1. #3061
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    I agree with pretty much all of this, but will it really end up in a ST dps loss if you pick implosion? My Warlock has pvp gear only but imps deal like 3-4k per bolt and explode for 20k (not sure if it can crit). I guess Demonbolt will deal less damage but 1 DB is somewhere in the 25-30k range.

    I didn't do much aside from testing the rotation but it certainly looks like the imps wouldn't last enough to outperform Implosion if you cast it right after you summon the next set.
    Perhaps in the pre-patch this might be the case, but in Legion you need to factor in the Artifact traits that buff/get buffed by your imps: Imp-erator, Infernal Furnace and the gold trait Stolen Power.
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  2. #3062
    Deleted
    By the sound of it, Implosion is a ST increase too, just not as high as picking one of the other two talents...so you aren't really killing your ST damage/potential.

  3. #3063
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    and aff, and dest without soul entropy... we complained lots during the alpha / beta but apparently this is how they want it.
    As destro I still hardly ever life tap when using cataclysm instead of reverse entropy. Are you talking about using mana tap? If not I'm honestly puzzled as to how our experiences are so different on this.

  4. #3064
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    As someone said, the sad thing is that uninformed people will presume demo is the go-to spec and they'll take it in Legion before they realise it's shite outside the novelty factor.

    I find it quite hilarious that Blizzard can post

    "a lot of the current nerfs/buffs do not reflect the reality of the power of each class, what data is this based upon?
    .Internal and external testing. Remember that during beta, individuals' views of the overall state of things is very limited. "


    So basically demo is crap without T18 and class trinket, and ludicrously overpowered with it. I guess the two balance each other out or something? lol

    They always post the same old guff about "internal numbers" (which are never, ever made public) and "we know warlocks are perfectly fine, you guys playing one don't know what you're talking about"

    Usually followed a month later by major revisions. Shame it will take so long in Legion to get demo is a workable state, if it ever is, that everyone will have long since dumped it for destruction, and levelled up the artefact.

    Make the most of demo in live - it's actually fun with the massive armies of imps and dogs and satyrs and you destroy the meters . Won't be once Legion hits.
    Last edited by mmoc7a6bdbfc72; 2016-07-21 at 05:41 PM.

  5. #3065
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Well, I don't think there is anything to worry about, I can bet at least one spec will get boost fast as soon as Blizzard sees everyone and their mothers being Destruction.

    Basically what happened at start of WoD when Demo was boosted to stratosphere in a single hotfix.

  6. #3066
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Basically what happened at start of WoD when Demo was boosted to stratosphere in a single hotfix.
    Which was odd, because all 3 specs were seeing solid representation and were reasonably balanced at the start until they made that change. And then they did that and bam t17 happened and they gutted it right after.

    I rly dunno what they're going to do, if they stick to their design principles aff will be way too difficult for the average player so they can't make it *thee* spec. Demo mechanically just can't be competitive at the kind of dmg that typically matters for progression, so it'd need to be overtuned for the kind of dmg that it can do to have a reason to be taken over destro. And then destros destro, which frankly has been a popular spec ever since 5.0 even when it was undertuned.

    I dunno, it'll be interesting to see what they do. Especially in the face of artifacts and all the controversy it would cause if they over-buffed or gutted a spec after people have invested literal weeks / months into a spec and gotten legendaries for it that they simply can't swap from.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  7. #3067
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Well, I don't think there is anything to worry about, I can bet at least one spec will get boost fast as soon as Blizzard sees everyone and their mothers being Destruction.

    Basically what happened at start of WoD when Demo was boosted to stratosphere in a single hotfix.
    Idk people really enjoy bitching about balance. We've had at the very least one competitive spec (and by competitive I mean either top tier or very close to it) for a long ass time.

  8. #3068
    Quote Originally Posted by striderZA View Post
    Idk people really enjoy bitching about balance. We've had at the very least one competitive spec (and by competitive I mean either top tier or very close to it) for a long ass time.
    I imagine that's because people enjoy playing what they enjoy playing and more often than not identify with a spec and not a class. Hence artifacts etc. If you're a demo lock, and that's the fantasy you've always enjoyed for yourself, you don't really care if aff or destro is super competitive.

