Retribution is SO BAD AND DULL

[Morally Grey Storm]

We're not getting WoD ret

which is a pity.
WoD Ret was solid, self-sufficient and engaging.
What we are getting in FaiLegion is a cheap carbon copy rip-off of a core Armswar mechanic tucked ontop of a cheap carbon copy rip-off of a core rouge mechanic, with all the downsides of both but without all the upsides.

This is a new ret and this mean you have to adapt your gameplay.

No shit Sherlock.

We have roughly the same amount of tools.

No. Not even close.
Where's your off-healing? Where's your HoSac, HoPurity,HoSpellwarding,HoSalv? Where's your Magic Cleanse? Emancipate? Instant cast heals at all?

However, they require you to adapt to the new gameplay, which is probably the part where you fail to do so.

bitch please.
I adapted to tBC(when I started to play WoW)
I adapted to the clusterfeth that was Cata.
FaiLegion Ret is in no way harder or more complicated. It is simply worse.

This sounds like someone who won't like ret no matter what happens. I'm sorry for you.

Assumptions are great.
Let's assume more!
That will do good to discussion at hand!

[Kalisandra]

Things Ret Brings to the table as a DPS:

Instant Full Heal
Dispels
DPS Buff
Mana Regen Buff
Damage Absorb Buff
Immunity to Physical damage Blessing
Damage Reduction Blessing
Immunity to movement impairing effects Blessing
Spammable Heal

That's on top of high burst DPS with a self immunity bubble.

That list can be added to with CC as well.

There no shortage of CC in a raid unless you go out of your way to bring specs without it. As for stuns, many specs bring better stuns these days.

The DPS buff comes at a cost to our personal DPS, and so is of little benefit to the raid overall. What's more, it excludes the Mana Regen/Healing buff - which is so small that it grants a healer one extra Holy Light/Healing Wave equivalent per 2 to 2-1/2 minutes, and the damage shield (slightly more useful - about equal to one basic heal per 30-60s). The 'Damage Absorb Buff' is presumably Shield of Vengeance, and it's just our equivalent to Astral Shift or Enraged Regeneration.

That 'spammable heal' is of no real value in group content. It's small, it requires hard-casting (i.e. total loss of our DPS, can't be used whilst dodging fire), and we can only throw five before running out of mana. Enhancement Shamans can do this much better if you want off-healing from a melee. They can also move faster, do amazing damage, and bring herolust.

All else being equal, I'd only be considering a Ret over some other melee spec if there was no other Paladin in the raid already. If there is, odds are that the Ret's BoP and LoH are simply going to run into Forbearance anyway, or cause it just when the Holy or the Prot were about to use theirs - Prot's LoH is much bigger than Ret's, and most Rets are not going to be doing their best DPS and paying the attention to raid and tank health that the healers and tanks are.

If they gave Ret BoSac back, I'd be a whole lot happier about claiming Rets bring raid utility.

[Puzzony]

Comparing Exec sentence heal with GBOW's? EleGiggle... Mate you're delusional. GBOW is literally useless..

[Deleted]

There no shortage of CC in a raid unless you go out of your way to bring specs without it. As for stuns, many specs bring better stuns these days.

The DPS buff comes at a cost to our personal DPS, and so is of little benefit to the raid overall. What's more, it excludes the Mana Regen/Healing buff - which is so small that it grants a healer one extra Holy Light/Healing Wave equivalent per 2 to 2-1/2 minutes, and the damage shield (slightly more useful - about equal to one basic heal per 30-60s). The 'Damage Absorb Buff' is presumably Shield of Vengeance, and it's just our equivalent to Astral Shift or Enraged Regeneration.

That 'spammable heal' is of no real value in group content. It's small, it requires hard-casting (i.e. total loss of our DPS, can't be used whilst dodging fire), and we can only throw five before running out of mana. Enhancement Shamans can do this much better if you want off-healing from a melee. They can also move faster, do amazing damage, and bring herolust.

