Legion: Horde race for Fury

[Deleted]

So im gonna assume noeone came to a conclusion? from what i noticed alot of people are going troll

[Slayar]

Orc because tusk-shoulders

[Murlocbait]

So im gonna assume noeone came to a conclusion? from what i noticed alot of people are going troll

All else being equal (which it never is) there's less than a 2% difference between the "best" and "worst" race. So the conclusion is play whatever the hell you want.

[Tatsujin]

If I could be a Tauren as Alliance, I would love to do that. They're so bad ass (old animations used to be). Orcs and Humans are the de-facto for Warriors. Male night-elves stances are super bad ass and their actions. They remind me of Sephiroth when he is holding Masamune. Humans male version look amazing, the female version are alright ... They really need to do a serious update on human textures, they don't look as good as modern races.

What else is there ... Undead are cool. I used to be a female Night Elf for a very long time, just because they were freaking sexy. The Drans are cool looking, especially the females (damn sexy) and their attacks are reasonable. Panderian females are so awesome for Warriors.

I dislike Blood Elves ... they just ... look gay :/ Both male and female. They don't look dominating enough.

Anyways, these are my opinions so keep that in mind.

[Archimtiros]

So im gonna assume noeone came to a conclusion? from what i noticed alot of people are going troll

It literally does not matter. Pick what you like.

[Xanthan]

It literally does not matter. Pick what you like.

For some people, "what you like" equals "what is best." Wipes undeniably happen all the time with the boss surviving by the threshold of racial differences. Hell, I've seen wipes close enough that a single GCD from any 1 player in the raid would've been enough to change the outcome. Generally that means it's going to die relatively soon, but it could've already been dead instead. The difference may be as small as a few tenths of a percent, but it does exist and literally does impact getting a kill or not at least some of the time. I don't know why it became so popular to dismiss the question of racials out of hand, as far as min/maxing goes, when it has just as much of an impact as a few wrong gems(something people will point out and mock in a heartbeat).

The SimC profiles aren't very optimized around race(or very optimized in general right now), but for reference I just ran a sim for each horde race with the default T18M Fury profiles(3.5min - 8min fight length). I only ran 25k iterations for each, so error is around +/- 30 dps. The results are:

Troll: 80844
Goblin: 80510
Tauren: 80506
Undead: 80269
Blood Elf: 80141
Pandaren: 80138
Orc: 79985

The difference between the best and the worst is 1.07%. That may not be the same at 110 in Legion, but goes to show that racials can and do make a non-negligible difference in performance. I don't think most people would be willing to pay $25 and play a race they like less for that 1% difference, but it's there nonetheless.

[Melkandor]

AP proc = better for burst and 1% haste is literally nothing. Fury doesn't depend on haste at all. 1% crit, well I'm not sure on the math but I'm pretty sure the AP procs beats 1% crit, but again I haven't done the math.

Realistically, unless you're pushing bleeding edge content I'm not sure that a flat 1% of anything is going to matter all that much. So go for what looks coolest, and what looks best in your favorite xmogs I guess? I dunno. But racials are pretty irrelevent even to hardcore raiders.

Please don't give advice if you don't know what you're talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

For some people, "what you like" equals "what is best." Wipes undeniably happen all the time with the boss surviving by the threshold of racial differences. Hell, I've seen wipes close enough that a single GCD from any 1 player in the raid would've been enough to change the outcome. Generally that means it's going to die relatively soon, but it could've already been dead instead. The difference may be as small as a few tenths of a percent, but it does exist and literally does impact getting a kill or not at least some of the time. I don't know why it became so popular to dismiss the question of racials out of hand, as far as min/maxing goes, when it has just as much of an impact as a few wrong gems(something people will point out and mock in a heartbeat).

The SimC profiles aren't very optimized around race(or very optimized in general right now), but for reference I just ran a sim for each horde race with the default T18M Fury profiles(3.5min - 8min fight length). I only ran 25k iterations for each, so error is around +/- 30 dps. The results are:

Troll: 80844
Goblin: 80510
Tauren: 80506
Undead: 80269
Blood Elf: 80141
Pandaren: 80138
Orc: 79985

The difference between the best and the worst is 1.07%. That may not be the same at 110 in Legion, but goes to show that racials can and do make a non-negligible difference in performance. I don't think most people would be willing to pay $25 and play a race they like less for that 1% difference, but it's there nonetheless.

1.07% is negligible

[Queen of Hamsters]

Go male Tauren or go home. :3
Nothing's as imposing as they are.

[Murlocbait]

For some people, "what you like" equals "what is best." Wipes undeniably happen all the time with the boss surviving by the threshold of racial differences. Hell, I've seen wipes close enough that a single GCD from any 1 player in the raid would've been enough to change the outcome. Generally that means it's going to die relatively soon, but it could've already been dead instead. The difference may be as small as a few tenths of a percent, but it does exist and literally does impact getting a kill or not at least some of the time.

