Is enhancement ST rotation really this slow (and easy)??

[Tolian]

Finally had some spare time last night to set up my WeakAuras and start messing with it. Based on Wordup's latest google doc for the pre-patch I was doing the following:

Feral Spirits on CD
Frostbrand, with refresh below 4.5 seconds
Boulderfist if it's at 1 charge and is about to hit it's second charge
Using Stormbringer procs
Flametongue, with refresh below 4.5 seconds (in practice I was just using 2 consecutive GCDs on this and Frostbrand to make it easier)
Stormstrike (non-Stormbringer)
Lava Lash when above 90 or so MP

Frostbrand and Flametongue are essentially 20s buffs due to pandemic refreshes, Feral is a 2 min fire and forget CD, and Boulderfist isn't a particularly fast CD either. So in practice I found myself sitting around auto-attacking while waiting for Stormbringer procs, with an occasional Boulderfist click and Lava Lash click. And Boulderfist becomes even less engaging if you just burn both charges at once, and make sure you don't a) cap and b) drop so low on maelstrom that you don't have enough to utilize however many Stormbringer procs you might get before the next Boulderfist charge.

Is that really all there is to it? I feel like there must be more, but reading through the guide and watching the video I don't see anything else. Which makes this essentially a 3 button priority-based rotation. Super yawn-worthy...

[Paula Deen]

Its quite a bit faster with more haste from what I have tested. I could be wrong though, I am not an expert.

[Hekili]

Finally had some spare time last night to set up my WeakAuras and start messing with it. Based on Wordup's latest google doc for the pre-patch I was doing the following:

Feral Spirits on CD
Frostbrand, with refresh below 4.5 seconds
Boulderfist if it's at 1 charge and is about to hit it's second charge
Using Stormbringer procs
Flametongue, with refresh below 4.5 seconds (in practice I was just using 2 consecutive GCDs on this and Frostbrand to make it easier)
Stormstrike (non-Stormbringer)
Lava Lash when above 90 or so MP

Which makes this essentially a 3 button priority-based rotation. Super yawn-worthy...

List 6 abilities. Omit one (Crash Lightning). 6 + 1 = 3.

[Tolian]

List 6 abilities. Omit one (Crash Lightning). 6 + 1 = 3.

I don't really consider maintaining a 20s buff an "ability" in the sense of something to do, do you? So 7-2 = 5. Given that Lava Lash and Crash Lightning are mutually exclusive maelstrom dumps and you don’t use crash on a single target as I understand it, possibly incorrectly, that means 5-1 = 4. Then Feral is one button press every 2 minutes, which also isn’t really a “rotational ability.” So 4-1 = 3.

Do you have anything meaningful to add to the thread?

[Paula Deen]

you don’t use crash on a single target as I understand it

I could be wrong but if my reading of Wordup's spreadsheets are right, you do actually.

[Jotaux]

I don't really consider maintaining a 20s buff an "ability" in the sense of something to do, do you? So 7-2 = 5. Given that Lava Lash and Crash Lightning are mutually exclusive maelstrom dumps and you don’t use crash on a single target as I understand it, possibly incorrectly, that means 5-1 = 4. Then Feral is one button press every 2 minutes, which also isn’t really a “rotational ability.” So 4-1 = 3.

Do you have anything meaningful to add to the thread?

You do use crash lightning with the talent which I believe is the best talent of that tier. How do you not consider something you do as something you do? Like I just don't understand the disconnect there. Your character even swings and hits the target when you use those abilities.

[Tolian]

The Crash Lightning comment is actually the kind of helpful thing I was hoping to get as feedback. So basically then we add Crash in on CD (every 6s or so) for its initial damage and the ground based damage from the talent? Then while CL is on cooldown, at that point LL becomes the maelstrom dump?

As for “something I do not being considered something I do,” really what I’m getting at is that yes, Frostbrand/Flametongue are two additional button presses, however given how infrequently we need to press them I wasn’t really counting them as part of the rotation.

