Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[kary]

No I liked old wow because group play was awesome. If I want to play solo I play solo RPG (like dark souls or skyrim).

Also, there were other ways to improve the solo experience for some classes (for which solo play was tedious) than ruining the game design of the whole game (subs have been decreasing from WOTLK, the expansion which came after the shift in game design I talked about, for a reason).

So making it that you don't need 5 people to do quests is ruining the game? Gotcha.

[Deleted]

So making it that you don't need 5 people to do quests is ruining the game? Gotcha.

I don't think you do understand my point. What ruined the game (for people who were playing wow because it was a multiplayer experience) is that group play isn't as interesting as it used to be. I urge you to read again my post as you obviously didn't.

Back in the day, playing as a group of 5 was different than playing solo. What you did in a group was different from what you were doing solo. What you did in a raid was different from what you were doing solo or in a group.

Nowadays, unless you re a healer, what you do solo, in a group of 5 or in a raid is the same (on a gameplay standpoint).

[Jeniwyn]

So making it that you don't need 5 people to do quests is ruining the game? Gotcha.

Actually. Sort of, yes.

When everything is easily done solo that generally becomes the most efficient way of doing things and you lose the multiplayer aspect of the game because people will, in general, do things in the efficient way.

Now that is far from the only or even the most important reason that WoW was a better game 10 years ago than today but it is one of them. Mainly because WoW is a fairly bad single player game and a very good multiplayer game and for some reason Blizzard have pushed players towards their weak point.

[voidillusion]

Actually. Sort of, yes.

When everything is easily done solo that generally becomes the most efficient way of doing things and you lose the multiplayer aspect of the game because people will, in general, do things in the efficient way.

Now that is far from the only or even the most important reason that WoW was a better game 10 years ago than today but it is one of them. Mainly because WoW is a fairly bad single player game and a very good multiplayer game and for some reason Blizzard have pushed players towards their weak point.

That's irrelevant, the only interaction modern day wow player wants is with his guild and only because he needs them to raid. Many would be just fine replacing them with bots.

It is what it is.

[Mahourai]

Actually. Sort of, yes.

When everything is easily done solo that generally becomes the most efficient way of doing things and you lose the multiplayer aspect of the game because people will, in general, do things in the efficient way.

Modern WoW encourages grouping more than Vanilla ever did.

Modern WoW's dungeon finder and increased XP gains and rewards in dungeons make grouping for them while leveling worthwhile. In Vanilla, doing dungeons was extremely inefficient and often rewarded nothing more than half the comparable XP of solo questing or grinding, as loot tables were horrible. Vanilla's group quests were insanely inefficient. First you had to find a tank, healer and some DPS who were all interested in doing, let's say, that quest in the barrow den at the top of Stonetalon Mountains. This was rare because usually quest rewards were awful, and when they were good, there was only one good one, so getting a full party to do them was an exercise in frustration. I played on Nostalrius leveling and everyone just skipped these quests, they didn't generate any great community interaction. When you did do them, the quests were slow and grindy as you fought dozens of elites who dropped nothing in order to finish a quest that rewards about double the XP in ten times the completion length of a regular solo quest.

The heavy emphasis on mandatory grouping for difficult quests in Vanilla did not incentivize grouping for quests. It incentivized ignoring these quests and doing the simplest solo quests or just grinding.

[Bapestar]

Modern WoW encourages grouping more than Vanilla ever did.

Modern WoW's dungeon finder and increased XP gains and rewards in dungeons make grouping for them while leveling worthwhile. In Vanilla, doing dungeons was extremely inefficient and often rewarded nothing more than half the comparable XP of solo questing or grinding, as loot tables were horrible. Vanilla's group quests were insanely inefficient. First you had to find a tank, healer and some DPS who were all interested in doing, let's say, that quest in the barrow den at the top of Stonetalon Mountains. This was rare because usually quest rewards were awful, and when they were good, there was only one good one, so getting a full party to do them was an exercise in frustration. I played on Nostalrius leveling and everyone just skipped these quests, they didn't generate any great community interaction. When you did do them, the quests were slow and grindy as you fought dozens of elites who dropped nothing in order to finish a quest that rewards about double the XP in ten times the completion length of a regular solo quest.

The heavy emphasis on mandatory grouping for difficult quests in Vanilla did not incentivize grouping for quests. It incentivized ignoring these quests and doing the simplest solo quests or just grinding.