    People round here are more the class identity crowd, but there's a reason they're honing in on spec identity with legion.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  9. #3069
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    Quote Originally Posted by striderZA View Post
    Idk people really enjoy bitching about balance. We've had at the very least one competitive spec (and by competitive I mean either top tier or very close to it) for a long ass time.
    Because

    (a) I don't want to feel pidgeonholed into destruction yet again just because a spec with burst and cleave always wins out on average
    (b) I don't want yet another expac where Blizz have an opportunity to fix the mechanical weaknesses of affliction and demonology everyone has complained about for the last ten years and they fail again namely burst and cleave


    In Draenor the three specs were actually fairly reasonably and decently represented, then they buffed demonology and then acted surprised when everyone took it, so they nerfed it through the floor so everyone took destruction instead

    Demonology's problems aren;t just raw output, it's mechanically lousy - it's rubbish at sustained aoe, rubbish at cleave, it's hobbled by ludicrously long hard-casts (I'm guessing that the thinking is to have locks with their shields and mitigation to not move out of the fire, which is bull for mythic and probably heroic progression because you'll get one-shotted anyway) and it's lumbered with the ancient pet AI plus pets that are DOTs with legs that won't switch targets

    Demo would be viable IF it had the absurdly strong buffs the T18 and trinket give it now to mitigate it's mechanical weaknesses but that would mean on a ST fight it would absolutely dominate everyone.

    As Baconegg points out we now have the complication of artifacts, which means you not only level a character but level a spec, and you might chose the "wrong" one to start with and be lumbered with a below the tanks performer for months until they do something. Or alternatively you might make a good choice only to find Blizzard nerf it to oblivion because it's "too popular"

    I just don't understand how Blizz can mess up demo yet again, but they have. As demo currently stands, it is simply not going to be played for progression raiding.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Well, I don't think there is anything to worry about, I can bet at least one spec will get boost fast as soon as Blizzard sees everyone and their mothers being Destruction.

    Basically what happened at start of WoD when Demo was boosted to stratosphere in a single hotfix.
    Well, their reaction to everyone playing demo was to nerf it across the board by 25%. Blizz just as often nerf a good spec to make the two bad ones look good, as they do boosting a bad one

    The reaction is just as likely to be nerfing destruction. And even destruction doesn't really shine, as things stand I don't see why you'd take a warlock of any spec to Mythic+ modes if you could take hunters, mages, DK's or even a shaman instead.

    Affliction and even more demo are hobbled by their basic mechanics, not raw damage output (but none of them are great even on that)

    We're just over five weeks away from Legion launch. I suspect what we see now is what we're going to get. It's too late for mechanics fixes, unless they decide to make demonology do everything while moving or have instant casts

  10. #3070
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    Demonology's problems aren;t just raw output, it's mechanically lousy - it's rubbish at sustained aoe, rubbish at cleave, it's hobbled by ludicrously long hard-casts
    I would argue pretty strongly against the claim we're lousy at aoe. Implosion spam is very solid sustained aoe, especially at 4+ targets when Demonwrath floods you with shards, and we have some of the strongest burst aoe in the game with double felstorm, infernal, and a single wave of implosion. In my moderate experience playing the new demo the last six or so weeks, I am never at the bottom on aoe pulls, burst or sustained, and am very often at the top. The only thing that really blows us away in burst aoe is Lord of Flames, which is obviously limited to every 10 minutes.

    I think the problem is just that Destro is absurdly overpowered with Wreak Havoc. That talent alone makes it impossible to go aff or demo for serious progression cleave fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    The reaction is just as likely to be nerfing destruction. And even destruction doesn't really shine, as things stand I don't see why you'd take a warlock of any spec to Mythic+ modes if you could take hunters, mages, DK's or even a shaman instead.
    Honestly I think Destro's kit does need nerfed relative to aff and demo, namely its cleave potential. I then think demo needs a few kit tweaks to make it progression viable. But claiming we won't get taken to Mythic+ is absurd. We're a pure, we're ranged, and we have battle rez. The whole "not being taken to raids/mythic+" thing is the biggest skies falling trope on these boards. It's not going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    We're just over five weeks away from Legion launch. I suspect what we see now is what we're going to get. It's too late for mechanics fixes, unless they decide to make demonology do everything while moving or have instant casts
    So, so many of our problems would be fixed by simply making DE instant. We'd suddenly have a ton of movement that gave us some breathing room on the rest of our unforgiving casts, namely the haste-hating TKC. I don't think this is a permanent solution to Demo's problems, but this would be a very very quick and easy fix that would give us some breathing room while they think out more elegant ways to address demo's issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Demo mechanically just can't be competitive at the kind of dmg that typically matters for progression ... it'll be interesting to see what they do. Especially in the face of artifacts and all the controversy it would cause if they over-buffed or gutted a spec after people have invested literal weeks / months into a spec and gotten legendaries for it that they simply can't swap from.
    I don't think Demo is nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be, but I do agree it has many issues, and that you can't logically play it over destruction in serious progression. That said, I am in love with the spec, and am pretty sure that I'm just going to YOLO it, level Demo and the artifact, and just hope Blizzard addresses it in some way by the time we start raiding. I'm so damn tired of destruction. At least I'll be one of the poor suckers contributing aggregate data for Blizzard's monitoring of the spec.
    Last edited by Smog; 2016-07-21 at 07:51 PM.