[Paula Deen]

The Crash Lightning comment is actually the kind of helpful thing I was hoping to get as feedback. So basically then we add Crash in on CD (every 6s or so) for its initial damage and the ground based damage from the talent? Then while CL is on cooldown, at that point LL becomes the maelstrom dump?

As for “something I do not being considered something I do,” really what I’m getting at is that yes, Frostbrand/Flametongue are two additional button presses, however given how infrequently we need to press them I wasn’t really counting them as part of the rotation.

From my understanding, for ST, when Stormstrike is on Cooldown and Boulderfist is not charge-capped you are supposed to cast Lava Lash if you are above 90 Maelstorm. If you are below 90, but above 80, you are supposed to cast Crash Lightning.

That is just my understand though, I could be misunderstanding.

[Jotaux]

Also which spec would you say has more than 3 buttons using your metrics?

[Tolian]

TBH, I haven't played very many of my alts yet, so I don't know a lot of the new class/spec rotations. The only one I have played really is my Surv hunter (who is also essentially pretty simple), and an Outlaw Rogue alt I've been goofing around on, which is definitely more than three buttons depending on certain conditionals (RtB driven mainly).

Point being, it just seems like they really simplified the spec. I used to have a ton of WeakAuras set up to help track and maximize damage / ability usage, and as I was setting up new auras I just kept deleting and deleting because there just isn't as much to keep track of and do anymore. Again, preliminary understanding, and for single target, without artifact maxxed, etc, so who knows in the future.

[Jotaux]

TBH, I haven't played very many of my alts yet, so I don't know a lot of the new class/spec rotations. The only one I have played really is my Surv hunter (who is also essentially pretty simple), and an Outlaw Rogue alt I've been goofing around on, which is definitely more than three buttons depending on certain conditionals (RtB driven mainly).

Our guild doesn't have a survival hunter atm but our outlaw rogue only used 3 abilities that would fit your criteria. Here is his parse: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=2

[Taeldorian]

TBH, I haven't played very many of my alts yet, so I don't know a lot of the new class/spec rotations. The only one I have played really is my Surv hunter (who is also essentially pretty simple), and an Outlaw Rogue alt I've been goofing around on, which is definitely more than three buttons depending on certain conditionals (RtB driven mainly).

Point being, it just seems like they really simplified the spec. I used to have a ton of WeakAuras set up to help track and maximize damage / ability usage, and as I was setting up new auras I just kept deleting and deleting because there just isn't as much to keep track of and do anymore. Again, preliminary understanding, and for single target, without artifact maxxed, etc, so who knows in the future.

What weak auras did you have in the past? Our rotations in the past have been really simple. This iteration has the most stuff we have to manage, so Im not sure what your talking about with weak auras. I have more than I have ever had in the past.

Lets go over them.

1.Track Frostbrand
2.Track Flametongue
3.Track Crash lightning
4.Track Spirit wolves
5.Track Boulderfist
6.Track Maelstrom
With the artifact- 7.Track Doom winds

Thats plenty of things to track, and in pvp I have even more like Windsong and Earthen Spike.

As for the rotation, its really not as simple as your making it out to be.

Use Crash lightning above 80-90 maelstrom, use lava lash when 90-115 maelstrom. You have to be able to keep track of and manage your maelstrom so you have enough when stormbringer procs, but you also dont want to cap it. While doing that, you have to maintain frostbrand and flametongue as well as using CL and lava lash at the right moments with your maelstrom. If you use too much maelstrom, you may not have enough if stormbringer procs which is your main source of damage, so you will be losing damage, if you dont use CL or LL you will cap your maelstrom which wastes resources which also results in dps loss.

Its not nearly as simple as surv hunter, at all. So, not really sure where youre coming from here.

