The Magical Orders of Azeroth and their relative strengths

[Mace]

You people are giving me such a headache.

Hope you'll learn a bit about the lore with Legion at least.

Well part of the purpose of this thread is for knowledge, and everyone's input is welcome. There are many details that can easily be missed that carry weight.

Like I forgot that dragons also inputed into the Kirin'tor - Krasus for example - how prolific he was is unknown. He wasn't a blue, and dragons don't know everything he is significant. On the surface, the Kirin'tor should pale in comparison to the nightborne/highborne group - it is a young body, sure it is a magical society ,b ut it's piecing together a lot of things and fragments that the night elven group have the full extent off in many areas - so you would think both elven bodies, night and blood elf should blow them away.

But it doesn't seem to work like that. Kael'thas studies with the Kirin'tor and is a member of the 6 at one point - to me this makes me wonder how relatively powerful the kirin'tor is to the high elf/blood elf group - I don't know, but that high elves were active members and teachers there means a lot of their knowledge is probably shared there. Does that put the Kirin'tor above the high/blood elves?:

Add to that blood elf knowledge gained via Illidan and the legion and the naaru tech before they got redeemed, and they have advantages not even the nightborne/highborne have.

Power vs knowledge? Power seems to matter a lot even if you don't have much knowledge - hence Orc warlocks in the first/2nd war being a match for mages or shaman going toe to toe with far more ancient/knowledgeable studied groups like druids or mages etc. We beat Archimonde in WoD - granted we've grown alot too, to mythical heights since WC3 - still. who knows

Some TLDR - ramblings aloud.

The council of Tirisfal and the Guardian block are now folded into the Kirin'tor - Medivh is gone, the Violet Eye, part of the Kirin'tor holds its key and Khadgar is now the master of the place he has locked up and now leads the Kirin'tor - i feel a huge story opportunity was missed here, because in the Last Guardian, the rivalry between the two groups was quite apparent, and now they're one happy family. This adds all the mysteries of the Order of Tirisfal and the Guardian to the Kirin'tor.

Thought the Shen'drelar may have fallen, the rest of the highborne in the nightborne and the Moonguard still remain and are very much strong and up there. They've had their own advancement in 10k years, the nightborne and the rest of the highborne based magical groups on Broken Isles should carry a phenomenal amount of magical knowledge that hasn't fallen to ruin, and whiles most of the shen'drelar might be out of their mind consumed with more magic and the effects Immol'thar has had on them, the uncorrupted ones are not. How do they weigh in? Shen'drelar advancement would have halted a few thousand years ago when the place started falling into ruin due to immol'thar - we see them inadequate against the blood elves - but that may have been only from a combat point of view - not all magical knowledge as there would be many areas and mysteries of magic completely lost and not yet recovered by neither high elves/nor kirin'tor - and the blues who might know, have not really played a part in their affairs with the exception of Kalecgos. WE however find no such lapse with the highborne led groups of the Broken Isles i.e. the nightborne/moonguard and possibly the cursed Court of Farondis - they pressed on with magical knowledge abuse/corruption free.

However as we can see quite visibly their magical acumen is most impressive, they have not been tested like the Kirin'tor/Blood elves have been. This may not mean much at all though, or not as significant as it was with the shen'drelar but there is that. IT could mean they are more advanced having not had to deal with wars to slow them down, but not quite as advanced in the magical warfare department as they may have been. Afterall, given that we beat Illidan/Lich King/Archimonde/Deathwing beings of immense power and knowledge, being old and incredibly knowledge does not mean we can't be effective against you. And we do raid the nighthold afterall and win, despite their superior magical knowledge - we aided by the nightborne and moonguard to be fair - but we do the encounter.

there is another thing also, The blood elves did gain a lot of magical knowledge during the reckless era. When they learnt to utilise very advanced Naaru technology, at a level that even surprised the draenei - though they had Illidan and Legion help - still it was something and as a group would have gained a lot - remember Kael'thas' greatest and brightest were the ones that abandoned him and turned to A'dal forming the Scryers and turning the blood elves around , all those who were going to Outland to join Kael'thas instead turn to find him and his betrayal is relayed to Silvermoon that eventually stands against him.

