Resto Druid - Legion Talents

[Mursy]

How is it to level as Resto? What do you guys think the best Affinity is I'm kinda hoping Guardian is good :P Also not just for leveling but world quests I'd love not having to switch specs everytime I want to solo something.

[Potatolight]

How is it to level as Resto? What do you guys think the best Affinity is I'm kinda hoping Guardian is good :P Also not just for leveling but world quests I'd really like to not have use to my offspec everytime I wanna solo something.

I did 2 levels as a resto and tried out all the Affinities and to be honest it all didn't feel great. If I had to choose feral Affinity was the most "enjoyable". The last 8 levels I did as guardian(not the Affinity, the spec) and it felt so much better in comparison I cant even describe it. You deal so much more dmg and have also 0 downtime, so I dont see a reason why anyone would pick resto as leveling spec and just save the AP for 110.

[theburned]

Mana reductions seem nice for obvious reasons, with no more spirit and even if there was.. new xpacs always mean you feel mana starved at the start of a new tier... I actually am more interested in the ability to move while channeling the spell. Oh, how I miss Symbiosis on a shaman in MoP days...

You aren't particularly mana starved in legion though, you got quite a bit higher baseline mana regen, and the same as everyone else, so there is very little reason to believe you are particularly more mana starved at the start of an expansion, also if you feel like you dont have enough mana you should probably look into getting the darkmoon trinket, should be more effective than the mana regeneration, and you will still have 6% mana reduction on WG if you decide to go for tranquil mind first, 19 traits is to be expected prior to mythic raiding at least.

Also the issue with PotA is that you dont really gain any power until you get to tranquil mind, with tranquil mind you will gain steady 1% increases pr trait.

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I did 2 levels as a resto and tried out all the Affinities and to be honest it all didn't feel great. If I had to choose feral Affinity was the most "enjoyable". The last 8 levels I did as guardian(not the Affinity, the spec) and it felt so much better in comparison I cant even describe it. You deal so much more dmg and have also 0 downtime, so I dont see a reason why anyone would pick resto as leveling spec and just save the AP for 110.

Feral affinity got nerfed to shit, they said they will take further looks at it, because it got nerfed more than intended.

[fallenangel-succ]

Pretty sure you will level as spec X, where X is the offspec you want for 110. They nerfed the cost of acquiring the first 13 traits to basically 0 just so you can pick another spec to level with instead of being stuck with the 4th iteration of "this time, leveling as a healer will be fast and fun!" without feeling bad for wasting AP.

[Mursy]

I have heard that there might be a toy that turns you in to a Treant like Glyph of the Treant that you can buy in the Order hall. Does anyone know if this is true?

Thanks

[Kaeth]

You can buy an equivalent to Glyph of the Treant in the Order Hall. It's not a Toy; it puts the form on your shapeshift bar just like the live glyph.

[Mursy]

Oh alright thanks is it the same old model?

[Kaeth]

Yup, the good old walking broccoli model lives on!

[Sprucelee]

Please back this up by numbers. Your own numbers show this is not the case.
I'll repeat what I said, fwiw.
It's a good call to use SotF procs on WG. I agree you'll get more benefit out of them (RG is a different beast, but this might rely on OoC procs to make it viable). But the fact is that WG is your most efficient heal (not counting tranq/eff here), with or without SotF.
This all started when you said that WG is the same HPM as RJ, and that you should only cast WG every 25s. There is a huge difference between saying "use SotF for WG when possible" and "only use WG with SotF". The former I agree with, the latter is blatantly misleading.

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I agree with both of these statements, mostly because healers are not DPS, and hitting spells whenever they come off CD might not be the best thing to do in a specific scenario, even if it gives you the highest theoretical numbers. My issue was with saying to only cast WG whenever you are under SotF.

This is the trap of SoTF, and why it has always looked nice on paper, but previously only had limited success in actual use, because of the way it "forces" you to play correctly (if you choose it). It just feels bad, that is the simplest way to put it.

