced to 25% of its listed value, meaning Judgment is basically a non-mechanic in PvP beyond doing damage. It literally doesn't buff our finishers in any meaningful way.

Which is also very amusing given how they pushed the new Mastery onto Rets. On the plus side it does make Lawbringer less mandatory*, given how little use the debuff will be.

*Only less mandatory though. 5% of 2M health is 100k damage, on top of Judgement's normal damage.

= + =

In terms of PvP stat templates, some comparisons:

85% Primary Stats: Blood DK (80%), Windwalker Monk, Retribution Paladin, Subtlety Rogue, Fury Warrior.
-25 Baseline Damage: Blood DK, Vengeance DH, Guardian Druid, Brewmaster Monk, Mistweaver Monk, Holy Paladin, Protection Paladin, Holy Priest, Restoration Shaman, Protection Warrior.
130% Primary Stats: Fire Mage, Frost Mage.

[Deleted]

retribution is a gain over GBOM for atleast the first 90 seconds.

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not compensation, a counter. nobody ever dies the buff does its job, you lose nothing, you gain nothing.

a person dies with your buff, you lose an average of 3% damage but that death grants you 20% damage for 20 secs. You dont see a net loss till over atleast 90 secs on average.

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on the pvp 110 dummy i can average 120k-130k on a 5 min 30 sec test and burst up to 200k. not to sound harsh here, but maybe you aren't playing it right. to your credit tho, i have played other classes (enh shaman, aff lock) who do higher damage, but i've also played classes ( ele shaman) who've done less. and this is with only 1 might buff.

By all means school me. I tried just about anything. Sure you didn't just get really lucky with DP procs?
Though 110-120k was near the ballpark i was getting. Actually adding one might buff it sounds about the same.

I really want to know what sort of rotations everyone comes up with. I prio WoA>Judgement>BoW>CS. During judgment i TV when i got 3HP or more and fill a global with a generator before another TV if i got the HP, otherwise have to generate more. It's quite literally all over the place.

I would love it if it was a "not playing it right issue" cause then there wouod be some saving this disgrace. I've been through this quite a few times but no magic sauce appeared yet.

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on a 2 min fight i average about 130-180k dps with 815 ilvl with a 821 weapon and 16 traits unlocked on a purely ST fight (if im running Divine Hammer for just general AoE throughout the dungeon or BoJ with VB).

Sounds just as bad. pvp premades are 806ilvl i believe. Performed around 110-120k on average with me (without blessings).

[Deleted]

Isn't the premade gear plagued with mastery?

Would explain the downtime you experienced. With actual gear you've received while leveling that shouldn't be the case at all.

[Redblade]

I really want to know what sort of rotations everyone comes up with. I prio WoA>Judgement>BoW>CS. During judgment i TV when i got 3HP or more and fill a global with a generator before another TV if i got the HP, otherwise have to generate more. It's quite literally all over the place.

I would love it if it was a "not playing it right issue" cause then there wouod be some saving this disgrace. I've been through this quite a few times but no magic sauce appeared yet.

They could start with making the Judgment buff not be time based but instead grant two stacks of damage boost for your finishers and cap the amount of stacks you can have at any given time to three. That way you could actually get some control over the rotation.

[Deleted]

Isn't the premade gear plagued with mastery?

Would explain the downtime you experienced. With actual gear you've received while leveling that shouldn't be the case at all.

You make it sound like 20% mastery makes a huge deal (these are single target tests so it's in full use). Are we moving down to the next excuse? I've tried this at different haste levels due to crusade. Yeah you only want 30% to get one more global on the judge window. It is not gonna fix any rotations or outputs by a huge degree. The problem is not a cooldown problem (besides execution sentence), it's how the mechanics clash and are inneficient. Abilities that generate no HP but have globals, abilities that generate 2 or 5HP with a cap of 5 HP. None of it works. There is waste all over the place.

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They could start with making the Judgment buff not be time based but instead grant two stacks of damage boost for your finishers and cap the amount of stacks you can have at any given time to three. That way you could actually get some control over the rotation.

