Talents and Zoom - blizzard, wtf?

[Deleted]

talentchoices are only choices if they can NOT be changed all the time just for some symbolic money.

choice means having to choose how your class will play, and somehow stick to it to a certain amount of time.

a choice that can always be changed isnt a choice at all. its just another kind of "temporery skill actionbar" for temporary access if its not limited in any way but for symbolic currency.

Switching talents is restricted: You can only switch them out of combat and this is all that matters. Who cares that you change your talents between fights? You will still be able to do so in Legion but you need an item or a port into a city. Why has talent switching to be more restricted than spec or gear switching?

[Fabinas]

It is not. FoV even in MMORPG is advantage. Or I will ask. What part of advantage of FoV doesn't apply in MMORPG?

Of course FoV is an advantage in a MMO. As are addons. You know, those totally external lua codes written by players and added to the game to gain an advantage? Not console commands who are part of the GAME.

I was once named and shamed in official forums by another player who directly accused me of botting, because i could undercut his 20 auctions in less than 10 seconds, while it took him 1 minute to post them manually. Clearly for him i was breaking the TOS. How could i do such thing? It was an unfair tactical advantage in the AH war.

TSM.

Geddit?

[Hyve]

Think you got this mixed up, the talent thing people got fairly accustomed to it once we got basically free tome of tranquil mind.

Camera change is one of the biggest fuck ups they have done the entire expansion, and if legion didnt look great otherwise I am sure this would cancel a crap ton of subs.

You're right. People will cancel their subscriptions on the basis the camera can't zoom out as much as it used to. Jesus, some fucking people these days ...

[Fabinas]

zoomout via makro was explained: it gives "unfairt" advantage to have a bigger viewpoint than for unexperienced non-makro users. so they increased standard zoomout and removed ultra zoomout by makro.


talentchoices are only choices if they can NOT be changed all the time just for some symbolic money.

choice means having to choose how your class will play, and somehow stick to it to a certain amount of time.

a choice that can always be changed isnt a choice at all. its just another kind of "temporery skill actionbar" for temporary access if its not limited in any way but for symbolic currency.

Another one who "contributes" without reading the thread. No need to copy/paste Watcher's shitpost. So if i use a larger zoom while questing and you don't, where is the unfair advantage? i win the game and you lose? are we in a competition?

But let's assume we are in a competition. And what if i have 3x 4k screens connected for HUGE screen estate? Am i not having an unfair advantage over 1280x960 screen resolution players? Rich tramble poor, so much parity in this game.

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You're right. People will cancel their subscriptions on the basis the camera can't zoom out as much as it used to. Jesus, some fucking people these days ...

While i am against the camera change (it shows), i am not cancelling my 4 subs. YET. If my raiding experience in Legion is severely hampered by this change, i will probably do. Others already have, some will. I don't expect it to be such a huge player exodus like with the flying fiasco. But you never know.

[Deleted]

shitSTORM incoming in 1(2) days

[ComputerNerd]

I was speaking about the effort i put in to tweak my UI, not welfare gear...

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If i leave, who is going to boost "inferior" people then? If people like me leave and you have no end-content progression, which probably you know nothing about, then we're left with a dying game. Stating the obvious, again, the majority, the casuals, need to see geared and skilled people in order for the concept of "greatness" to have a face, to materialize.

A major part of the reason why some players suck is the lack of opportunity.
Look at the levelling experience which is all about overpowering the content and denying people the opportunity to actually fall down, pick themselves up and learn something.
It is all about avoiding any failure.
Just like end-game where inflated requirements are all about minimising the risk of failure, minimising the leading you have to do and then blaming anyone else for the consequences of it.
Go leave, the sooner the better.

[Hyve]

While i am against the camera change (it shows), i am not cancelling my 4 subs. YET. If my raiding experience in Legion is severely hampered by this change, i will probably do. Others already have, some will. I don't expect it to be such a huge player exodus like with the flying fiasco. But you never know.

I could understanding (maybe) the change to Talents being too harsh and that being a factor, but camera zoom? I don't see it.

[Allatar]

Maybe they can introduce an achievement in a patch later on in the expansion where you have to visit every subzone in each BI zone, visit every faction-specific camp or town and quest hub, kill all rares and witness all of your factions /dance moves with the camera zoomed right in to 1st player view to unlock increased camera distance as a reward.

Call it 'Legion Viewfinder' or something?

Right?

/s (as if it was needed, but you never know round here).

[Tharkkun]

If they really want everyone to be equal or on a level playing field, they should just disable addons too. Watch the outcry when people no longer have boss mods and have to guess when something is coming, or no longer have weakauras to track parts of their gameplay.

They balance the encounters based on those add-ons existing already. That's why explosion timers or dying from a puddle are 1-2 seconds versus 3-4.

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Its unbalanced for melee, they are incapable of viewing the entire battlefield like the ranged do making is harder to react to mechanics. No one said its impossible, I'm sure you could do mythic first person if you wanted to prove a point but that doesn't mean is isn't bad for melee compared to ranged.