All else being equal, I'd only be considering a Ret over some other melee spec if there was no other Paladin in the raid already. If there is, odds are that the Ret's BoP and LoH are simply going to run into Forbearance anyway, or cause it just when the Holy or the Prot were about to use theirs - Prot's LoH is much bigger than Ret's, and most Rets are not going to be doing their best DPS and paying the attention to raid and tank health that the healers and tanks are.

If they gave Ret BoSac back, I'd be a whole lot happier about claiming Rets bring raid utility.

But I mean you're forgetting we get 20 % dmg increase and 30 % dmg reduce when you're wiping, pretty attractive, no?

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Comparing Exec sentence heal with GBOW's? ... Mate you're delusional. GBOW is literally useless..

Well put. Several other just as outrageous claims in that post

[Zandalarian Paladin]

This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Better? In 1 min, which was what execution sentence's cooldown was before, it will heal a measly 4% of our health... 4, fucking, percent... for a paladin in 747 ilvl gear, that's a whole 19,000 health out of 480k.

Execution sentence, from a paladin in 747, before the change, healed for ~119,000 (about 25% HP) in that same minute, except it happened almost all at once, very quickly, and could be used to save the fuck out of someone's life, this was about 80% more healing than damage delt from the same paladin (~66k).

In legion with Execution sentence having a 20s CD, but costing Holy Power, it now actually does more damage than it used to from that same paladin (~79.5k), and if we assume that the "80% more healing than damage" from before would carry over , it's healing for 143k (~29%HP), every 20 seconds, 90% of our health pool over a minute, when wisdom heals 4%... Even before that additional 80% it's hilariously stronger than wisdom.


Please stop talking, you have no idea what you are speaking of, at all, Blessing of Wisdom is entirely useless... Next time do the math before you make an outrageously false claim like that.

Beside being in a stance of aggression, your post is mostly on point. I misread the tooltip and thought it was every 3 seconds - so yes, GBoW isn't viable.

Seriously people, you need to learn how to be diplomatic on the internet.

[Kalisandra]

But I mean you're forgetting we get 20 % dmg increase and 30 % dmg reduce when you're wiping, pretty attractive, no?

Clearly all raids should bring a Resto Shaman with the brez totem, a Shadow Priest talented to blow up, and a pile of Rets to do the REAL DAMAGE.

[Deleted]

Clearly all raids should bring a Resto Shaman with the brez totem, a Shadow Priest talented to blow up, and a pile of Rets to do the REAL DAMAGE.

Probably would've worked with the former version, 50% more dmg for 10 seconds. It would definitely be used for some dps race bosses in the fight for world firsts and to cheese bosses by outdpsing mechanics :d I dislike the whole "get buff when ally dies" thing. Seems counter-intuitive. It's not gonna stop a wipe from happening, the boss will just turn and smack you in the face and you're also dead. Yeah it can lead to very very clutch kills I think, but this mechanic just musn't be part of the consideration of how strong we rets are.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Clearly all raids should bring a Resto Shaman with the brez totem, a Shadow Priest talented to blow up, and a pile of Rets to do the REAL DAMAGE.

Sounds like a plan

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Seriously people, you need to learn how to be diplomatic on the internet.

says the undiplomatic one.
I delight in the irony.

[Schattenlied]

Seriously people, you need to learn how to be diplomatic on the internet.

Of course I'm in a stance of aggression, the class that has been my main since Vanilla is being pushed back to TBC era levels of "barely useful" and "questionably worth a raid slot", and people are telling us it's "fine", on top of our beta feedback thread being over 113 pages without a single response from the devs, or any acknowledgement about our many concerns... so yeah, at this point I'm more than a little pissed off.

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Clearly all raids should bring a Resto Shaman with the brez totem, a Shadow Priest talented to blow up, and a pile of Rets to do the REAL DAMAGE.

Sadly, even if they did try to game it like that, we would still end up doing less DPS than most other classes... We would do less DPS than several classes if we had that buff up 100% of the time.

