PSA: Legion Prepatch Guides - Azortharion

[zenyatta]

You have Crit listed as the worst stat for BM, yet the Skull ranks really high on the trinket list. What's up with the Skull?

[Dracodraco]

You have Crit listed as the worst stat for BM, yet the Skull ranks really high on the trinket list. What's up with the Skull?

It's simply a shitton stronger than the alternatives. All HFC trinkets were nerfed, so a unnerfed 725 trinket is extremely strong.

[zenyatta]

Wowza, I know they were getting nerfed but I didn't realise it was that hard. That's ... kinda scary, lol. Thankfully, I have a habit of clinging to trinket "just in case". Thanks for the reply/

[WeaszelB]

So, looking at Survival it seems like you suggest only using Raptor Strike to refresh Mok'Nathal. However, when speccing into Throwing Axes Raptor Strike is just a lackluster focus dump. Since Flanking Strike more than covers for our focus dump needs and does more damage per focus spent you should ignore Raptor Strike all together, correct? Unless specifically speccing into Serpent Sting or Mok'Nathal it just seems like a waste of focus and GCDs. Or at least, it seems like a waste now at 100. I do not have experience in the beta at 110 to know if this is true after leveling up your artifact.

If this was implied in the guide, then I am sorry for wasting your time. I wasn't 100% sure.

[Deleted]

I was wondering if anyone can clear up when exactly to use Marked Shot as MM. Do I understand it correctly that I'm supposed to use it directly after sidewinders? Because I thought you'd it to prolong the Vulnerable buff, like: Sidewinders - AiS - AiS and then Marked Shot so that it still profits from Vulnerable itself but also prolongs it so I can fit in another AiS after before I Sidewinders again (in an ideal scenario). Thanks for some help.

Edit: Oh nevermind, the guide got more detailed on this.

[mcdastar]

Hey Azortharion. Thanks for updating the guides. Is there any updates coming for your UI too?

[Deleted]

Any suggestion for a leveling build for 100-110, BM? I was thinking 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1, but I've never played BM and barely played a hunter before (going to boost a gnome hunter for Legion, as an alt).
Later edit: Nvm, I've seen the leveling build, but I'm still not sure if Big Game Hunter is not preferable to Way of the Cobra for leveling, since it also affects autoattacks and the increase to Cobra is bigger in case of crits. Also, I think I'd rather have Dire Frenzy than Stomp, since it would let me use more Cobra Shots (and have less whistling, hopefully). Blink Strikes also seems preferable versus Bestial Fury, since it would avoid pathing issues and such during leveling, versus a cooldown improvement which doesn't matter as much since targets die so fast.

[Aneri]

do i get the SV guide right? You dont cast Raptor Strike unless you have the talent Way of the Mok'Nathal? Focus Dump is either Flanking Strike or Throwing Axes.

[Bullettime]

Does Barrage use different ratios between BM and MM? Or what's the difference with Volley between the specs?

Just wondering since it's confusing seeing Volley is considered crap for MM but situationally good for BM.

[3clipse]

Does Barrage use different ratios between BM and MM? Or what's the difference with Volley between the specs?

Just wondering since it's confusing seeing Volley is considered crap for MM but situationally good for BM.

I'm not sure myself. The guides say AMoC > Volley = Barrage for single target, but testing on dummies last night I was getting Barrage > AMoC > Volley for total DPS over the course of one minute (and no, Barrage and Volley were not hitting multiple dummies).

[Aldare]

Does Barrage use different ratios between BM and MM? Or what's the difference with Volley between the specs?

Just wondering since it's confusing seeing Volley is considered crap for MM but situationally good for BM.

MM's mastery will affect Barrage since it's a focus consuming ability. BM doesn't get any bonuses to Barrage.

[Azortharion]

I'm not sure myself. The guides say AMoC > Volley = Barrage for single target, but testing on dummies last night I was getting Barrage > AMoC > Volley for total DPS over the course of one minute (and no, Barrage and Volley were not hitting multiple dummies).

It's been said one billion times before, and I'll say it the 1.000.000.001st time, target dummy DPS testing is not valid.

[3clipse]

It's been said one billion times before, and I'll say it the 1.000.000.001st time, target dummy DPS testing is not valid.

It doesn't track with my data on mobs either dude, and while sims are great, all the sims are updating like hourly right now with the new stuff (I have seen fully three different stat priorities sim the highest for BM, so I'm taking sims with a gallon of salt right now).

- - - Updated - - -

Kay, just went out and whacked at level 100 mobs in Tanaan. I'm still getting Barrage > AMoC > Volley for BM.

[Dracodraco]

It doesn't track with my data on mobs either dude, and while sims are great, all the sims are updating like hourly right now with the new stuff (I have seen fully three different stat priorities sim the highest for BM, so I'm taking sims with a gallon of salt right now).

- - - Updated - - -

Kay, just went out and whacked at level 100 mobs in Tanaan. I'm still getting Barrage > AMoC > Volley for BM.

That's the issue with testing outside of a simulated environment, by the way. While Barrage might do *more* damage than AMOC over the same time (so say, 3 barrages to 1 AMOCS in 1 minute), you're only tracking the *damage*. You are not taking into account:

Barrage costs double the focus - FOR ONE USE - of AMOC (thus meaning you can't spend that focus on other things. 3 Uses of Barrage costs 150 focus more).
Barrage takes longer to execute (2.6 second channel on my MM hunter, versus a global cooldown. Times 3, so 7.8 seconds vs whatever your global is).
AMOC needs 15 seconds for its full duration to take effect. Whacking a random mob likely won't have them survive that long.