I never had any problems as a tank or melee when I raided as feral. I never once bumped my camera distance. It's more of a personal preference.

[Hctaz]

LOL. If anyone cancelled their sub for the reason of not having max cam distance in game they seriously need a word with themselves

It causes headaches and motion sickness on a lot of people. I suffer from the headaches too sometimes on live because I don't always play 100% zoomed out. When this happens I just zoom out more and it solves itself. Not sure entirely what causes this but I'm assuming it has something to do with being forced to stare at something "close up" instead of far away. Maybe relieves some mental stress? You know how doctors say you should take a break every hour and go stare at something farther away in reality? This might be an extension of that albeit on a purely mental level rather than physical.

[Fabinas]

I could understanding (maybe) the change to Talents being too harsh and that being a factor, but camera zoom? I don't see it.

BLeh, repeating the same and same stuff again to ppl who dont read the thread, but still "participate"...

Raid Leaders, Guide makers, Tanks, Melee and People with motion sickness are affected by this change. Who cares about the damn talents, we will have reagents. The only annoying thing about the talent change is that players brought it on themselves with their shortsighted bitching about gold cost on spec changing.

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LOL. If anyone cancelled their sub for the reason of not having max cam distance in game they seriously need a word with themselves

Man, stop being short sighted. Very few people play zoomed at max all the time. The change removes a huge range of zoom from the current max to the new max. All that distance is used situationally from most players. It's not the max we wanna play. It's the removal of the choice to do so or zoom a little more than the new max, IF NEEDED.

[Taeldorian]

Sure, but why are addons being allowed if that is their excuse? Addons provide a far greater advantage, yet they're leaving them in. This is why their justification is bullshit, because it is absolute bullshit to claim "fairness" while ignoring something that is extremely unfair.

Mm no. I disagree with the camera change overall, but your argument here isn't good. Here's why:

Addons like DBM are required for raiding. If you don't have it and your in a guild, they'll tell you to get it. I've been in multiple pug raids and guild raids who ask people if they have DBM. There is no way people have never heard about DBM, especially if they are planning on raiding.

The console command is different. It's not required, it's a tiny bit more beneficial but not required. I just now learned about it, I never knew about it beforehand. Why? Because it wasn't required, it wasn't a big deal if you had it or not so nobody really mentioned it, whereas DBM is a requirement, and is mentioned by anyone and everyone. If you look up "how to get started raiding on wow" that's what you'll find, but you won't find anything related to the console command if you look that up. DBM-like addons and this console command are far different. One is a requirement and one isn't. One is mentioned in every "how to start raiding" video and the console command isn't. Raids still mention "DBM required" and "do you have DBM", whereas no raid says "did you use the console command" or "console command required". There's a big difference between the two. Can't really compare them. Apples to oranges.

On topic:

As for the actual console command, I never used it and never knew about it before they just mentioned it recently and I've been raiding/pvping for a long long time. Now that I know about this console command, I understand what they mean by "unfair", but rather than adding the option of having that max zoom in the slider they just removed it. I would've loved to use it now that I know about it, but can't because it's removed.

I also understand they don't want people zooming out that far because it takes away from the character you play on and the world (immersion, in a sense). That's understandable, but they aren't making a game for themselves, they're making it for us (us being the players of course), and if people want the max camera zoom that the console command provided, they should be allowed to choose that option. If people don't want it, then they can choose not to use it. Choice in this situation is good.

[Unir]

Mm no. I disagree with the camera change overall, but your argument here isn't good. Here's why:

Addons like DBM are required for raiding. If you don't have it and your in a guild, they'll tell you to get it. I've been in multiple pug raids and guild raids who ask people if they have DBM. There is no way people have never heard about DBM, especially if they are planning on raiding.

The console command is different. It's not required, it's a tiny bit more beneficial but not required. I just now learned about it, I never knew about it beforehand. Why? Because it wasn't required, it wasn't a big deal if you had it or not so nobody really mentioned it, whereas DBM is a requirement, and is mentioned by anyone and everyone. If you look up "how to get started raiding on wow" that's what you'll find, but you won't find anything related to the console command if you look that up. DBM-like addons and this console command are far different. One is a requirement and one isn't. One is mentioned in every "how to start raiding" video and the console command isn't. Raids still mention "DBM required" and "do you have DBM", whereas no raid says "did you use the console command" or "console command required". There's a big difference between the two. Can't really compare them. Apples to oranges.

On topic:

As for the actual console command, I never used it and never knew about it before they just mentioned it recently and I've been raiding/pvping for a long long time. Now that I know about this console command, I understand what they mean by "unfair", but rather than adding the option of having that max zoom in the slider they just removed it. I would've loved to use it now that I know about it, but can't because it's removed.

I also understand they don't want people zooming out that far because it takes away from the character you play on and the world (immersion, in a sense). That's understandable, but they aren't making a game for themselves, they're making it for us (us being the players of course), and if people want the max camera zoom that the console command provided, they should be allowed to choose that option. If people don't want it, then they can choose not to use it. Choice in this situation is good.