There is nothing new about SoTF, and while it has always looked nice on paper (particularly in TC prior/during launch tiers)... Druids have always gone back to less restrictive choices (which has been ToL in the last two expansions), even when the TC showed they might be weaker. In WoD, SotF did not even make it through the first tier as the recommended choice, by the end it was split with ToL on Imperator as the talent of choice, and then ultimately ditched. What ended up winning? The supposedly weaker ToL/HoTW; why? Because cool-downs are nice and healer TC based on maximum output rarely translates to actual progression.

When it is all said and done, I can count the number of fights SotF has truly fit on one hand, otherwise it had all the problems your conversation is framing, forcing yourself to sit on heals, and fall into an almost robotic like CD centered healing pattern. And more often then not, unless the whole raid was constantly at a deficit, that rarely worked well when working with a healing team. And that happens to be when cultivation will be strong, so we will just have to see. I will never toss out good ol' ToL either, always dismissed, but look where we are now...

But we will have too see, I take all of the pre-expansion TC with a grain of salt, it rarely has translated to Mythic raiding.

The only difference this time is that T19 2pc going to force us to be completely focused on WG, and the 4pc directly plays into SoTF, so the interaction will be strong. Also, the artifact changes things up from previous expansions. I do not know how we get passed that until it is replaced. But SoTF is still a trap and I personally dislike the play-style. Sigh.

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Mana reductions seem nice for obvious reasons, with no more spirit and even if there was.. new xpacs always mean you feel mana starved at the start of a new tier... I actually am more interested in the ability to move while channeling the spell. Oh, how I miss Symbiosis on a shaman in MoP days...

This is another choice I have been contemplating. Going for traits (and PotA) that impact mana/HPC before Tranquil mind. History tells me that may be the right choice, almost everything I have done early in previous expansions has been geared towards squeezing out the most casts possible, that has always seemed be the best choice in early progression.

But ultimately I think this matters little, and is just a blip on the radar in terms of choices as it will be passed quickly as we fill out our artifacts.

[theburned]

This is the trap of SoTF, and why it has always looked nice on paper, but previously only had limited success in actual use, because of the way it "forces" you to play correctly (if you choose it). It just feels bad, that is the simplest way to put it.

There is nothing new about SoTF, and while it has always looked nice on paper (particularly in TC prior/during launch tiers)... Druids have always gone back to less restrictive choices (which has been ToL in the last two expansions), even when the TC showed they might be weaker. In WoD, SotF did not even make it through the first tier as the recommended choice, by the end it was split with ToL on Imperator as the talent of choice, and then ultimately ditched. What ended up winning? The supposedly weaker ToL/HoTW; why? Because cool-downs are nice and healer TC based on maximum output rarely translates to actual progression.

When it is all said and done, I can count the number of fights SotF has truly fit on one hand, otherwise it had all the problems your conversation is framing, forcing yourself to sit on heals, and fall into an almost robotic like CD centered healing pattern. And more often then not, unless the whole raid was constantly at a deficit, that rarely worked well when working with a healing team. And that happens to be when cultivation will be strong, so we will just have to see. I will never toss out good ol' ToL either, always dismissed, but look where we are now...

But we will have too see, I take all of the pre-expansion TC with a grain of salt, it rarely has translated to Mythic raiding.

The only difference this time is that T19 2pc going to force us to be completely focused on WG, and the 4pc directly plays into SoTF, so the interaction will be strong. Also, the artifact changes things up from previous expansions. I do not know how we get passed that until it is replaced. But SoTF is still a trap and I personally dislike the play-style. Sigh.

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This is another choice I have been contemplating. Going for traits (and PotA) that impact mana/HPC before Tranquil mind. History tells me that may be the right choice, almost everything I have done early in previous expansions has been geared towards squeezing out the most casts possible, that has always seemed be the best choice in early progression.

But ultimately I think this matters little, and is just a blip on the radar in terms of choices as it will be passed quickly as we fill out our artifacts.