[Tolian]

Previously I had auras to:

Track Stormstrike (on CD, 1 charge, 2 charges)
Track Lava Lash (on CD, 1 charge, 2 charges)
Track Unleash Elements (on CD, available, duration)
Track Frost Shock (on CD, available)
Track Flame Shock (duration-above pandemic, duration-below pandemic, missing)
Track Searing Totem (duration, missing)
Track Magma Totem (duration)
Track Spirit Wolves (on CD, available)
Track Fire Elemental Totem (on CD, available)
Track Ascendance (on CD, available)
Track Fire Nova (on CD, 1 charge, 2 charges)
Track Liquid Magma (on CD, available)
Track Maelstrom Weapon stacks (1/2/3/4/5 charges)

Not counting general CD auras for Astral Shift, Stoneform, Heroism, etc, which I still have. When I updated my auras to 7.0 (still a work in progress, but functional at this point) I deleted a lot of those because the abilities were removed or changed. Of the things I used to track, now I only track Stormstrike, LL, and spirit wolves. I’ve added a couple new auras, but there isn’t nearly as much to keep track of anymore. At least that’s how it feels to me, so far. YMMV.

[Unholyground]

If you choose the Boulderfist, Hailstorm, Crashing Storm and Tempest talents you likely will hardly ever touch lava lash, it is actually a DPS loss, and from what I can tell having Flametongue and Frostbrand + Hailstorm does the most damage. Crash Lightning is also better to use off CD than Lava Lash in that scenario. Hopefully they either buff Lava Lash or the Hot Hand Talent a bit. Though I guess a lot of cool things do make LL better when we get Doomhammer so it may all be moot.

[Deleted]

If you choose the Boulderfist, Hailstorm, Crashing Storm and Tempest talents you likely will hardly ever touch lava lash

Currently at 35% haste and this seems to be true. I use lava lash only when my wolves are up. Anytime else and i would waste too much maelstrom.

[Unholyground]

Currently at 35% haste and this seems to be true. I use lava lash only when my wolves are up. Anytime else and i would waste too much maelstrom.

I am glad they did it though, it is fun to have options, the only bad thing is there are no real option in the first tier of talents better than Boulderfist.

[Razaron]

Unless you've got really high haste, I'd recommend taking ancestral over hailstorm. I do think Hailstorm has potential to be our best talent end game 110 with high mastery and haste.

[Deleted]

Its quite a bit faster with more haste from what I have tested. I could be wrong though, I am not an expert.

It obviously is and it's easy enough to see when under BL/Hero of course.

- - - Updated - - -

If you choose the Boulderfist, Hailstorm, Crashing Storm and Tempest talents you likely will hardly ever touch lava lash, it is actually a DPS loss, and from what I can tell having Flametongue and Frostbrand + Hailstorm does the most damage. Crash Lightning is also better to use off CD than Lava Lash in that scenario. Hopefully they either buff Lava Lash or the Hot Hand Talent a bit. Though I guess a lot of cool things do make LL better when we get Doomhammer so it may all be moot.

During BL/Hero you will use LL or you'll cap on Maelstrom. Outside of that however there won't be many opportunities to use it if you use CL as your Maelstrom dump above 80MP, to be honest I use it maybe a handful of times per fight. It does feel a bit strange.

[jimmyolsen]

From my understanding, for ST, when Stormstrike is on Cooldown and Boulderfist is not charge-capped you are supposed to cast Lava Lash if you are above 90 Maelstorm. If you are below 90, but above 80, you are supposed to cast Crash Lightning.

That is just my understand though, I could be misunderstanding.

I believe Crash lightning at 90+ is still better than Lava Lash at 90+. That's why Crash Lightning at 80+ is ahead of Lava Lash in the priority list.

[Misaligned]

If an AoE ability is better dps in a single target situation than a single target ability I suspect this is an issue with numbers tuning and would expect it to be corrected at some point. Otherwise it would be inconsistent with what Blizzard has done with talent choices and game play across the board this expansion.