Optimal Ashbringer progression path?

[Rothg]

Howdy! I apologize if this is already out there somewhere, but I couldnt seem to find it. Is there an optimal progression path for the Ashrbringer traits yet? I realize everything is still in tuning, but Im really curious if I should be headed to Echo to Ashes to Ashes first.

Thanks in advance!

[seeltas92]

I think finalboss tv talked about it in his 2nd pass of his beta show about retri

[Zyky]

Most people I've talked to and the path I used on beta go the upper path all the way over to Echo of the Highlord, then go down to Wrath of the Ashbringer > Highlord's Judgement > Embrace of the Light > Divine Tempest then moving back over from Highlord's Judgement to Endless Resolve > Might of the Templar > Ashes to Ashes. After that its all personal preference.

[Zyky]

OK this may be controversial but I would suggest going for Ashes to Ashes first, then building up to 26+1 traits and respecing for all gold traits.

Ashes to Ashes is the only trait in the artifact that is a game changer, and it is a significant game changer. The other talents are just fluff. Sadly going for it first is the most inefficient path in the trait tree. The thing is, going for it then respecing will only set you back 2-3 days. If you can live with that, I'd suggest doing it. Otherwise you will have to wait until 29 traits earned for all gold traits instead of 26.

I agree Ashes to Ashes is a game changer, but you lose so much out of going to it first. You lose heavy sustained single target and AoE damage by going that way first.

[marinos]

Ashes to ashes is the best trait,you must go for it 1st no matter what.

[snackfeat]

An extra 5 holy power and significant AoE burst every 30 seconds. Stacking crusade to 10 in three globals with JV. I think it is worth it.

Are you talking PvP? Cause I don't think JV will ever be worth using in PvE, as it does only a tiny bit more damage than TV but costs 2 more HP.

[Rothg]

Thanks so much for the replies. It seems the consensus is to go for Ashes to Ashes first. Im a bit bummed at the loss of ST, but I guess I'll live with it!

For those of you on the beta, how long does it take to max out the artifact weapons?

[Zyky]

An extra 5 holy power and significant AoE burst every 30 seconds. Stacking crusade to 10 in three globals with JV. I think it is worth it.

opposed to losing 24% damage on blade of justice, 18% crit chance with crusader strike, 10% extra damage on Templar's Verdict/Divine Storm? Its not nearly as good. As for JV the damage per holy power is garbage especially when you factor in all of the damage boosts from the artifact.

[UR1L]

Ashes to Ashes first. Crusade is just too good and you need AtA to get fast stacks.

[Rothg]

Ashes to Ashes first. Crusade is just too good and you need AtA to get fast stacks.

Do you anticipate Crusade being the only viable choice? They've been buffing it so heavy handedly I'm afraid they are going to turn around and nerf it.

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Max out? You mean 54/54? Noone knows, I expect it would take 4-5 months of playing a lot.
35 traits though which is the more reasonable target to aim for should take you 3 months.

Sorry for the confusion, Im a tad ignorant since I'm not in the beta. Definitely meant 35 traits.

[Rothg]

Well it is either Crusade or Divine Purpose. Both are better paired with JV. Add 2,5/5 seconds to its duration with relics and Crusade probably pulls ahead. Honestly though you will be switching talents a lot as ret anyway so I'd expect the choice to change per encounter.

Ofc if you get the right legendaries Crusade will pull ahead very fast.

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That is a very weird way to see this.
The difference in going for Ashes to Ashes first or last is essentially delaying your third gold trait. You are exchanging Embrace the Light for Protector of the Ashen Blade (which is better in group environments), Highlord's Judgement for Righteous Blade and Divine Tempest for Ashes to Ashes. AtA is better than Divine Tempest and Righteous Blade largely covers the damage buff from Divine Tempest.
You were looking at it as if you'd only have 13 traits when the raids go up. You are more likely to have 20-21 traits by then (and a second Golden trait).

I've got another question for you, sort of off topic. If we take Crusade and have that huge haste buff, will we hit some sort of haste cap by popping Crusade during heroism? Will we still pop Crusade anyways?

[Zyky]

Well it is either Crusade or Divine Purpose. Both are better paired with JV. Add 2,5/5 seconds to its duration with relics and Crusade probably pulls ahead. Honestly though you will be switching talents a lot as ret anyway so I'd expect the choice to change per encounter.

Ofc if you get the right legendaries Crusade will pull ahead very fast.

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That is a very weird way to see this.
The difference in going for Ashes to Ashes first or last is essentially delaying your third gold trait. You are exchanging Embrace the Light for Protector of the Ashen Blade (which is better in group environments), Highlord's Judgement for Righteous Blade and Divine Tempest for Ashes to Ashes. AtA is better than Divine Tempest and Righteous Blade largely covers the damage buff from Divine Tempest.
You were looking at it as if you'd only have 13 traits when the raids go up. You are more likely to have 20-21 traits by then (and a second Golden trait).
These are the paths at 21 traits:
Ashes to Ashes then Echo of the Highlord
Ashes to Ashes then Divine Tempest
Echo of the Highlord then Divine Tempest


JVs damage per holy power certainly is much worse than TV is. But again, noone suggested you'd use it for dps. You would use it with Divine Purpose procs (where it does more damage even than a fully buffed TV, even if by a slight margin) or to stack Crusader in 3 globals instead of 5. Considering the alternatives in its row are not a dps gain, unless you needed the defensive cooldown from Eye for an Eye JV would be prefered. And again, many people will also be running Mythic+. Trash, raid boss adds and dungeon boss adds can be stunned and JV on a stunned mob is simply the best use of Holy Power.