Have you even done any testing or followed it at all, SotF is majorly changed, lets start with the indirect changes to the spell, Prosperity, puts the swiftmend cd at 25 seconds and grants another charge, this means it can easily adapt to more situations, even situations where you might consider ToL to be the best choice, Flourish, 6 seconds increased SotF WG time. Both of these are pretty massive in terms of sotf viability, so if it is mathematically stronger, then it is stronger nothing more to it.
WG is a smart heal, something which is not the case on live, this makes buffing it a better choice, because you are more guaranteed to actually get some healing, rather than getting wgs on people with 90% hp when people with 50% hp are present.

Legion healing patterns is not the same as wod, so making assumptions based on what happened last expansion makes no sense, especially when most of it didn't have to do with its throughput, more than its restrictiveness in having to cast it every 15 seconds, now you can adapt to 40 sec windows without too much trouble.

It's not just theorycrafting, but logs have also shown that sotf is a strong option, while not necessarily always the correct choice.

As for inner peace/tranquil mind, there are several fights where having a 2 min cd tranq is quite a lot stronger than a 3 min one, Ursoc and xavius (tranq did roughly 20-30% of my healing due to the amount of casts, and this was a fight where you do nothing, but spam heals the entire fight.) Personally never tested cenarius so cant say much, but it can definitely be a strong contender. Elerethe renferal was another one where I didn't really get any valuable testing, where it should prove to be pretty viable. Tranquil mind is pretty much required for Elerethe, and 20% on tranq should definitely serve a good purpose on Ursoc, cenarius and xavius eitherway.

History tells me that may be the right choice, almost everything I have done early in previous expansions has been geared towards squeezing out the most casts possible, that has always seemed be the best choice in early progression.

Legion healing is not the same as WoD healing, you have a fairly good chunk of mana, in early progress you are most likely better off using alchemist stone/darkmoon card than going for these mana traits.

[fallenangel-succ]

Tranquil mind costs you 7 points of rather dubious value - Armor of the ancients which is ok, and Blessing of the World Tree which is very weak.
These can be compared with Persistence (20% duration on RJ), 6% extra regen (~4% extra mana in total for a 5 minute fight) and PotA (3 free RJ/RG per minute).
a 20% boost to Tranq is nice but it doesn't outweigh the benefits of going for PotA, I think, unless you feel the need for the movement benefit as well.

[Hypasonic]

The boost of tranquil mind is largely irrelevant, we've suffered ever since they removed Aspect of the Fox with our raid cd. This artifact addresses that problem.

[Sprucelee]

Have you even done any testing or followed it at all, SotF is majorly changed, lets start with the indirect changes to the spell, Prosperity, puts the swiftmend cd at 25 seconds and grants another charge, this means it can easily adapt to more situations, even situations where you might consider ToL to be the best choice, Flourish, 6 seconds increased SotF WG time. Both of these are pretty massive in terms of sotf viability, so if it is mathematically stronger, then it is stronger nothing more to it.
WG is a smart heal, something which is not the case on live, this makes buffing it a better choice, because you are more guaranteed to actually get some healing, rather than getting wgs on people with 90% hp when people with 50% hp are present.

Legion healing patterns is not the same as wod, so making assumptions based on what happened last expansion makes no sense, especially when most of it didn't have to do with its throughput, more than its restrictiveness in having to cast it every 15 seconds, now you can adapt to 40 sec windows without too much trouble.

It's not just theorycrafting, but logs have also shown that sotf is a strong option, while not necessarily always the correct choice.

As for inner peace/tranquil mind, there are several fights where having a 2 min cd tranq is quite a lot stronger than a 3 min one, Ursoc and xavius (tranq did roughly 20-30% of my healing due to the amount of casts, and this was a fight where you do nothing, but spam heals the entire fight.) Personally never tested cenarius so cant say much, but it can definitely be a strong contender. Elerethe renferal was another one where I didn't really get any valuable testing, where it should prove to be pretty viable. Tranquil mind is pretty much required for Elerethe, and 20% on tranq should definitely serve a good purpose on Ursoc, cenarius and xavius eitherway.