Well no, your logic does not hold either. Add-ons like DBM are absolutely not required to play the game and raid. Sure plenty of guilds do require them, but they are not actually "required for raiding" as you suggest.

Conversely to your second point as well, plenty of guilds do tell you about or expect you to use the max zoom console command. A guild I was in did exactly that when we worked on the original Archimonde in Hyjal Summit lo these many 10+ years ago because the field you fight him in was so large.

The simple reality is that the reasons given by Blizzard are bullshit and they do not hold up to even the simplest scrutiny. The other simple truths are these: it's not even remotely "unfair" because it was available to everyone equally, it is no harder to get or find than an add-on like DBM for instance, and frankly - Blizzard's employees have been telling people how to use it on their own forums for years now.

How the hell is Blizzard going to suggest it was never intended this way when their own employees have been telling players how to do it? Now that's absurd.

Hopefully people will raise holy hell when this goes live, but we shall see I suppose.

[Tommy T]

Translation: "I don't think this is a problem, and anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot because I'm always right."

Reasons for translation:
-No real arguments or reasons given.
-No indication of type of content or class played to provide basis for a lack of need to zoom out. .
-Assumes anyone who dislikes the change has no real reason for it (else it would not be referred to as "moaning").
-Has never thought about whether there might be ways to do things better, but still feels free to dismiss anyone who does things differently.

People going on about the game being 'unplayable' is just over-reacting nonsense.

Well done on over analysing though.

[blackblade]

Hopefully people will raise holy hell when this goes live, but we shall see I suppose.

It really is an arbitrary change. The "but it gives people an unfair advantage" doesn't really hold water, imo. It doesn't really affect me all that much, but I can see how it feels like a handicap to a lot of players who are used to it.

The talent thing I feel like hasn't got enough publicity. It isn't a huuuuuge change (because scribes can provide items to let you respec in the field) but I feel like it will fuck some people up at launch.

[Wootmonkey]

shitSTORM incoming in 1(2) days

I think you are overestimating the amount of people who use the max camera disatance.

I started not using it after reading about the change to adjust and it's really not that big of a deal.

[Leyre]

Exactly this^ if people are going to do a "run home to mommy" and cancel their sub because of the camera change then why do they play games at all.. Since not many games allow the amount of zoom that WoW does at the moment..

at that is fine with THAT GAME, the devs of those games didnt took anything away from people just because the rest didnt want to use an extra feature that harmed no one

[ManiaCCC]

Of course FoV is an advantage in a MMO. As are addons. You know, those totally external lua codes written by players and added to the game to gain an advantage? Not console commands who are part of the GAME.

I was once named and shamed in official forums by another player who directly accused me of botting, because i could undercut his 20 auctions in less than 10 seconds, while it took him 1 minute to post them manually. Clearly for him i was breaking the TOS. How could i do such thing? It was an unfair tactical advantage in the AH war.

TSM.

Geddit?

So what..just because they wont fix every possible advantage given by addon or macro command, they should not fix anything? Camera script is one of these unfair advantages. Be happy they addressed at least something (well, you won't be probably happy because you somehow believe guild leaders can't properly command their groups without super FoV but..they fixed at least one issue).

You are repeating yourself again and again. Yes, addons can give you advantage. Even now but it is not valid reason why they shouldn't be fixing these issues at all. In another words, as you love to use it, it is BS excuse.. Now from your side.

[Unir]

So what..just because they wont fix every possible advantage given by addon or macro command, they should not fix anything? Camera script is one of these unfair advantages. Be happy they addressed at least something (well, you won't be probably happy because you somehow believe guild leaders can't properly command their groups without super FoV but..they fixed at least one issue).

You are repeating yourself again and again. Yes, addons can give you advantage. Even now but it is not valid reason why they shouldn't be fixing these issues at all. In another words, as you love to use it, it is BS excuse.. Now from your side.

The camera script at issue is not the least bit unfair and never was. It is equally available to everyone and always has been. Some add-ons did it for you, and it was baked right into their functionality. It was also as easily found as DBM or any other add-on or class guide, and has been for over ten years.

Quite frankly, the notion that it was "unfair" is completely destroyed by the fact that Blizzard's own employees routinely told players how to use the script on Blizzard's own forums. Are you suggesting that Blizzard employees intended to give some players an "unfair advantage?"

Even the argument "well some people didn't know about it!" has been removed now, because after all the kerfuffle over this absurd decision - NOW EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT IT.

The whole thing is just absurd.

[Demeia]

Im actually impressed at the sheer number of players with a sudden case of motion sickness.

Really? When we did Hans and Frans achievement I think we had 5 or 6 people that chose to die before the smashes because they got motion sickness.

I haven't actually seen the zoom in action--so I don't know how much of a problem it will be for me--but the number of people who get motion sickness easy is quite large. I can get motion sickness if I scroll down the screen too fast.

I sort of thought this whole zoom thing was about their not wanting to fix the issue so they are just saying they aren't supporting it. They should have actually gone with that argument. If true, they would have at least won points for honesty.

Did not know they added tomes but, yah, that's still annoying. Wondering if I need to level my scribe.