[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Ranmauri]

I saw him say something to that effect but its kinda nebulous since I don't know where hes wanting it to be exactly. Above CL+CS or even BF? I could totally see an argument for that. SS or Hailstorm? Absolutely not. My point was basically that we either need to use it with more frequency than we are or those bonuses need to be changed.

According to his response to my comment, it seems like Darleth was referring specifically to Lava Lash being higher priority than CL+CS. I hadn't even thought of Boulderfist (1 charge) myself, but making our single-target MS dump higher-priority than our AoE functionality at the very least makes sense to me.

[wordup]

Those spreadhseets are so pretty, the frivolous guy in me with appreciation for aesthetics really approves!

A man after my own heart

[Tiusunami]

I've been testing enh on the beta servers since the beggining. They felt pretty strong all the way through, but I feel that with the last set of nerfs to feral spirit, our dps on AOE heavy fights will not be competitive at all. The cd was overpowered with the artifact talents? Yes, it was my top dmg in every raid testing fight, but to nerf it by 60% is a bit too much I think, since is the only good burst aoe we have.

I haven't tested the class after the nerfs, what did you guys think of it? Will shaman enhanc still be viable in a 20 man mythic hardcore guild?
Appreciate any responses.

[Christhammer]

Wow, Doom Vortex is so garbage now. Not only did they nerf our AoE through Crash Lightning and Alpha Wolves but our golden trait.
I'm ay 860 item level and each Doom Vortex tick is 14k. Really terrible. This definitely needs a buff.

I think i read that they happen more often now though? So maybe that makes up for the damage nerf?

[Lucrece]

Doom Vortex is directly tied to Lava Lash so its value is more easily propped up by buffing lava lash itself. I'd rather artifact traits not be overly strong.

[Deleted]

Those spreadhseets are so pretty, the frivolous guy in me with appreciation for aesthetics really approves!

agreed. I am really thankful for people like wordup who put so much effort into this... thx

[BiggestNoob]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Teach me senpai, my damage is too close to the bottom.

Those numbers are really bad compared to what good specs are doing. As I said, nobody around here actually looks around. You're also talking about a very short purely ST fight, which is the only thing Enhance isn't absolutely terrible at right now. You also lost to a DK who went and picked up a slice and you were on the boss the whole time, btw, lol.

Examples:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/y3TmxVvBXLadQGPh
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hdqb6RjfMmcP9HQv
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4qHtMWLPhRT6Cmrz
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pzq3rn8PgtZ4L6Fd
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/p6AwR7VQrYTDvC1F
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dK9xRYLgMFJc2Nky
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yhqpGBJmCw6RnZD7
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/RBqPYMcxFX6KQVaC
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/BCWhkzT897VFZXK6
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/JfmaqwdHNzvXARrC
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Kt9GynRaY2zcZhbL
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Phjv2X3CxT7ym6dw

Why are these people doing more on longer pulls? Most people in these logs are terrible, they're public after all. Go watch some good players in streams, there's a reason nobody is running Shamans anymore.

I saw him say something to that effect but its kinda nebulous since I don't know where hes wanting it to be exactly. Above CL+CS or even BF? I could totally see an argument for that. SS or Hailstorm? Absolutely not. My point was basically that we either need to use it with more frequency than we are or those bonuses need to be changed.

I want the Vortex to last much longer. LL isn't used all that frequently even with a Hot Hand build, so if it's going to be a rare proc, it needs to just be more meaningful. If it also cleaves and lasts much longer (say 5x as long as it currently does) it'll present a decent amount of sustained AoE damage which Enhance is currently lacking. The specs trashing Enhance in pure ST are godly at AoE, and either they're all going to get nerfed really hard, or Enhance is just less appealing to a raid.

That's the really long way of saying 'No. I dont have any math to back up my claims'

Let me know when doing basic arithmetic and getting it wrong gets you ranks or into good guilds.