I like your enthusiasm for SotF! I still hate the play-style, and always will, it is simply not fun for me and flows very poorly. The same arguments have been made in the past, but I already said that the nature of the argument has been changed with the artifact and T19 synergy (and talents, as you pointed out). So yes, I might have to begrudgingly... "fall in line"...

Also, tell me this: What was the highest "mathematical combination of talents" in HFC? And what did you actually use?

My experience is that the maximum output choices often work well in testing, early progression pulls, or severely mana strained environments (Imperator!) where the raid is constantly strained, but generally once you get to the XXth or XXXth pull on a boss, the healing team has the patterns worked out to the point that other things become more important, such as CDs/Talents that help with areas where the most deaths occur, etc..

And yes, I have had access since the first day of Alpha

Legion healing is not the same as WoD healing, you have a fairly good chunk of mana, in early progress you are most likely better off using alchemist stone/darkmoon card than going for these mana traits.

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I think you may have missed the conversation they were having, it was centered on mana being so constrained that even casting WG outside of SotF might not be something we can support, and very low concurrent usage of Rejuv, so I am not certain what you mean by "a good chunk of mana". My testing has certainly shown that mana is a serious constraint beyond the most rigid playstyle. And yes, trinkets will be our only other choice. My experience tells me that "all of the above" is generally the best option for Druids, especially the first raid.

Having been through this alpha/beta routine, what 4 times now, I have no doubt that most of the TC will fall flat on its face come Mythic raiding. But keep it up, it makes for a good read, and is helpful. I do not have the time I used to for these forums though, or I would be more involved beyond playing... Well until launch, then it is game on.

The boost of tranquil mind is largely irrelevant, we've suffered ever since they removed Aspect of the Fox with our raid cd. This artifact addresses that problem.

Have you had issues with movement beyond a couple fights in Nightmare? I haven't.

[Tiberria]

The reasons why using ToL over SoTF has become a 99% choice in HFC have everything to do with gearing and trinkets moreso than SoTF being inherently weak.
- Demonic Phylactery is ridiculously overpowered and gives you more value the more Rejuvs you spam while having a significantly lower relative effect on WG. This trinket pushed us towards a Rejuv spam heavy play style.
- Our class trinket similarly synergizes with Rejuv spam and ToL over SoTF
- We just ended up having a lot more mana than we did in HFC/Highmaul, because of a combination of Phylactery being so strong and all of the extra Lifebloom casts (that were virtually free with Phylactery) that our 2pc/4pc basically forced us to cast severely throttled our mana consumption. As a result, straight Rejuv spam while still getting decent levels of WG usage became much more of a viable thing than it was in Highmaul.

That's why ToL is the default talent, not because SoTF is inherently bad. SoTF vs ToL was virtually a 50/50 selection in the first tier of WoD. The gear scaling and trinkets skewed things in HFC.

As far as where we are now, I think it's pretty clear that ToL is a dead talent and is not a reasonable option in any realistic situation. You are essentially choosing between a Prosperity/SoTF/Spring Blossoms-Inner Peace build or a Cenarion Ward/Cultivation/Germination build. The Cultivation build is more flexible, and possibly stronger if there is steady, constant raid damage and low enough health pools to get good usage out of Cultivation. If the damage is very up and down and spiky, the Cultivation build will be quite weak and you will be pushed to Prosperity-SoTF. The set bonuses are strong enough that Prosperity-SoTF probably becomes the default build regardless of damage patterns. ToL just doesn't really have a niche to fill now that Cultivation is around (Cultivation is a stronger boost to Rejuv 100% of the time that the healing matters, not just 30/180 secs), and it doesn't have synergy with any of the other talents, making it weaker.