  11. #3071
    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    --snipperino--
    Well, I wasn't referring to mechanics and playstyle when I said that people have a knack to complain about balance. I'm not disagreeing with you, the new Demo has some serious flaws and I have been vocal about my dislike towards it since it was released. I have not cared much for Demo since the WoD changes, and unless it performs really well on some fight I probably won't touch it, since its target switching is atrocious and there's ages of build up time.

    I also don't think being pigeonholed into Destruction "again" is fair, early MoP (T14) was the last time I remember Destruction being a go-to, Demo was absurdly good in T15 and Affliction was the same in T16. Destro was good for a short while in T17 until they decided to buff Demo through the roof and proceeded to give it a ridiculous 4PC bonus in BRF. Destro was solid for most fights early in HFC, but there were fights where Affliction and/or Demo did really good as well (really good as in either of them was the best progress spec for various reasons). Do you mean burst/cleave in the Legion specs or previous expansions?

    And lastly, playing a pure class, it's unlikely that you'll stick with a single artifact and spend everything on improving that artifact, nevermind the fact that artifact knowledge that you'll be accumulating in any case really doesn't make it the end of the world to switch specs.

  12. #3072
    Quote Originally Posted by striderZA View Post
    Idk people really enjoy bitching about balance. We've had at the very least one competitive spec (and by competitive I mean either top tier or very close to it) for a long ass time.
    I think that largely (not for all but the great majority who bitch), "balance" means: "My preferred spec is top 5 on every encounter and the best spec on a few encounters per tier"

    They also tend to try to prove things aren't balanced for them (i.e. they need buffs) by pointing to the one overpowered spec at a given moment and saying they can't compete.

    I've been playing this game almost 10 years at a reasonably high level and have always mained a warlock. There were only 2 brief times when warlocks were not welcomed in raids - End of ToC and Spine of Deathwing. And even in both of those cases, you brought one warlock (for the wrong reasons, but still)

    Aside from those two times we were top tier damage in most tiers (several times far and away best dps class) and way above average in all others. There is literally no track record of warlocks being "bottom of the barrel" or any other such nonsense. It's ridiculous and annoying for anyone to suggest otherwise. Get some perspective, go outside. There's no such thing as a guild that stacks 14 of a single spec to raid. At the margins some very high end guilds drop specs that are at the very bottom, but that has about a 1% chance of impacting warlocks at any given time, and a 0% chance of impacting the people publicly complaining about it.

    @striderZA this is obviously not directed at you, but towards the general (and generally stupid) complaining in this and other threads.

  13. #3073
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiroth99 View Post
    Well, their reaction to everyone playing demo was to nerf it across the board by 25%. Blizz just as often nerf a good spec to make the two bad ones look good, as they do boosting a bad one

    The reaction is just as likely to be nerfing destruction. And even destruction doesn't really shine, as things stand I don't see why you'd take a warlock of any spec to Mythic+ modes if you could take hunters, mages, DK's or even a shaman instead.

    Affliction and even more demo are hobbled by their basic mechanics, not raw damage output (but none of them are great even on that)

    We're just over five weeks away from Legion launch. I suspect what we see now is what we're going to get. It's too late for mechanics fixes, unless they decide to make demonology do everything while moving or have instant casts
    OR

    You are just overreacting? Like seriously reading you and it's as if Blizzard is hell bent on destroying warlocks at all costs... We do somehow end up being very good every expansion, guess they are really bad at nerfing warlocks then.

    Point is, you may not like it in your Blizzard bashing spree of depression, but Blizzard does act if there is an issue with a class at least, we have many examples of Warlocks being buffed through the roof in various stages of expansion, notably Highmaul and SoO, so no, their solution is not only to nerf something that works, but often buff something that does not.

    That's even before taking into account the fact that Destruction is a pretty damn good spec for Mythic+ (Wreak Havoc is insane really, if you won't be topping most trash pulls and half of the bosses - you will need to hide in shame really) and other stuff as well, so your hunter/mage/DK claim is void really.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2016-07-21 at 07:57 PM.

  14. #3074
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    There is literally no track record of warlocks being "bottom of the barrel" or any other such nonsense. It's ridiculous and annoying for anyone to suggest otherwise.
    You should visit the battle.net forums more often :P

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Destruction is a pretty damn good spec for Mythic+ (Wreak Havoc is insane really)
    Yeah, Wreak Havoc is pretty absurd.

  15. #3075
    Stood in the Fire Smog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    snip
    Nailed it.