What do these have to do? Current logs are warped by speed kills anyway. Logs you've linked take all bosses into account (warped by AoE/Cleave), SimCraft results only show ST potential. Fight lengths also differ a lot by now. This is as far from comparison as your posts from informative. Furthermore, what you linked is the very cream of the crop and if you look at the upper limit of Enh's DPS in SimCraft it goes up by A LOT placing it in the top tier. So all you've proven is that you're wrong in this case.

Yeah it's almost like you're proving my point by trying to justify SimC or spreadsheets that don't accurately measure DPS. Being good at DPS entails not just executing a flawless priority system but also involves timing in fights. Only a few specs on that list are exaggerated because of kill times because it's only 99% and because most bosses don't die fast enough for it to make an enormous difference either way (nor do most guilds have the capability of killing them that quickly).

Above, wordup posts a log of his on a short pure ST fight where he's able to sit on the boss the whole fight and the result isn't even impressive. It's basically hitting a dummy. Realistically if you look around at bosses with mechanics that don't allow this or involve add cleave, Shamans are middle to bottom. And if you put him side by side with good players on the specs that aren't bad right now, he's mid to bottom as well, even in the ideal case. So you can claim real statistics from real logs is somehow cherry picking or biased (it's not), but don't pretend like the evidence you want to present isn't. Nor is a simplistic math model considering 1 or a few targets. It assumes far more than those statistics do.

Furthermore, genius, your elitist attitude implies that only a small % of players can play Enhancement, this said, logs are warped by players outside this small % and 10k sample of elite players is by no means representative.

It is representative. You don't ask "how fast can humans run" and go take an average sample including 600lb people. If you want to know how good a spec can perform in a set of content, you look at the best performers to get a feel for it. I'm also not elitist, most people are bad at this game and can't pull numbers that are even remotely close to the maximum attainable in their gear. There's a reason good players consistently rank high 90 percentiles. It's not because they're innately superior, it's because their mentality when it comes to playing (always do better, always improve, what is optimal) and because they care about their performance more than most people. Most people can improve dramatically but they don't care, so they won't put in the effort. DPSing in WoW isn't hard or anything.

I asked for YOUR logs to prove that you are such a godlike player, be them live or beta. My ranks don't matter, I'm pretty average Shaman getting epic ranks mostly with some legendaries.

My logs don't really matter, I was simply pointing out what's going on in the beta, and even public logs make my claims abundantly clear.

But since you're so curious:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...501677/latest/
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...515920/latest/

If you had time to look at 10k beta logs, I'm pretty sure you also had time to extrapolate the useful and meaningful data and present it, right? Or will you still use anecdotal evidence to back up your claims, that you and only you can play Enh correctly?

You're welcome to go look at the logs. It's not anecdotal. I can sit here and sample public logs and validate what I'm saying. I've no need to put together a presentation or paper for anyone here, I look over logs to better understand fights, specs, and what people are doing for my own curiosity and understanding.

[Lucrece]

Several of those logs are topped by shadow priests and assassination rogues, both of which are excellent/broken at single target and complete, total useless shit at any AoE.

And then there are the unholy DK's and hunters, which everyone and their mother knows are overtuned.

I don't get why you're so offended by wordup's parse. He's well above the average of the numbers you gave in your logs, and most importantly they got a kill in it.

You'll also want an enhancement shaman if only for windwalk totem, which is the new Stampeding Roar ever since they gutted Druid's Stampeding Roar to only be melee range for some fucked up reason (as if feral druids weren't terrible enough, and balance druids got a useless Innervate).

[Deleted]

You also keep on quoting from the same sample of 3 groups of average people, even linking 2 minute long LFR kills and wipes. :|

Not even in basic statistics is that remotely useful for the sweeping analysis you are doing. "Link to 3 LFR logs with underperforming Shamans no one has ever heard of, conclude that the class sucks".

You could also be less selective and link this one for example:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pGYyTxgzLdZtM1XB

Can we not have this useless discussion where you're trying to push a gloomy agenda through intentionally misrepresenting 'data' where data quality is obviously an issue?