If Illidan though could be so powerful, imagine what other 10k year old highborne/nightborne like Thalyssra, Elisande, Moonguard people would be since they continued advancing while he sat in a cell, and he operates at a level beyond any Kirin'tor mage .. but part of the problem here is

we do not know how magical knowledge and power are related. The only magical acumen that bears weight for warcraft is your ability to fight, and it seems that people with much lesser knowledge can beat people with much greater ones - or it's not so much knowledge based as it is power and skill based. Knowledge matters when it comes to other things like building an advanced society, having the magic equivalent of irl technology at a level higher than anyone else, this is where the vast weight of knowledge is brought to bear, but when it comes to fighting, it's advantage is much smaller even though it has an advantage, sort of like the new pvp normalization where your level/ability/gear don't give you as much an advantage in it as it does outside. This is the only thing that can explain how despite how much younger we are we are able to do things against beings who should be able to obliterate.

Furthermore, we don't know how knowledge is transfered, the night elves used ways of transferring vast amounts of knowledge to speedily train people, the arcane boosts your intellect significantly too, so you are able to be a lot smarter which I can only assume means much more memory retention, speed of thought and calculation, able to process information and quickly solve things. We find out while using arcane constructs holds a significant advantage, the high elves stopped using them over a thousand years ago because they also posed a security issue that could be exploited. Also demonstrating military ability vs knowledge aren't always linearly related. Whiles it does appear most magical tomes need to be read, like books, it also appears most have more to them too or faster ways of acquiring knowledge, this could actually allow much younger groups to benefit or gain a lot of knowledge faster as long as the ancient groups who had the knowledge share.

i.e. everyone can get up to date and the differences may just lie in the size and diversity of the magical communities. races like the Blood elves and the High/nightborne have entire communities based around magic, but that is waht the kirin'tor is too, it's not part of a nation that does other things, it's a magically based nation.

Finally strength of power seems to account for the lionshare of capability, how much of punch your fireball packs is significant, you may tons of knowledge more but if his fireball packs much more of punch than yours - he'll kill you. Your knowledge might help find ways of breaking down the spell or protecting yourself he doesn't know but power is the pedigree. Orc warlocks hardly knew the complexities of magic compared to their elven and human magi counterparts, but they were able to sufficiently challenge them despite their superior knowledge because of the raw power of the magic they wielded. This is also significant.

[Beloren]

Blood elves are smarter than your average kirin'tor = and just because Blood elves or dragons study with or even work with the Kirin'tor doesn't mean the kirin'tor has access to all their knowledge.



There are also high elf kirin'tor ghosts there... so the blood elves are smarter.
Kirin'tor is like a library for mages, a university centre where most of the powerful mages go through, doesn't mean they share all their people or race's knowledge, but they do contribute knowledge and learn from what is there. Humans are the youngest magical race, so they'd be the ones most eager to collect all the discarded or forgotten elven knowledge they can find. THe blood elves won't share everything they have I don't think - but it's an individual thing.

Most of the ancient knowledge will come from the night elves - and with the hiighborne and nightbone back and interested in all their stuff, for sure they will also be more knowledgeable than most of the Kirin'tor

[Mace]

There are also high elf kirin'tor ghosts there... so the blood elves are smarter.

as they are not a different race, I hardly think this is the case. I can only conclude this is not because they are genetiacally superior, but more because in this era they were far more driven to succeed, so they did reckless things - no High elf or Kirin'tor would have gone there with magic - too dangerous, too reckless. Azshara went there, but the nightborne/moonguard NElven magic groups would never have done there would never have gone there. Prince Totheldrin after being corrupted by Immol'thar woudl have gone there, he did do a reckless thing by trapping the demon in the first place, but the likes of Evenshade and Estualan, uncorrupted highborne from Eldre'thalas wouldn't have.

but Elves are generally much more intelligent. as Highborne/nightborne would be than normal night elves - this is because the arcane further enhances your intelligence, and it's a core part of the Highborne group - whether blood elves, high elves, highborne or nightborne . When the night elves stopped using the arcane for spells, they only had the passive high intelligecne by virute of bieng suffused by the well of eternity, they didn't further amplify this through using magic for spells, but the highborne/nightborne/moonguard all do. As do mages of the Kirin'tor or any mage, and the high elves. A tleas thta'ts how i view it.