If you're looking at it from a lazy perspective sure. I've put roughly 2 weeks into my ret pally on beta, and that's maybe an hour or two a day at max level. With only 2 artifact knowledge active. I'm sitting at 29 points right now.

As for TV vs JV baseline they're both Holy Damage abilities so they both bypass armor. JV does roughly 10k more damage at an 820IL via tooltip. TV does more damage when actually used over JV with an artifact that has both Echo of the Highlord and Might of the Templar.

[Deleted]

1. Ashes to Ashes
2. Echo
3. Tempest

imho, Ashes to Ashes is simply too good.

[Neldarie]

If you're looking at it from a lazy perspective sure. I've put roughly 2 weeks into my ret pally on beta, and that's maybe an hour or two a day at max level. With only 2 artifact knowledge active. I'm sitting at 29 points right now.

You're not sitting at 29 points right now...

And what the poster above me said. But after getting Echo id go +TV dmg (with cloak/2set) aka stall on third dragon for abit.

[Gracin]

If you're looking at it from a lazy perspective sure. I've put roughly 2 weeks into my ret pally on beta, and that's maybe an hour or two a day at max level. With only 2 artifact knowledge active. I'm sitting at 29 points right now.

Yea, gonna have to call bullshit on that 29 points after two weeks.

[Rawrzillasor]

guys zyky is clearly trolling you. its litterally impossible to have a 29 artifact after two weeks of one to two hours per day with only 2 artifact knowledge

[Deleted]

Also, on a side note why do you guys even consider taking Crusade?

Last time i checked(when it gave you 3% haste/dmg per HP spent) this talent was a DPS loss compared to not taking any 100lvl talents. So they bumped it up by 0,5% so, well now it might NOT be a dps loss but at what gain?

DP gives you a pure gain in dps w/o any loss or skill replacement and well, probly hard math is required when the things would be set in stone, but i have no idea how such pretty much crappy talent like a crusade is going to be any good while right now it competes with AW (35% dmg boost since second one, good for fast burst phase vs some ~42,5% dmg/haste at the ~10th second or later).

Not to mention that with progressing, and haste at around 30% (which seems to be some kind of cap as of right now), dimishing returns hit and those bonus haste % would lose it's weight. Not to mention that during BL/heroism the gain would be even worse + focking up our rotation totally.

Just wondering.

[Teleros]

But after getting Echo id go +TV dmg (with cloak/2set) aka stall on third dragon for abit.

Seems reasonable. Third dragon is after all just Divine Storm damage - it helps make up for Divine Storm & mastery not interacting very well, but I'm not convinced it's going to be that crucial a trait in general.

= + =

Also, on a side note why do you guys even consider taking Crusade?

Last time i checked(when it gave you 3% haste/dmg per HP spent) this talent was a DPS loss compared to not taking any 100lvl talents. So they bumped it up by 0,5% so, well now it might NOT be a dps loss but at what gain?

If it's a gain, it's a gain. The question is whether it's competitive compared to Divine Purpose or not.

Also remember that whilst they bumped it up by 0.5% per stack, that's still +7.5% damage and haste at full stacks, which is not insignificant.

DP gives you a pure gain in dps w/o any loss or skill replacement and well, probly hard math is required when the things would be set in stone, but i have no idea how such pretty much crappy talent like a crusade is going to be any good while right now it competes with AW (35% dmg boost since second one, good for fast burst phase vs some ~42,5% dmg/haste at the ~10th second or later).

I think Crusade is meant as a way of going for a different playstyle, that's all. That said, it's trivially easy to make it equal in terms of pure damage to Avenging Wrath right now:

1. 5 HP
2. Justicar's Vengeance
3. Wake of Ashes + Ashes to Ashes
4. Justicar's Vengeance
5. 35% damage (and 35% haste too)

That's 3 GCDs to get up to Legion's baseline Avenging Wrath - yes it's not instant, but 3 GCDs is probably an okay penalty most of the time.

+

That said, I'll probably go Divine Purpose, because I prefer it to the clockwork rotation you get with Crusade - unless Crusade's shown to be just that much better of course.

[OrcsRLame]

Also, on a side note why do you guys even consider taking Crusade?

Last time i checked(when it gave you 3% haste/dmg per HP spent) this talent was a DPS loss compared to not taking any 100lvl talents. So they bumped it up by 0,5% so, well now it might NOT be a dps loss but at what gain?

DP gives you a pure gain in dps w/o any loss or skill replacement and well, probly hard math is required when the things would be set in stone, but i have no idea how such pretty much crappy talent like a crusade is going to be any good while right now it competes with AW (35% dmg boost since second one, good for fast burst phase vs some ~42,5% dmg/haste at the ~10th second or later).

Not to mention that with progressing, and haste at around 30% (which seems to be some kind of cap as of right now), dimishing returns hit and those bonus haste % would lose it's weight. Not to mention that during BL/heroism the gain would be even worse + focking up our rotation totally.

Just wondering.

It's unreal how powerful Crusade is. You'd have to be fucking insane to take any other talent atm. On beta I've been topping out at ~400k dps single target at 842 ilvl. Also, on use trinkets are big dick. I have this one trinket that procs frost damage on hit for 30 seconds, I've had that alone do 5 mil damage on bosses. Crusade carries the fuck out of ret right now, and I don't even want to think about how low my damage would be without it.

[Neldarie]

You generally lose alot of sustain by going Crusade. It might be worth tho with extended duration+traits and trinkets like Horn from Halls of Valor tho. Kinda want patchwerky encounters for that tho. DP adds up to quite alot of holy power into finishers in those judgement windows in a long run.