Etc etc... It's better to trust the sims that can actually calculate this, than go and say "OH MY GOD THIS ABILITY DID MORE DAMAGE IN A VACCUUM! BETTER IGNORE ALL OTHER FACTORS!"

[3clipse]

That's the issue with testing outside of a simulated environment, by the way. While Barrage might do *more* damage than AMOC over the same time (so say, 3 barrages to 1 AMOCS in 1 minute), you're only tracking the *damage*. You are not taking into account:

Barrage costs double the focus - FOR ONE USE - of AMOC (thus meaning you can't spend that focus on other things. 3 Uses of Barrage costs 150 focus more).
Barrage takes longer to execute (2.6 second channel on my MM hunter, versus a global cooldown. Times 3, so 7.8 seconds vs whatever your global is).
AMOC needs 15 seconds for its full duration to take effect. Whacking a random mob likely won't have them survive that long.

Etc etc... It's better to trust the sims that can actually calculate this, than go and say "OH MY GOD THIS ABILITY DID MORE DAMAGE IN A VACCUUM! BETTER IGNORE ALL OTHER FACTORS!"

In theory, sure. Right now every sim is giving different results and it's changing every few hours, so I'm pretty reticent to trust sim results about 7.0.

edit: also for the record I did factor in increased focus cost + channel time in determining DPS for Barrage vs. AMoC, I wasn't just going OMG THIS ONE HITS HARDER RIGHT NOW.

[Dracodraco]

In theory, sure. Right now every sim is giving different results and it's changing every few hours, so I'm pretty reticent to trust sim results about 7.0.

edit: also for the record I did factor in increased focus cost + channel time in determining DPS for Barrage vs. AMoC, I wasn't just going OMG THIS ONE HITS HARDER RIGHT NOW.

It's fine if you don't trust the sims, but generally, AMOC has been shown to be stronger in the vast majority of cases I've seen. It's pretty much word against word on a spec that isn't going to be used on live (because it's inferior to MM in every way), and is still being tuned on PTR.

And for the record, that's exactly what you did - I don't see you posting any math anywhere. I just see you saying "testing it on random mobs shows barrage is higher overall DPS than AMOC". Considering the stupidity people have to answer on these forums, unless you can prove that you're actually testing things in a correct manner, we're probably going to assume you're not untill proven wrong.

[Azortharion]

It doesn't track with my data on mobs either dude, and while sims are great, all the sims are updating like hourly right now with the new stuff (I have seen fully three different stat priorities sim the highest for BM, so I'm taking sims with a gallon of salt right now).

- - - Updated - - -

Kay, just went out and whacked at level 100 mobs in Tanaan. I'm still getting Barrage > AMoC > Volley for BM.

This is just wrong. There are wrong, and there are correct SimCraft stat priorities, the wrong ones are the fault of the person running the sims, not SimCraft itself, getting the methodology right for running sims is important. SimCraft for Hunters isn't being updated "hourly" with new shit that changes things. There have been no meaningful balance changes for a few days now, and that last one didn't even affect any decision making.

To think that your anecdotal experience is better than even a "wrong" sim is a joke. Do you have a feel for what stat is better too? Did you go test that on some dummies?

[3clipse]

This is just wrong. There are wrong, and there are correct SimCraft stat priorities, the wrong ones are the fault of the person running the sims, not SimCraft itself, getting the methodology right for running sims is important. SimCraft for Hunters isn't being updated "hourly" with new shit that changes things. There have been no meaningful balance changes for a few days now, and that last one didn't even affect any decision making.

To think that your anecdotal experience is better than even a "wrong" sim is a joke. Do you have a feel for what stat is better too? Did you go test that on some dummies?

You seem awfully mad. Did I kill your family in a past life or something?

Anyway, you've got one priority. Another theorycrafter on this very forum has a different one. A hunter blog that I trust has a third priority. There's a whole thread at The Lodge working on SimC parameters, that was updating their SimC version as recently as last night (haven't looked today).

My point is that the sims are conflicting, and I have yet to see a reason to think any one of them is the correct one that I should be trusting. Data I can collect myself is substantially more useful in that case because it's at least clearly real in the game. When 3 simulations disagree, how do you tell if any of them are even accurately reflecting gameplay? You can't.

Your sims could be right. Or, Ettin'ss could be right. Or, Bendak's could be right. I have no reason to trust any of them unless you can show me actual data proving why one is more accurate than the others.

edit: Incidentally, this is why we don't use simulations for everything in life, we do science. Simulations are great when you're sure they're accurate but if you can no longer depend on that then they're completely worthless.

[Azortharion]

Enjoy your feelycrafting, I am sure it'll take you far.

I am involved with a lot of the APL changes going over on Trueshot. By FAR the majority of them do not even affect the prepatch. Nor do they affect stat priorities. Anything, honestly. And even if they did, they'd still be better than your anecdotal experience, because your anecdotal experience is not scientifically valid by any stretch from here and to the Sun. You ask for data, but you provide one. All you've said is that in "your experience", X talent is better than Y talent while MUCH more valid -data- (because yes, sims ARE actually data, they aren't based on make-belief or some bullshit like that). It's also fair to expect that SimCraft plays better than you, a fairly thick-headed individual, further discrediting your unfounded claims.

[3clipse]

I will, thank you!