[Zuben]

Silvermoon magisters (along with other blood elven forces) were reinforced with the return of Sunfury after TBC and Sunreaver remnants after the Purge. If some followed Aethas (the servant bitch) back to Dalaran, I'm not aware of it. All in all, it seems Silvermoon is a powerful enough organization to operate around the world. They can even form a mini-Sunwell to empower their offensive. Then they also have the blood golems. And the rest of blood elven forces backing them up.

It's a pity Blizzard chose not to use them as Horde equivalent to Kirin Tor and instead swept the political ramifications of the Purge under a rug. At least we're rid of Jaina and the Silver Covenant. Khadgar is a cool cucumber to rally behind.

Stormwind has a magical force of its own, though I don't know how independent it is. The Kirin Tor did make a portal to Stormwind in Everbloom, so I'd guess they're deeply in cahoots.

Council of Tirisfal hasn't been active since the awful comic and I feel that's for the best. Its Captain Planet nature along with he-who-should-not-be-named made it way too corny and contrived. The Guardian system itself seems to have been scrapped, and now that Legion is coming, Kirin Tor, with Khadgar at the helm, have taken it upon themselves to be the guardians the forces of Azeroth rally behind.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I wonder why blizz is so afraid of showing blood elf mages walk over human mages, we kinda see it in war crimes with thalen literally resisting jainas most powerful arcane blast, and hes under Rommath in rank/power

[Beloren]

I wonder why blizz is so afraid of showing blood elf mages walk over human mages, we kinda see it in war crimes with thalen literally resisting jainas most powerful arcane blast, and hes under Rommath in rank/power

that's how it should be, although humans can be very talented, and match up, with enough time and training, magic is in the blood of all elves, and the highborne group never stopped, even the remaining night elves that are now picking it up again are referred to as being a terrifying prospect in cata If they were to adopt their arcane legacy - the blood elves don't show such fear over humans doing it.

I think what blizzard is doing in Legion by introducing the nightborne they are raising up the night elf wing throught the nightborne/highborne group to be the main balance for the blood elves... it makes more snese, because it just seems a bit ridiculous that human mages can do all that, and without the night elves gaining some serious mojo, they would have to do that via the humans, and I think they want Dalaran to be more like a neutral place where mages of all races go to learn and contribute Whereas the elves provide the magical might of both factions.

[Zaelsino]

I wonder why blizz is so afraid of showing blood elf mages walk over human mages, we kinda see it in war crimes with thalen literally resisting jainas most powerful arcane blast, and hes under Rommath in rank/power

Non-Kirin Tor mages (non-human mages in general, actually) are either evil, incompetent, or irrelevant. Being part of group 3 is unfortunate, but better than 1 and 2.

I wonder how long it'll take Blizzard to realise that the nightborne are a bit too "magic-y" and fold what's left of them into their beloved Kirin Tor.

[Mace]

Humans can be quite smart too, at least the Kirin'Tor
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Blood Elves dumb too
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And yes they can be very powerful - but when you're an enemy, in wow you are going to be very powerful, still sometimes one individual just rises to a whole new level while most of his people remain down there, otehr times it's most of the race, in the case of the Elves, especially the highborne elves (both night elves and thalassian elves) most of the group tend to also rise.

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I think what blizzard is doing in Legion by introducing the nightborne they are raising up the night elf wing throught the nightborne/highborne group to be the main balance for the blood elves... it makes more snese, because it just seems a bit ridiculous that human mages can do all that, and without the night elves gaining some serious mojo, they would have to do that via the humans, and I think they want Dalaran to be more like a neutral place where mages of all races go to learn and contribute Whereas the elves provide the magical might of both factions.

now this I agree with.