  16. #3076
    Quote Originally Posted by Smog View Post
    I don't think Demo is nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be, but I do agree it has many issues, and that you can't logically play it over destruction in serious progression. That said, I am in love with the spec, and am pretty sure that I'm just going to YOLO it, level Demo and the artifact, and just hope Blizzard addresses it in some way by the time we start raiding. I'm so damn tired of destruction. At least I'll be one of the poor suckers contributing aggregate data for Blizzard's monitoring of the spec.
    Thing is it mechanically simply can't do things. If you had to progress on mythic archie for instance where your only purpose in life was to blow up adds in under 10 seconds you simply couldn't play demo as your only ability to try and handle them would be a single cast of TC and then implosion. Or say last tier where our only purpose on blackhand was to stun and aoe burst down the balcony adds.

    There'd need to be something in the kit that currently doesn't exist to handle those situations. A simple thing they could do that would work a lot of the time would just be to give it some way to make the guardians swap targets (something I and others recommended during early alpha) but afaik they haven't done that so... it ends up just being a really awkward dot spec with the same limitations.

    Hence it'd need to just be overtuned for the kind of damage it can do to see any play. Otherwise it needs fundamental changes.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  17. #3077
    Stood in the Fire Smog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Thing is it mechanically simply can't do things. If you had to progress on mythic archie for instance where your only purpose in life was to blow up adds in under 10 seconds you simply couldn't play demo as your only ability to try and handle them would be a single cast of TC and then implosion. Or say last tier where our only purpose on blackhand was to stun and aoe burst down the balcony adds.

    There'd need to be something in the kit that currently doesn't exist to handle those situations. A simple thing they could do that would work a lot of the time would just be to give it some way to make the guardians swap targets (something I and others recommended during early alpha) but afaik they haven't done that so... it ends up just being a really awkward dot spec with the same limitations.

    Hence it'd need to just be overtuned for the kind of damage it can do to see any play. Otherwise it needs fundamental changes.
    I absolutely agree, man. But it's more than possible they just don't want Demo to be a burst-capable spec. It's very possible they want it to be in the same position as CoP Shadow in late WoD: a long-ramping ST monster that just doesn't target swap. This just means other people in the raid have to cover that role; or, demo isn't taken for that specific encounter on bleeding edge progression.

    When we're talking top of the line mythic progression, it's not realistic to expect every spec to be able to be used on every fight.

    But believe me, I'm not disagreeing with you on the fundamental level. I'm just being realistic and playing devil's advocate a bit. I love Demo; it's my favorite spec I've played maybe in the entire history of this game. I want nothing more for them than to take the core concepts and rebuild the kit to be more friendly on the competitive level. I just don't think it's going to happen soon, and probably not even within the lifetime of this expansion. I'm assuming they'll just overtune the shit out of it and you'll swap to it on purely ST fights or fights with the occasional huge wave of adds where you can abuse Implosion and DE'd Infernals/double Felstorms.
    Last edited by Smog; 2016-07-21 at 11:23 PM.

  18. #3078
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smog View Post
    I absolutely agree, man. But it's more than possible they just don't want Demo to be a burst-capable spec. It's very possible they want it to be in the same position as CoP Shadow in late WoD: a long-ramping ST monster that just doesn't target swap. This just means other people in the raid have to cover that role; or, demo isn't taken for that specific encounter on bleeding edge progression.

    When we're talking top of the line mythic progression, it's not realistic to expect every spec to be able to be used on every fight.

    But believe me, I'm not disagreeing with you on the fundamental level. I'm just being realistic and playing devil's advocate a bit. I love Demo; it's my favorite spec I've played maybe in the entire history of this game. I want nothing more for them than to take the core concepts and rebuild the kit to be more friendly on the competitive level. I just don't think it's going to happen soon, and probably not even within the lifetime of this expansion. I'm assuming they'll just overtune the shit out of it and you'll swap to it on purely ST fights or fights with the occasional huge wave of adds where you can abuse Implosion and DE'd Infernals/double Felstorms.
    They are concerns that were raised with the very concept of a Summoner spec, long before they decided it would be the path for Demo; they've known them actively since at least MoP alpha when they tried it and didn't like it themselves for these very reasons and opted not to go down this path back then. So you're right, it really isn't something that bothers them any more because it's so well documented, it's just a feature of the spec that it's no good at those things.

    Where its strengths lie? I guess we'll see as tuning goes on and people are more familiar with the encounters put in front of them.

    In the meantime, if you liked old Demo with Meta, I'll point you in the direction of the new Shadow; it's really, really nice. Very torn now between that and Mage (Frost/Fire).

  19. #3079
    Maybe some of the issues could be fixed if they gave a new spell that would allow us to command all the pets at once to attack a specific target. You know like the one that already exists but only for your main pet, but instead it would direct all pets at once.

  20. #3080
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nere View Post
    Maybe some of the issues could be fixed if they gave a new spell that would allow us to command all the pets at once to attack a specific target. You know like the one that already exists but only for your main pet, but instead it would direct all pets at once.
    Implosion does exactly that and it's not a bad burst at all and instant AoE at that.

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