How i wish they did. Almost anything is better than this nonsense. Heck TBC Ret was more fun than this... not cause it was busier, but because it made sense how to maximise it.

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Nemmar;41440447]You make it sound like 20% mastery makes a huge deal. Are we moving down to the next excuse? I've tried this at different haste levels due to crusade. Yeah you only want 30% to get one more global on the judge window. It is not gonna fix any rotations or outputs by a huge degree.

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Did I attack you in any way? I just asked you a question.

From all legit sources I hear/read that we target 30% haste because we should not get any downtime at this point. And iirc the premade gear is absolutely garbage for us because of the wrong itemization.

[Deleted]

retribution is a gain over GBOM for atleast the first 90 seconds.
.

Retribution is 20% for 10 seconds, GBoM is an average of 3%. That's a maximum of 67 seconds on average.

[Redblade]

How i wish they did. Almost anything is better than this nonsense. Heck TBC Ret was more fun than this... not cause it was busier, but because it made sense how to maximise it.

Yeah, it's not that it plays bad in a larger sense it's just lacking structure atm. Also, what's up with judgment not giving us a visible buff to track...

[Alindra]

Retribution is 20% for 10 seconds, GBoM is an average of 3%. That's a maximum of 67 seconds on average.

Retribution used to be +50% dmg for 10s, but it's currently +20% dmg (and -30% dmg taken) for 20 seconds. (wowhead link)

[Deleted]

[QUOTE=Qwayne84;41440607]

You make it sound like 20% mastery makes a huge deal. Are we moving down to the next excuse? I've tried this at different haste levels due to crusade. Yeah you only want 30% to get one more global on the judge window. It is not gonna fix any rotations or outputs by a huge degree.

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Did I attack you in any way? I just asked you a question.

From all legit sources I hear/read that we target 30% haste because we should not get any downtime at this point. And iirc the premade gear is absolutely garbage for us because of the wrong itemization.

I'm sorry if it sounded that way. But some people on these forums keep giving excuses and saying that it gets better with either haste or wake of ashes and it really doesnt. It's just as bad (actually worse with wake).
Haste reduces downtime a bit but it doesn't remove it. It's more for the extra GCD during the Judge window.


I do have a repair to make though. The class i said did 50k extra DPS actually doesnt. It was an annoying stormwind rat that kept getting cleaved. Once i removed it, the damage numbers seem to be on the same ball park. So, numbers wise, it seems ok. But of course, the mess that is the spec in terms of gameplay just won't go away.

[seeltas92]

So guys, in conclusion, what do you think is the new stat priority + "best talents" when prepatch hits?


My suggestion is:

Mastery > Crit > Haste

FV -> TFoJ -> VB -> JV -> DP

Trinket: Archi + UH

My suggestion is just based on how ret "felt" while playing on ptr

[Daralii]

So guys, in conclusion, what do you think is the new stat priority + "best talents" when prepatch hits?


My suggestion is:

Mastery > Crit > Haste

FV -> TFoJ -> VB -> JV -> DP

Trinket: Archi + UH

My suggestion is just based on how ret "felt" while playing on ptr

Most recent I heard was strength > haste > crit > mastery = versatility, from the ret community on the Bnet forums.

[seeltas92]

Most recent I heard was strength > haste > crit > mastery = versatility, from the ret community on the Bnet forums.

Mastery is so bad? Didnt expect that
But why should haste be the best stat? because of gcd and cd reduction?

[OrcsRLame]

I would think crit > vers > mastery > haste. I mean, during Heroism and Crusade, I would think any haste on gear would be wasted and mastery just seems like shit. So that would leave crit as our definitive best stat and vers as second best.

Keep in mind I am not a simulator and this is purely anecdotal.

Actually, assuming Judgment has 100% uptime, is mastery more dps than vers?

[Lumineus]

GCD floor was lowered to 0.75s, even with lust and Crusade you should still have room for additional haste. Also lust is only once per fight and Crusade doesn't even last its full duration with 6/3 Wrath of the Ashbringer.