[BiggestNoob]

You also keep on quoting from the same sample of 3 groups of average people, even linking 2 minute long LFR kills and wipes. :|

Not even in basic statistics is that remotely useful for the sweeping analysis you are doing. "Link to 3 LFR logs with underperforming Shamans no one has ever heard of, conclude that the class sucks".

I'm comparing the top performers, not the lower ones, nor am I talking about wipes. And 200k isn't good on this fight, especially not at around 2 minutes. These are random people logging in their LFRs. I shouldn't be able to find people doing more in 80% of these random logs if Shaman is great and the logs are of a great player.

Several of those logs are topped by shadow priests and assassination rogues, both of which are excellent/broken at single target and complete, total useless shit at any AoE.

And then there are the unholy DK's and hunters, which everyone and their mother knows are overtuned.

Except these specs aren't getting nerfed and Shaman is. Fire is doing more ST than Shaman and is one of the highest AoE. Most people still can't play DH competently but it does more ST and considerably more AoE, and is capable of burst AoE which Shaman isn't. It's not just a few specs. It's many.

I don't get why you're so offended by wordup's parse. He's well above the average of the numbers you gave in your logs, and most importantly they got a kill in it.

I'm not offended. It's just misleading to claim Shaman is in a good spot. We don't have a niche, we're not super strong at anything. We're mediocre at ST and bad at AoE. Posting a short pure ST fight where I can pull out half of the specs in the game doing more in random LFR logs isn't exactly strong evidence that Shamans are in a good spot right now.

You'll also want an enhancement shaman if only for windwalk totem, which is the new Stampeding Roar ever since they gutted Druid's Stampeding Roar to only be melee range for some fucked up reason (as if feral druids weren't terrible enough, and balance druids got a useless Innervate).

Eh, we'll see. That particular thing wasn't a reason to bring a Druid in HFC (nowhere close to as potent as something like Fox). Druids were brought in BH because they could very easily deal with balconies for example. That was a niche they excelled at (wide multi-target damage) and nobody else was quite as efficient. I don't see anything aside from WW totem but I also don't see a major benefit from it on most encounters so far. It's like it was on Archimonde -- nice.. not really mandatory. Nothing like AoE grips on Xhul or Mannoroth (also not mandatory, but they simplified everything greatly). Or immunes.

Shaman is also quite squishy for a melee and that's a big liability in mythic progression. SR or wolf healing really needs to see a comeback.

[Darkoxa]

Mmm so I see that most use Frostband, in your case Wordrup i see that is the second most damage in your build, i dont understand, I think for introduce Frostbite in the build should to use Hailstorm, and in doing so, we would be sacrificing this 10% of Haste,

Of other mode think that you have a good cap of Haste you can allow it

[BentPencils]

I don't get why you're so offended by wordup's parse..

Come on now. yes, you do.

We all take Wordup seriously because he puts the work in and shows it to us and has proven he knows what he's talking about.

Some random shows up and expects the same treatment. He quotes one or two issues we've known about for weeks and the rest are assumptions he pulls out of seemingly nowhere and we're all supposed to take his word for it. He tricks himself into believing we are naive or blind for not seeing things his way. A bruised ego is the most common thing in the world.

I'm an unknown random too but I don't expect people to take any observations I made about the class seriously unless I showed calculations and reasons for my assertions.

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Examples:

Still waiting on some actual math. Don't worry. We can wait while you go make some up at this point. We do have things to compare it to already though. FYI

[Darleth]

I saw him say something to that effect but its kinda nebulous since I don't know where hes wanting it to be exactly. Above CL+CS or even BF? I could totally see an argument for that. SS or Hailstorm? Absolutely not. My point was basically that we either need to use it with more frequency than we are or those bonuses need to be changed.

Okay, clarification: Yes, higher than CL at least. I think it should be a better Maelstrom Dump than our intended AoE Ability; at least for singletarget. Thats basically it. As I've pointed out, I suck at english and wording things correctly. I do understand that it doesn't need to be on the 5th place in our priority, thats not what I want. I personally want it to be better than our AoE "dump" in that case.