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The issue with taking the PoTA path is I still don't think it's a good return on investment.
- Instead of getting your second major trait at 16 points, you aren't getting it until 19 points.
- PoTA is by far the weakest of the major traits. Let's say you average a WG cast every 20 seconds. That means one PoTA proc and essentially 2 free Rejuvs every 80 seconds. That's weak in terms of the numerical effect, and weaker because of the RNG. PoTA is also random targets, so there's no guarantee those Rejuvs cleave to who you want them to.
- Tranquil Mind isn't just about the mobile Tranq - but that is a huge advantage in terms of flexibility. 20% more Tranq healing is extremely strong, and probably works out to a 4-6% pure HPS boost - more if you're taking Inner Peace. Raid cooldowns aren't massively overhealing in Legion like they were in WoD, and that 20% is probably more throughput than either of the other 2 majors. It's also guaranteed, reliable throughput, while both PoTA and Dreamwalker are RNG procs.
- Most artifact calculator projections that I've seen say that it's likely we will be at 22-23 traits by week 1 of Mythic. That means that even if you go to Dreamwalker, then Tranquil Mind, it's likely that you are still 2-3 points into Persistence by the start of Mythic, so there's still a pretty strong chance we will have 3/3 in our strongest 3 point trait.
- While 3 pts in Blessing of the World Tree is weak, you're putting 3 points in Infusion of Nature right away to go the PoTA route. Infusion of Nature is only a 6% WG cost decrease, and is probably one of our weakest traits outside of the near useless ones, so I don't think there's that much of a difference in "wasted points". You're also building towards a much weaker major trait.

I still think we'd be far better served going the conventional wisdom Dreamwalker then Tranquil Mind route. The 6% mana regen will be a loss, but so is a 20% weaker Tranq. You can play around 6% less regen by more conservative casting.

[Hypasonic]

Have you had issues with movement beyond a couple fights in Nightmare? I haven't.

No, is that the only tier in legion? No.

[theburned]

I like your enthusiasm for SotF! I still hate the play-style, and always will, it is simply not fun for me and flows very poorly. The same arguments have been made in the past, but I already said that the nature of the argument has been changed with the artifact and T19 synergy (and talents, as you pointed out). So yes, I might have to begrudgingly... "fall in line"...

Also, tell me this: What was the highest "mathematical combination of talents" in HFC? And what did you actually use?

My experience is that the maximum output choices often work well in testing, early progression pulls, or severely mana strained environments (Imperator!) where the raid is constantly strained, but generally once you get to the XXth or XXXth pull on a boss, the healing team has the patterns worked out to the point that other things become more important, such as CDs/Talents that help with areas where the most deaths occur, etc..

And yes, I have had access since the first day of Alpha

I think you may have missed the conversation they were having, it was centered on mana being so constrained that even casting WG outside of SotF might not be something we can support, and very low concurrent usage of Rejuv, so I am not certain what you mean by "a good chunk of mana". My testing has certainly shown that mana is a serious constraint beyond the most rigid playstyle. And yes, trinkets will be our only other choice. My experience tells me that "all of the above" is generally the best option for Druids, especially the first raid.

Having been through this alpha/beta routine, what 4 times now, I have no doubt that most of the TC will fall flat on its face come Mythic raiding. But keep it up, it makes for a good read, and is helpful. I do not have the time I used to for these forums though, or I would be more involved beyond playing... Well until launch, then it is game on.


Have you had issues with movement beyond a couple fights in Nightmare? I haven't.

Quite sure the math including relevant trinkets and later on class trinket instead of UFE, point towards ToL, NV vs HotW still felt like a choice imo.

I believe Sotf with charges is better at adapting to certain situations, and there are plenty of fights where it doesn't provide good numbers because the healing isnt there for a lot more than 10-15 seconds, specifically ursoc and elerethe, I believe a cultivation/inner peace build on xavius though. Cenarius as I said not enough information, but there is a good chance I will find ToL useful.
For nighthold set bonuses will start kicking in, and I believe sotf will start taking over, just because it doesn't provide anything to the other 2 talents.