[Garfurion]

I wonder why blizz is so afraid of showing blood elf mages walk over human mages, we kinda see it in war crimes with thalen literally resisting jainas most powerful arcane blast, and hes under Rommath in rank/power

I guess Blizzard's official stand would be that the average Blood Elf mage is just as strong as the average Human, Gnome or Forsaken mage to prevent people from expecting to see any differences in power in-game.

We really don't know much about the relative strength of different mages other than Jaina being the most powerful human sorceress alive according to the WoW manual and one of the most powerful magic-wielders on the face of Azeroth according to Hearthstone, and Khadgar is one of the most powerful magi in Azerothian history according to Tides of War.

Resisting 1 arcane blast doesn't necessarily mean necessarily Thalen is stronger than Jaina. It could be resisting that 1 blast cost him more than it cost Jaina to cast it.

It would be nice to see mages of other races play a more significant role though.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The first thing isn't really proof of anything other than that the Kirintor are arrogant, which we already knew. As far as dumb elves go, nothing eclipses the night elf mages in Azshara

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I guess Blizzard's official stand would be that the average Blood Elf mage is just as strong as the average Human, Gnome or Forsaken mage to prevent people from expecting to see any differences in power in-game.

We really don't know much about the relative strength of different mages other than Jaina being the most powerful human sorceress alive according to the WoW manual and one of the most powerful magic-wielders on the face of Azeroth according to Hearthstone, and Khadgar is one of the most powerful magi in Azerothian history according to Tides of War.

Resisting 1 arcane blast doesn't necessarily mean necessarily Thalen is stronger than Jaina. It could be resisting that 1 blast cost him more than it cost Jaina to cast it.

It would be nice to see mages of other races play a more significant role though.

The quote literally has her use her full might and him to turn to her angrily unaffected, no signs of fatigue etc.

[Mace]

Non-Kirin Tor mages (non-human mages in general, actually) are either evil, incompetent, or irrelevant. Being part of group 3 is unfortunate, but better than 1 and 2.

I wonder how long it'll take Blizzard to realise that the nightborne are a bit too "magic-y" and fold what's left of them into their beloved Kirin Tor.

lol, the sracasm, I suspect that with the nightborne now, they won['t have to fold everyone into the Kirin'tor. I suspect what OP just said to be what follows and I also prefer it that way if anyone should combat the blood elves it should be the night elves, and if anyone the night elves, it should be the blood elves mainly.

I would most prefer that they got along instead but it does have that feel of night group v day group, hopefully blizzard would write a little bit more getting along!? Whenever blizzard want to show night elves responding to blood elves or doing magical matters, even as the alliance's main response as a faction, they will show the nightborne/highborne group, just like they've used the blood elves who took over from the forsaken when they were interoduced. Humans, gnomes who are really good at magic will be a Kirin'tor thing, as will forsaken, goblins - and ofc you will have nightborne and blood elves having a presence but not dominating the scene.

I don't know where they'll take leadership of the Kirin'tor - Kalecgos? Khadgar will probably continue on in that role as leader, but I think Aethas will become the 6th, and we'll probably have a forsaken , gnome rise up. I don't htink we'll see any of the night elf highborne group (nightborne or shen'drelar) interested much in the kirin'tor, but they will have the odd member too, keeping abreast with things from "the other side"

It's really a human/high elf thing - and by association, Forsaken and Blood elf, that blizzard have evolved to being an Azeroth thing, like the Cenarion circle and the Argent Dawn. We'll probably see some goblins there too, like we start seeing in 7.0. the Night elf branch seems to be a separae thing, and it tdoesn't make sense to have the blood elves too reliant on the Kirin'tor, nor any of the night elven highborne groups either. Because of their magical pedigree it's their thing. And remember the Dalaran humans are not stormwind humans anyway, but mostly Lordaron bunch and others from the north who formed this city state with thier high elven tutors.

the way I see it, is the two elven groups continue at their level of magic for their respective factions, but when the world needs magical solutions, Dalaran will play the main role, but you will see involvement from both elven groups when necessary. I think though the elven groups will probably fight each other in factional conflicts, but theyw ill work together for the major threats of the Elves which are The Legion and Azshara, but it would be indepenedent. Notice how the struggle of Suramar and the Nightwell is totally independent of the Kirin'tor, so was the Sunwell and Quel'thalas struggle - it was an Elven thing. but it has a key role to play in what's going on, including what the Kirin'tor is doing with the rest of the world.