Sorry for the confusion guys.. I'm dumb sometimes.

[BiggestNoob]

I don't use Hot Hand, and really, the talent is the worst on the tier by far so extra stuff on it doesn't change much in terms of optimization. The reason that I use Crash Lightning with Crashing Storm is, as you can see in the logs, the average DPC is a 5%~ lower than a Lava Lash, whilst it costs 33% less Maelstrom. Having more Maelstrom to use in a Boulderfist build means more casts in between, and you aren't strictly GCD locked so "most damage per cast" is not how you judge them at all.

Is there a tooltip error or something in game? I'm consistently seeing CL+CS doing far more than it should relative to tooltips on the dummy. Their tooltips are basically equivalent and since both trigger Hailstorm it shouldn't matter (same damage per MP), but CL+CS is doing more and I'm not seeing an effect that should cause this.

The only thing I can guess is that CS is doing damage over 6 seconds and is modified by haste so it'll scale with haste while LL doesn't. Nope, 7 ticks regardless of 60% more haste. Really not sure what's going on here. Now that I normalize everything to non-crits, I'm seeing both LL and CL+CS doing the same damage per MP, maybe I misread something earlier. If they're similar per MP which one you use would just depend on how much MP you have to spend I guess.

[Hivey]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Teach me senpai, my damage is too close to the bottom.

This was interesting to review. So, if I play with the same spec but opt for Ancestral Guidance instead, I will be losing all that Hailstrom damage but use the MS used on Hailstorm plus the extra naturally generated and transfer it directly into extra LL spam? Would that literally be the only difference?

[Darkoxa]

One day for the pre-patch and hype increase, i hope that all dominate the enhacement easily and that inside exp the shaman will be balanced with the rest class.

Althought think that shaman is different at the rest of class . Too think that shaman have more options of builds. The only thing i know is that LB no longer used or i wrong...

[wordup]

Snip

90% of this post is you trying to obfuscate the fact that you trash talked literally every player in here saying they couldn't play. Your rebuttal was then to pick on a few small little tidbits such as me not grabbing a slice (for reference the DK grabbed one under the boss, and was using their optimal Legendary too, if you want to be really nitpicky). Every log you linked has classes that are within a reasonable range, and are also of similar kill times, so all things considered I don't see where the idea that Enhancement became so bad comes from.

Last, but certainly not least, the log also includes Chronomatic Anomaly, in which it is not a purely tank and spank single target fight, and yet I still outperform an overwhelming majority of those in the sample logs you linked on the same fight.

You seem to be insistent on trying to hold some aloof status but have clearly not analysed the logs. There is a significant amount of optimisation you could do on my beta character to bring it up 10%+ of where it is, but you seem more intent on looking for the negatives at all turns.

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Is there a tooltip error or something in game? I'm consistently seeing CL+CS doing far more than it should relative to tooltips on the dummy.

CL+CS have no traits linked to it which is why the parse shows LL as slightly ahead, as that has 3 points in Forged in Lava. In a vacuum they are both extremely similar damage wise. There could very well be a latent tooltip error as CL did receive changes in the last hotfix build which may have slipped through, but I believe it was altered with it as both the direct and splash damage values are now equal.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I know have a pre-patch breakdown video that goes over most of the stuff in the document here:

[Darkoxa]

Up my previous post:

Mmm so I see that most use Frostband, in your case Wordrup i see that is the second most damage in your build, i dont understand, I think for introduce Frostbite in the build should to use Hailstorm, and in doing so, we would be sacrificing this 10% of Haste,

Of other mode think that you have a good cap of Haste you can allow it

I believe that is interesting

[miffy23]

Seems Enhancement has its own toxic forum tryhard too now, after Elemental.

Enh will be strong in Legion, regardless. Can't wait.

[Hivey]

Seems Enhancement has its own toxic forum tryhard too now, after Elemental.

Enh will be strong in Legion, regardless. Can't wait.

We need one for Resto now