[Snegovik]

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pve-stats/classes

Ret is second most represented class for mythic raiding

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp-stats/classes

Ret is upper middle of the pack when it comes to arena representation

"Nobody wants Ret in PvE or PvP"

And CLEARLY the calling card of someone that will run to Blizzard proclaiming that Ret is perfect is someone that describes their talent tree as a "bag of shit".

Lol

My dear PVE friend, its clearly you are confused about Ret & Rated PvP, so please take a look at the meaningful graph below : Ret @ arena 2.5k cr+ not even in top 15 specs

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...500&ladder=3v3

it amounts aprox 1.5% of TOTAL representation. Furthermore in RBGs above 2.2k its not there either and amount to total of aprox 0.2% of Total representation.

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...200&ladder=RBG

Please tell me Ret is fine in Rated PvP or even better provide ur armory so you can back up your highly convincing argument with some recent PvP titles?

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Do you wnt to make yourself look stupid?
Because that's how you make yourself look stupid.

Do you find it feasible that according to your link, Ret is below FDKs, Armswarrs(both of whic hare in top5), Fecal Durids and Enchancement Shamens?

No? Nothing?
Doesn't it ring you a bell that something is off?



Fun fact: if I start browsing Rated BG rankings, Ret is even below 2 out of 3 Rouge specs aswell, at 1800 rating, that is.
At 2200, all 3 Rouge specs pull ahead

Lol Storm i am not sure how u are still hold to your sanity after trying to pull all these highly confused people towards the light of reality. I posted some actual pvp links above =) now awaiting.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Of course I'm in a stance of aggression, the class that has been my main since Vanilla is being pushed back to TBC era levels of "barely useful" and people are telling us it's "fine", on top of our beta feedback thread being over 133 pages without a single response from the devs, or any acknowledgement about our many concerns... so yeah, at this point I'm more than a little pissed off.

I certainly won't say that you're wrong to be pissed off. However, the stance of "us against the world" is not going to help ret paladin to be heard.

Blizzard has a history of simply ignoring feedback that comes with the mass, simply because the feedback is just not valuable. If what they see on their side - which is obviously what's happening right now - make sense, then they won't feel the need to change it. It's sad that the good, valuable feedback will get lost in the hundreds of pages of flaming and mindless shaming.

[Snegovik]

The links I posted prove, empirically, that Ret is completely 100% viable and well represented in the highest levels of WoW endgame.

If you're good, you'll succeed at any kind of gameplay offered by World of Warcraft.

Dear Sir, stop talking none-sense you clearly never amounted to any high rating this xpac if you believe that ret is "WELL represented in the highest levels" of Rated PvP

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I certainly won't say that you're wrong to be pissed off. However, the stance of "us against the world" is not going to help ret paladin to be heard.

Blizzard has a history of simply ignoring feedback that comes with the mass, simply because the feedback is just not valuable. If what they see on their side - which is obviously what's happening right now - make sense, then they won't feel the need to change it. It's sad that the good, valuable feedback will get lost in the hundreds of pages of flaming and mindless shaming.

Yeah, except the calm and reasoned feedback has been ignored. The same thing happened with flying, for several months, before they finally said "No" and then quickly backpedaled after seeing how upset people were about it.

[Teleros]

Dear Sir, stop talking none-sense you clearly never amounted to any high rating this xpac if you believe that ret is "WELL represented in the highest levels" of Rated PvP

It... depends.

1. Define "highest levels". 1500+ rating? 1800+? 2500+?
2. Which stats site are you using? Hashcrypt's figures and the Arenamate ones don't match up very well.
3. Assuming all specs are equally good/popular at any given level, Ret should have 3.4% representation.
4. Define "WoW endgame". Does heroic raiding count? Pet PvP battles? 2v2 arenas?
5. Don't forget the confusion offered by alts & off-specs.
6. Similarly, don't forget the difference between progress & farm raids.