The Kirin'tor has taken the place of the Night elves as the principle group to handle the Legion, but through Suramar and the nightborne the night elves still play a significant role in dealing with legion, and through the druids they play a key role in saving the world soul - remember that they are typically at the heart of this struggle, so when it comes to the Legion, this is where night elves are centre stage. o rr normaly are, it' sbeen resdistributed a bit. Things change.

[steelballfc]

I wonder why blizz is so afraid of showing blood elf mages walk over human mages, we kinda see it in war crimes with thalen literally resisting jainas most powerful arcane blast, and hes under Rommath in rank/power

Humans will always be Superior to any race
that's how Wow work

[Garfurion]

The quote literally has her use her full might and him to turn to her angrily unaffected, no signs of fatigue etc.

You mean this quote: "Jaina whirled and, with all her might, sent a massive blast of arcane energy directly at Thalen Songweaver. In his arrogance, he was not expecting it. He stumbled back but recovered quickly."

Thalen isn't really unaffected and he doesn't really do anything until he drops like a stone moments later after being hit on the head by Pained.

I agree that Jaina doesn't appear to be all that impressive as "one of the most powerful magic-wielders on the face of Azeroth" but neither is Thalen as he's not doing anything and easily overpowered by a simple knock on the head.

[Zuben]

I agree that Jaina doesn't appear to be all that impressive as "one of the most powerful magic-wielders on the face of Azeroth" but neither is Thalen as he's not doing anything and easily overpowered by a simple knock on the head.

Yeah, well, the thing to note here is Jaina especially. We don't really consider Thalen that impressive, but Jaina has always been hailed a mage-genius. That her powerful blast failed to do much damage to someone unremarkable who didn't even fully see it coming kinda paints her as less than what we're supposed believe of her. Then again, Fandral somehow overpowered a whole group of powerful people in Cataclysm's Thrall-questline, so relative power seems to go whimsically up and down at leisure.

[Tripzzz]

Yeah, well, the thing to note here is Jaina especially. We don't really consider Thalen that impressive, but Jaina has always been hailed a mage-genius. That her powerful blast failed to do much damage to someone unremarkable who didn't even fully see it coming kinda paints her as less than what we're supposed believe of her. Then again, Fandral somehow overpowered a whole group of powerful people in Cataclysm's Thrall-questline, so relative power seems to go whimsically up and down at leisure.

Wow's story is very inconsistent. For example, Sylvanas is supposed to be "nigh indestructible" yet she was killed by a single bullet.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Wow's story is very inconsistent. For example, Sylvanas is supposed to be "nigh indestructible" yet she was killed by a single bullet.

Cursed ammunition

[Tripzzz]

Cursed ammunition

Is that confirmed or is it headcanon?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Is that confirmed or is it headcanon?

May I direct you to the 30 seconds it takes to reach and fight him in sfk

[Tripzzz]

May I direct you to the 30 seconds it takes to reach and fight him in sfk

He uses normal bullets aswell as cursed bullets. So where is it confirmed he used a cursed bullet and not a regular bullet to kill Sylvanas? If it's not confirmed, then it is merely headcanon.

[Friendlyimmolation]

He uses normal bullets aswell as cursed bullets. So where is it confirmed he used a cursed bullet and not a regular bullet to kill Sylvanas? If it's not confirmed, then it is merely headcanon.

Lol, coming from someone who makes sure to not post a single constructive or non head canon post and you would try to say the same thing I say whenever you come up with new fanon? To answer your question if you actually cared and weren't nursing a grudge. The fall did not kill her, her flesh is described as nearly undestructable. Ill let you draw the easy conclusion and correlation that godrey uses both cursed and normal bullets, that the cursed bullets would be the ones used to Kill Sylvanas. IF you honestly are unable to make that conculsion, then gg.