We've all had wipes that are that close, but saying it would've been different if one warrior had been a different race is just insane. There are too many moving parts, and the reason for the wipe is ultimately more important than 1% damage done. You can't just look at it in a vacuum like that. The reason people like me get sick of this question is that someone with authority will roll their eyes, give the quantitative answer about what is technically best from a numerical stand point, and 3 weeks later there will be a hundred people screaming that if you don't play that race you're an idiot. It has happened before and will happen again - no need to fuel that kind of thinking. Reality is that it 100% DOES NOT MATTER. The moving parts of executing a rotation while handling raid mechanics will nullify any possible difference race makes - the chaos of real world gameplay just obliterates the idea of impactful numerical racial bonuses at this point in WoW's lifetime.

[Archimtiros]

For some people, "what you like" equals "what is best." Wipes undeniably happen all the time with the boss surviving by the threshold of racial differences. Hell, I've seen wipes close enough that a single GCD from any 1 player in the raid would've been enough to change the outcome. Generally that means it's going to die relatively soon, but it could've already been dead instead. The difference may be as small as a few tenths of a percent, but it does exist and literally does impact getting a kill or not at least some of the time. I don't know why it became so popular to dismiss the question of racials out of hand, as far as min/maxing goes, when it has just as much of an impact as a few wrong gems(something people will point out and mock in a heartbeat).

The SimC profiles aren't very optimized around race(or very optimized in general right now), but for reference I just ran a sim for each horde race with the default T18M Fury profiles(3.5min - 8min fight length). I only ran 25k iterations for each, so error is around +/- 30 dps. The results are:

Troll: 80844
Goblin: 80510
Tauren: 80506
Undead: 80269
Blood Elf: 80141
Pandaren: 80138
Orc: 79985

The difference between the best and the worst is 1.07%. That may not be the same at 110 in Legion, but goes to show that racials can and do make a non-negligible difference in performance. I don't think most people would be willing to pay $25 and play a race they like less for that 1% difference, but it's there nonetheless.

1% difference in damage does not amount to 1% of the bosses health. If you think 1% difference is non-negligable you're kidding yourself, you'll see a bigger variance in whether or not you get a couple lucky crits.

When getting those 1% wipes, you've got bigger problems than whether or not you were the right race.

[Deleted]

That 1.07% variation between orcs and trolls result in a 258k damage difference for a 5 minutes fight. And that makes a difference. You can say that we've got bigger problems than whether or not we were the right race, that's true, but that does not nullify the fact that this is still a difference.

[Archimtiros]

That 1.07% variation between orcs and trolls result in a 258k damage difference for a 5 minutes fight. And that makes a difference. You can say that we've got bigger problems than whether or not we were the right race, that's true, but that does not nullify the fact that this is still a difference.

258k damage =! 258k DPS. Keep in mind EN bosses (eg: Ursoc) have something like 600M health (non-mythic). For reference, that's 0.043% of his health. Even if every single DPS in the raid, say 15 players, changed races with the same average gain, that'd be 3,870,000 damage, or 0.645% this example bosses health. That's the definition of trivial.

Now, do guilds have sub 1% wipes? Absolutely. Is it because of damage issues? Rarely; usually it's due to failure of mechanics. Damage can handicap that, but it's very rarely the reason for failure.

[Deleted]

Yeah I know that 258k damage is not 258k DPS, and that damage difference is not about legion but in WoD (in legion that number will be higher ofc). And this is only accounting for 1 person, if most of the raid members have the wrong race, then you can be some millions damage behind, which in wod, can make a difference. Now yes a good guild can defeat any boss with any race, but that race difference can be useful for average guilds, or even better guild against DPS check bosses like Archimonde mythic

[Archimtiros]

Yeah I know that 258k damage is not 258k DPS, and that damage difference is not about legion but in WoD (in legion that number will be higher ofc). And this is only accounting for 1 person, if most of the raid members have the wrong race, then you can be some millions damage behind, which in wod, can make a difference. Now yes a good guild can defeat any boss with any race, but that race difference can be useful for average guilds, or even better guild against DPS check bosses like Archimonde mythic

Let's put it into WoD terms then. M Archimonde has 232M health, rather than the 600M used before. 258k is then 0.111% of that number, and along with my previous example, multiplying that by 15 players (disregarding the fact that not every DPS would switch or see the same gain, but only as a simple example) would give us 3,780k or 1.668%.

More of a difference for sure, but one I am still going to file under trivial. As before, 1% wipes very rarely occur due to a lack of DPS, but due to a failure of mechanics. DPS handicaps this, which is why it's pursued by top guilds in an effort to outpace mechanics and kill bosses earlier, but even they rarely feel the need to force change races, because they understand how trivial it is, not to mention the fact that they'd end up race changing constantly as they meet new gear thresholds and the top race inevitably changes.

You are, of course, still free to do this if you still feel the need.

[jakeyy]

I play an Orc myself, but I've always like the look of Troll and Undead warriors. I hardly see these 2 race/class combo's on my server

[Deleted]

I'm debating on going either female orc or stay as male tauren. Not sure tho
Undead seems quite interesting too.