As for mana, it is definitely constrained, but if you start limiting the amount of weak/pointless rejuvs and start getting used to the fight and use your innervate better, you can get away with far lower mana consumption.

Nightmare is the only raid which is relevant in terms of tranquil mind vs PotA, so I believe it is highly relevant if you have trouble with movement in Emerald nightmare.

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No, is that the only tier in legion? No.

As mentioned earlier, its the only raid in which tranquil mind vs PotA makes a difference.

[Torty]

The weak aura for stat tracking isnt working btw.

edit: ok, it loaded stats randomly after 10 minutes and I have no clue which pull it tracked.

[Sprucelee]

The reasons why using ToL over SoTF has become a 99% choice in HFC have everything to do with gearing and trinkets moreso than SoTF being inherently weak.
- Demonic Phylactery is ridiculously overpowered and gives you more value the more Rejuvs you spam while having a significantly lower relative effect on WG. This trinket pushed us towards a Rejuv spam heavy play style.
- Our class trinket similarly synergizes with Rejuv spam and ToL over SoTF
- We just ended up having a lot more mana than we did in HFC/Highmaul, because of a combination of Phylactery being so strong and all of the extra Lifebloom casts (that were virtually free with Phylactery) that our 2pc/4pc basically forced us to cast severely throttled our mana consumption. As a result, straight Rejuv spam while still getting decent levels of WG usage became much more of a viable thing than it was in Highmaul.

That's why ToL is the default talent, not because SoTF is inherently bad. SoTF vs ToL was virtually a 50/50 selection in the first tier of WoD. The gear scaling and trinkets skewed things in HFC.

As far as where we are now, I think it's pretty clear that ToL is a dead talent and is not a reasonable option in any realistic situation. You are essentially choosing between a Prosperity/SoTF/Spring Blossoms-Inner Peace build or a Cenarion Ward/Cultivation/Germination build. The Cultivation build is more flexible, and possibly stronger if there is steady, constant raid damage and low enough health pools to get good usage out of Cultivation. If the damage is very up and down and spiky, the Cultivation build will be quite weak and you will be pushed to Prosperity-SoTF. The set bonuses are strong enough that Prosperity-SoTF probably becomes the default build regardless of damage patterns. ToL just doesn't really have a niche to fill now that Cultivation is around (Cultivation is a stronger boost to Rejuv 100% of the time that the healing matters, not just 30/180 secs), and it doesn't have synergy with any of the other talents, making it weaker.

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The issue with taking the PoTA path is I still don't think it's a good return on investment.
- Instead of getting your second major trait at 16 points, you aren't getting it until 19 points.
- PoTA is by far the weakest of the major traits. Let's say you average a WG cast every 20 seconds. That means one PoTA proc and essentially 2 free Rejuvs every 80 seconds. That's weak in terms of the numerical effect, and weaker because of the RNG. PoTA is also random targets, so there's no guarantee those Rejuvs cleave to who you want them to.
- Tranquil Mind isn't just about the mobile Tranq - but that is a huge advantage in terms of flexibility. 20% more Tranq healing is extremely strong, and probably works out to a 4-6% pure HPS boost - more if you're taking Inner Peace. Raid cooldowns aren't massively overhealing in Legion like they were in WoD, and that 20% is probably more throughput than either of the other 2 majors. It's also guaranteed, reliable throughput, while both PoTA and Dreamwalker are RNG procs.
- Most artifact calculator projections that I've seen say that it's likely we will be at 22-23 traits by week 1 of Mythic. That means that even if you go to Dreamwalker, then Tranquil Mind, it's likely that you are still 2-3 points into Persistence by the start of Mythic, so there's still a pretty strong chance we will have 3/3 in our strongest 3 point trait.
- While 3 pts in Blessing of the World Tree is weak, you're putting 3 points in Infusion of Nature right away to go the PoTA route. Infusion of Nature is only a 6% WG cost decrease, and is probably one of our weakest traits outside of the near useless ones, so I don't think there's that much of a difference in "wasted points". You're also building towards a much weaker major trait.