[Deleted]

Mastery is so bad? Didnt expect that
But why should haste be the best stat? because of gcd and cd reduction?

Unlike the other stats mastery only benefits few spells, even less than before. Adding to that it's scaling, especially with low haste, isn't great, leading to crit being a better dps increase.
Due to the cd reduction, haste also increases the generation of Holy Power, allowing the use of more Holy Power spenders.

A very, very simplified example: imagine during a period of time you are able to use 2 TVs in one judge window on average. Y points of mastery would increase the TV dmg by 50%, whereas Haste would allow you to cast an additional TV. Therefore Haste has not an equal value to mastery, but also adds the dmg of more HP generators and more Judgements etc.

Haste just offers the best dps increase per point, crit being close seconds (iirc crit was the best stat until a few builds ago), whereas the mastery scaling is just to weak in comparison. In addition to that mastery also loses value in AoE situations, as it's benefits only applies to three targets (five with greater judgement).
The value of mastery increases with a few ashbringer traits and certain legendaries in legion (and good amounts of haste ofc), but without those the stat is just to weak in comparison.

Haste just mathematically outperforms Crit right now, even if you're overcapping during lust/hero, the rest of the time haste is just stronger. Additionally, while all stats increase the value of the other ones, haste has a bigger impact on the value of mastery (and the baseline mastery value) than crit does.
(Small Edit: I don't exactly know how much Haste is better, or if Crit overtakes it once again if certain amounts are reached)

Actually, assuming Judgment has 100% uptime, is mastery more dps than vers?

It's not the duration, it's the amount of Spenders cast during the duration, that's why mastery actually becomes considerable strong with the legendaries (TV/DS buffing the Damage of subsequent TVs/DSs and passive HoPo generation while wings are active). Basically, With either those or a good % of haste, mastery should be better than vers.

[garonne]

Retribution is 20% for 10 seconds, GBoM is an average of 3%. That's a maximum of 67 seconds on average.

unless it got hotfixed, the duration is 20 secs which got changed from when it was 50% for 10 secs to 20% for 20 secs.

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Isn't the premade gear plagued with mastery?

Would explain the downtime you experienced. With actual gear you've received while leveling that shouldn't be the case at all.

not at all, we're loaded with versatility

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By all means school me. I tried just about anything. Sure you didn't just get really lucky with DP procs?
Though 110-120k was near the ballpark i was getting. Actually adding one might buff it sounds about the same.

I really want to know what sort of rotations everyone comes up with. I prio WoA>Judgement>BoW>CS. During judgment i TV when i got 3HP or more and fill a global with a generator before another TV if i got the HP, otherwise have to generate more. It's quite literally all over the place.

I would love it if it was a "not playing it right issue" cause then there wouod be some saving this disgrace. I've been through this quite a few times but no magic sauce appeared yet.

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Sounds just as bad. pvp premades are 806ilvl i believe. Performed around 110-120k on average with me (without blessings).

sounds like you didnt use a gbom, correct me if im wrong, but with it thats around another 5-7k dps. also, with the new change to crusade, its better than DP for me however i got my best results with JV.

[seeltas92]

Haste just mathematically outperforms Crit right now, even if you're overcapping during lust/hero, the rest of the time haste is just stronger. Additionally, while all stats increase the value of the other ones, haste has a bigger impact on the value of mastery (and the baseline mastery value) than crit does.
(Small Edit: I don't exactly know how much Haste is better, or if Crit overtakes it once again if certain amounts are reached)

So it is:

Haste (Until u reach a certain percentage) > Crit > Mastery = Vers. (Where Mastery becomes > Vers. with more Haste)

And what talents should i take regarding those stat weights?

[Deleted]

unless it got hotfixed, the duration is 20 secs which got changed from when it was 50% for 10 secs to 20% for 20 secs.

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not at all, we're loaded with versatility

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sounds like you didnt use a gbom, correct me if im wrong, but with it thats around another 5-7k dps. also, with the new change to crusade, its better than DP for me however i got my best results with JV.

Yes, i did say that.