I'm sure I can torture the statistics enough to show Ret as being over-represented in just about everything TBH.

[Snegovik]

oh my.

How many Ret glads was there this season?

A very good question sir, the answer is aprox 1% or less
http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...800&ladder=3v3

too bad people arguing above that Rets are fine @ high rated pvp most likely will not comprehend this data, and they will post more links for CLASS representation when we are talking about SPEC representation

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It... depends.

1. Define "highest levels". 1500+ rating? 1800+? 2500+?
2. Which stats site are you using? Hashcrypt's figures and the Arenamate ones don't match up very well.
3. Assuming all specs are equally good/popular at any given level, Ret should have 3.4% representation.
4. Define "WoW endgame". Does heroic raiding count? Pet PvP battles? 2v2 arenas?
5. Don't forget the confusion offered by alts & off-specs.
6. Similarly, don't forget the difference between progress & farm raids.

I'm sure I can torture the statistics enough to show Ret as being over-represented in just about everything TBH.

Glad-R1, anything below is not even "high" and highest is R1 for me personally.

He was talking about PVP with his "pro" pve links

[Morally Grey Storm]

Lol Storm i am not sure how u are still hold to your sanity after trying to pull all these highly confused people towards the light of reality. I posted some actual pvp links above =) now awaiting.

Stoicism. Unyelding conviction. With a pinch of grim resolve.


There's a nifty little trick I learned long time ago which helps to hold my sanity in check: while I am trying to talk some sense into ignoramuses, in my mind I am actively sodomizing them with a broken shovel shaft or sexually harassing their craniums through their posteriors

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Yeah, except the calm and reasoned feedback has been ignored. The same thing happened with flying, for several months, before they finally said "No" and then quickly backpedaled after seeing how upset people were about it.

That's the thing with Blizzard. You have to understand how they work.

They almost never cave to pressure - only instance where they did was with real ID and somewhat caved with Flying (although I think the compromise is for the best).

If you want your feedback to reach Blizzard, you have to have a group of people teaming together to provide in-depth feedback about what works and what doesn't. Sadly, that's not what's happening right now - even good pieces of feedback do not go in depth.

[snackfeat]

I like new ret more than the WoD ret, as long as I'm not using Execution Sentence. The rotation just feels a lot more interactive now, but Execution Sentence just completely ruins the flow and I'm REALLY hoping that Final Verdict will at least be on par with it so I will never have to deal with that bullshit.

The talent tree is a complete joke, but regardless I still find the gameplay more interesting than the old one.

And I'm talking purely from a PvE perspective here. I can definitely see this version of ret with zero mobility being absolute shit in PvP.

[Snegovik]

Stoicism. Unyelding conviction. With a pinch of grim resolve.


There's a nifty little trick I learned long time ago which helps to hold my sanity in check: while I am trying to talk some sense into ignoramuses, in my mind I am actively sodomizing them with a broken shovel shaft or sexually harassing their craniums through their posteriors

LMAO Storm as i read ur comment i started laughing as a maniac, every1 in my office looked at me I went crazy and asked if i was ok.

Back to topic: yest i dueled a feral for 15 min or so, i would get him to 2%-10% hp multiple times, and he would run away and restealth + heal (i think out of combat cd went down, no?) eventually i got bored (since he could never bring me below 50% hp) and i just mounted up, flew up and afked since that pus didn't know how to fight without re-stealthing 20 times. But ya thats Blizzard balance for you: Ret has 0 mobility, can not stick to a target, no range abilities, no execute...balanced

[Schattenlied]

That's the thing with Blizzard. You have to understand how they work.

They almost never cave to pressure - only instance where they did was with real ID and somewhat caved with Flying (although I think the compromise is for the best).

If you want your feedback to reach Blizzard, you have to have a group of people teaming together to provide in-depth feedback about what works and what doesn't. Sadly, that's not what's happening right now - even good pieces of feedback do not go in depth.

We did exactly that, for months during alpha and beta, it was all ignored completely.