I still think we'd be far better served going the conventional wisdom Dreamwalker then Tranquil Mind route. The 6% mana regen will be a loss, but so is a 20% weaker Tranq. You can play around 6% less regen by more conservative casting.

Well, I was just making a point that what is mathematically superior is not always the best choice... For reasons. Also, everyone seems to be forgetting BRF. The shift away occurred pretty quickly, in fact I personally was fully into HotW and TOL before Imperator. Overall, the use of SotF was very limited in WoD.

I have said that SotF is looking very strong this time around when all the synergies are factored in. But I am still not convinced it will stay that way. Even the fact you openly call a talent "dead" may mean further tuning will/should occur. And frankly, I have always found SotF to be weak in a spikey damage (implying topping off occurs) environment, our spells just do not compete well in that environment and end up overhealing. Once a healing team knows a fight, it is a game of who can snipe up spikes quickest, which is neither a very helpful nor strong point of our kit. You often end up in a pattern of "wasting" swiftmend on any target with a deficit (and not for critical targets) in order to have SotF ready to use for WG either in anticipation of or following a mechanic, and then hoping WG can compete (throwing in G'hanir, etc.) with spells better designed for burst healing.

In my experience that is the fault/trap of the CD dependent style of SotF, you end up sitting on WG and swiftmend for use with SotF with certain mechanics, it often works well in early pulls, but by the time a progression kill is close the value of that style becomes diminished on a healing team. Our kit just has never competed well in that fashion, or been the best option. There are multiple reasons I find this to be a bad play-style, but essentially I feel a less restrained and free flowing style that is more focused on continuous stabilization, tank healing, and triage (actually saving Swiftmend for critical targets?), to work better to actually kill dragons (while maybe not theoretically netting highest HPS). And this coincidentally often favors the addition of a CD option, like ToL (or HotW in WoD) to allow a Druid to focus on smoothing out the most difficult portions of a fight during progression.

I find SotF plays a better role in constant damage or very long periods of recovery (or say multiple de-buffed targets), so if that is the case, I do expect it to win out at this point. But that may also fit cultivation well, and could end up being more efficient, so we will see once we really dig into mythic. I am thinking SotF may be best in the middle, where the raid is high enough for Cultivation to proc less, but low enough to make SotF overheal very little. But with spiky or lower overall damage; but potentially distinct periods of intense damage, something like ToL with Inner Peace might not be a bad option...

I like to think that swapping talents from encounter to encounter will be optimal One can wish!

As for the artifact paths, I may go the alternate route to PotA after Dreamwalker, just because it feels like the right move based in experience. I also feel like it will help in pushing early 5 man content. I honestly had no real issue with movement in Nightmare other than Dragons. Regardless, it is a very transient and minor decision, because as you note, we will pass the third gold very shortly after anyway...

[Tiberria]

Well, I was just making a point that what is mathematically superior is not always the best choice... For reasons. Also, everyone seems to be forgetting BRF. The shift away occurred pretty quickly, the use of SotF was very limited in WoD.

I have said that SotF is looking very strong this time around when all the synergies are factored in. But I am still not convinced it will stay that way. Even the fact you openly call a talent "dead" may mean further tuning will/should occur. And frankly, I have always found SotF to be weak in a spikey damage (implying topping off occurs) environment, our spells just do not compete well in that environment and end up overhealing. Once a healing team knows a fight, it is a game of who can snipe up spikes quickest, which is neither a very helpful nor strong point of our kit. You often end up in a pattern of "wasting" swiftmend on any target with a deficit (and not for critical targets) in order to have SotF ready to use for WG either in anticipation of or following a mechanic, and then hoping WG can compete (throwing in G'hanir, etc.) with spells better designed for burst healing.