[Deleted]

I love my goblin. No matter what's the dps - the racials don't matter that much. It's what You, as a player, prefer.
I have been playing a tauren for few years and I seriously had enough of that big cow.
At least the goblin is funny.

[Xanthan]

Let's put it into WoD terms then. M Archimonde has 232M health, rather than the 600M used before. 258k is then 0.111% of that number, and along with my previous example, multiplying that by 15 players (disregarding the fact that not every DPS would switch or see the same gain, but only as a simple example) would give us 3,780k or 1.668%.

More of a difference for sure, but one I am still going to file under trivial. As before, 1% wipes very rarely occur due to a lack of DPS, but due to a failure of mechanics. DPS handicaps this, which is why it's pursued by top guilds in an effort to outpace mechanics and kill bosses earlier, but even they rarely feel the need to force change races, because they understand how trivial it is, not to mention the fact that they'd end up race changing constantly as they meet new gear thresholds and the top race inevitably changes.

You are, of course, still free to do this if you still feel the need.

Speaking literally, the cause of every wipe is a lack of DPS. If you did enough extra DPS, it'd be dead. 1% wipes don't always translate to needing 1% more DPS to kill them though. E.g. if a boss had a 100-30% phase that was trivial and a 30-0% phase that was hard, it would've needed ~3.45% more DPS to die if you wiped at 1%. Of course it's rare that your raw DPS potential is truly the only thing preventing you from killing a boss. You can always handle mechanics better, play your class better, pick a better strategy, etc. to help kill a boss instead. It does contribute though. Just because you can do other things better doesn't mean more damage doesn't help. More damage lessens the need to do all the other things. You can play worse, and the boss still ends up dead.

And no one changes race constantly as they gear up, mostly because the best race rarely changes with gear, but also because the difference between the top 3 races is massively smaller than the difference between the best and the worst. Top guilds in the world absolutely race change for racials though. Go ahead and compare the number of trolls on top raiding guilds to the number of undead. I think 50:1 is a reasonable estimate, and I don't think 50x more players up and decided they just like the cool looks of trolls more than undead. If we went back to classic, you'd see the reverse ratio, when undead had amazing racials and trolls regenerated 1 hp/5s.

[Archimtiros]

Speaking literally, the cause of every wipe is a lack of DPS. If you did enough extra DPS, it'd be dead.

Uh, no not really. You can absolutely fail due to mechanics regardless of DPS. Example: Mythic Archimonde - no amount of realistic DPS will allow you to skip Wrought Chaos, and you will absolutely get wrecked by it and wipe if you fail to at least partially counter the mechanic.

And no one changes race constantly as they gear up, mostly because the best race rarely changes with gear, but also because the difference between the top 3 races is massively smaller than the difference between the best and the worst.

So now you're arguing that you don't have to change to the top, just the top three? Or only if you're the worst, and in that case you might as well change to the very top since you're changing anyway? The logical basis of your argument is starting to fall apart.

The top race also changes with gear pretty often actually, and historically has for Warriors during every expansion.

Top guilds in the world absolutely race change for racials though.

They do, but even then much more rarely than you might think. ToT is a great example, a couple guilds felt the need to race change to Troll for beast slaying, but the majority did not, eve at the top most levels. I can point out right now a number of players in top 5 guilds which are not the top race, because they understand how trivial it is.

[Xanthan]

Uh, no not really. You can absolutely fail due to mechanics regardless of DPS. Example: Mythic Archimonde - no amount of realistic DPS will allow you to skip Wrought Chaos, and you will absolutely get wrecked by it and wipe if you fail to at least partially counter the mechanic.


So now you're arguing that you don't have to change to the top, just the top three? Or only if you're the worst, and in that case you might as well change to the very top since you're changing anyway? The logical basis of your argument is starting to fall apart.

The top race also changes with gear pretty often actually, and historically has for Warriors during every expansion.



They do, but even then much more rarely than you might think. ToT is a great example, a couple guilds felt the need to race change to Troll for beast slaying, but the majority did not, eve at the top most levels. I can point out right now a number of players in top 5 guilds which are not the top race, because they understand how trivial it is.

I never said you *had* to change for anything. I just said the difference exists, and saying it's negligible, trivial, doesn't make a difference, can't possibly matter, is well understood by everyone to be pointless, etc. is just bullshit. People typically don't race change for 50 dps, but if you're undead staring at a ~1.5% gap between you and and the best race, it suddenly doesn't seem like a bad idea(as every undead player that raids in a high end raiding guild has already done years ago because 1.5% isn't negligible and is the difference between wipes and kills all the damn time). I'm not advocating it. I don't give a shit what anyone else does with their race choice. I just think telling people it makes no difference at all is just obviously demonstrably wrong.

Personally, I've only race changed once, from Tauren to Orc, back when Orc had axe spec still, and tauren had nothing but war stomp and some HP. I haven't felt the need to change again since, because I haven't felt that the gap was so large it was worth paying some money to fix.