In my experience that is the fault/trap of the CD dependent style of SotF, you end up sitting on WG and swiftmend for use with SotF with certain mechanics, it often works well in early pulls, but by the time a progression kill is close the value of that style becomes diminished on a healing team. Our kit just has never competed well in that fashion, or been the best option. There are multiple reasons I find this to be a bad play-style, but essentially I feel a less restrained and free flowing style that is more focused on continuous stabilization, tank healing, and triage (actually saving Swiftmend for critical targets?), to work better to actually kill dragons (while maybe not theoretically netting highest HPS). And this coincidentally often favors the addition of a CD option, like ToL (or HotW in WoD) to allow a Druid to focus on smoothing out the most difficult portions of a fight during progression.

I find SotF plays a better role in constant damage or very long periods of recovery (or say multiple de-buffed targets), so if that is the case, I do expect it to win out at this point. But that may also fit cultivation well, and could end up being more efficient, so we will see once we really dig into mythic. I am thinking SotF may be best in the middle, where the raid is high enough for Cultivation to proc less, but low enough to make SotF overheal very little. But with spiky or lower overall damage; but potentially distinct periods of intense damage, something like ToL with Inner Peace might not be a bad option...

I like to think that swapping talents from encounter to encounter will be optimal One can wish!

As for the artifact paths, I may go the alternate route to PotA after Dreamwalker, just because it feels like the right move based in experience. I also feel like it will help in pushing early 5 man content. I honestly had no real issue with movement in Nightmare other than Dragons. Regardless, it is a very transient and minor decision, because as you note, we will pass the third gold very shortly after anyway...

SoTF was pretty much on par with ToL throughput most of T17. What started moving us away from that into BRF was that they buffed the Blast Furnace and Blackhand Spirit trinkets to give such an outrageous amount of Spirit, that we were back to being able to spam Rejuv, whereas SoTF is typically a play style built around maximizing HPM and burst where needed.

At any rate, I think the combination of Prosperity allowing you to bank charges (and potentially have 2xSoTF WGs 10 seconds apart if needed) adds a lot of flexibility that negates many of the issues you raise. Flourish and Essence of G'Hanir also add a lot of customization to it by letting you decide which of your SoTF casts will be more super charged. Additionally, we have the option of taking a throughput proc trinket and trying to line some (or all) of that stuff up with an INT proc if doing so is advantageous. I don't think that Swiftmend on its own is an impactful enough heal to be worried about saving it as an emergency heal. In no way is it a Lay on Hands or HW: Serenity caliber single target save. It only heals for about as much as a Rejuv over its full duration, and the average healing done by a Regrowth (with crit chance and Living Seed rolled up) isn't that far off what Swiftmend heals for. If you really want single target saves, you should probably just take Moment of Clarity.

The issue with changing talents on the fly is that taking SoTF or taking Cultivation pretty much lock you into other talents that synergize with them. Plus, the stat and gearing priority totally changes in a SoTF build vs a Cultivation build. It's fairly likely that we are going to have to invest in to one build or another - at least during initial raid gearing, because swapping between them on a per fight basis isn't going to be nearly as effective if you can't completely change your gear out (mastery heavy for Cultivation, avoid mastery as much as possible for SoTF). Inner Peace vs Spring Blossoms is likely to be the talent that we do end up swapping between the most.

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But with spiky or lower overall damage; but potentially distinct periods of intense damage, something like ToL with Inner Peace might not be a bad option...

The issue is - in a situation where ToL would be highly effective, Cultivation and going ham on Rejuv spam will just be better anyway. As long as targets are <60% HP (and presumably they would be if you want to get good use out of something like ToL), Cultivation buffs Rejuv by about 80%. That's generally a stronger net buff than the 15% healing buff, +50% to Rejuv, and +2 targets to WG that you get out of ToL. Plus, you have it as a passive whenever you want/need it whereas ToL is only up 1/6 of the time. The mana reduction is all that you really net out of ToL, and it just isn't good enough when Cultivation is available all the time and probably better when you do take full advantage of it.

There's just no real place for ToL unless they buff it in some way.

[Asrialol]

Has anyone tried Mythic+ on beta? How is resto druid compared to the other healers?