BS. Many people did those quests, because quests were not always plentiful. I really wonder if you actually played on Nostalrius......

[Azgraal]

This thread is amazing.

Indeed, the amount of people who still haven't learned that life is not always how they wanted and also not frozen in the one specific time they prefer, is astounding.

[Sansnom]

Actually. Sort of, yes.

When everything is easily done solo that generally becomes the most efficient way of doing things and you lose the multiplayer aspect of the game because people will, in general, do things in the efficient way.

Everything is easily done solo because finding people to do things can be hard. You just may not have experienced it. I started during TBC and hardly met any players while levelling. Doing dungeons were not existence. Group quests were skipped.

That was the problem. When Vanilla was out. It was new. There were lots of players spread across the entire levelling range. Meeting other players were frequent. But as the game got older, players progress. More and more players reach the end level cap and less players were levelling. Group contents were skipped because most players were or close to the level cap.

Some games attempted to address this by capping players. GW2 does this and to an extend it works. It would not be possible for Blizzard to change this since it means a major change in the game mechanics. So if you have another solution to this, I loved to hear it.

Now that is far from the only or even the most important reason that WoW was a better game 10 years ago than today but it is one of them. Mainly because WoW is a fairly bad single player game and a very good multiplayer game and for some reason Blizzard have pushed players towards their weak point.

Can you elaborate on that? What was so great about the old group content that supercede todays group content?

[huehuehue]

Indeed, the amount of people who still haven't learned that life is not always how they wanted and also not frozen in the one specific time they prefer, is astounding.

as is the amount of people who don't want others to have fun

If you won't play, don't play it. Stop putting down people who just want to enjoy the game they liked on an official server.

[Mahourai]

BS. Many people did those quests, because quests were not always plentiful. I really wonder if you actually played on Nostalrius......

I got to 45 on Nost and have a 60 on another Vanilla realm. People avoid these quests, and if you ask for groups for them, people will tell you to avoid them, because they're more trouble than they're worth. It's MUCH faster to grind than it is to do the quest I chose as my example, and it's not close. Forget finding other quests to do. These quests simply go undone or eat people's entire evening away. They're not good design.

[Bapestar]

I got to 45 on Nost and have a 60 on another Vanilla realm. People avoid these quests, and if you ask for groups for them, people will tell you to avoid them, because they're more trouble than they're worth. It's MUCH faster to grind than it is to do the quest I chose as my example, and it's not close. Forget finding other quests to do. These quests simply go undone or eat people's entire evening away. They're not good design.

Maybe for a handful of quests, but many of the group quests were worth it. And if you are worried about eating your evening away, maybe log out of the game? For Vanilla the design wasn't necessarily bad. Because the game was slower.

[Triptych]

Dipping my toe back into the current/live version of the game, has triggered a rush of old memories and nostalgia.

It would be super fun to relive those experiences, warts and all. I'd create a dwarf hunter, with Mining and Engineering, and retrace my steps through Dun Morogh and Loch Modan, trusty bear at my side. I still count those first few weeks of playing WOW back in 2005, as one of the best experiences of my entire gaming career.

[Azgraal]

Stop putting down people who just want to enjoy the game they liked on an official server.

No thanks, I'm good.

[Vineri]

Indeed, the amount of people who still haven't learned that life is not always how they wanted and also not frozen in the one specific time they prefer, is astounding.

Wallets are also amazing.

It's not up to either side to say the other is boring. It's up to the company, namely Blizzard, who has yet to comment after spending tens of thousands for team Nostalrius to have a USA paid vacation while conferencing with "devs" and those professionals running Blizzard.

Will they say their current game is boring? Probably not. Will they want to tap into a retro market? Probably.

Personally the new direction is boring. Someone sees things differently than you do, apparently. A WoW fan too, imagine that =D

[Arthas242]

Vanilla wow was a bad game..... it was fun in it;s own time, but "TIME'S CHANGE" as Garrosh said....

wow has evolved into a better game in every way imo over the long haul with some bumps here and there, only thing vanilla related i would want back is OLD AV just for the days/week long battleground.

legion looks to be very good.... why would you want to play vanilla again......

[Aggrophobic]

Vanilla wow was a bad game..... it was fun in it;s own time, but "TIME'S CHANGE" as Garrosh said....

wow has evolved into a better game in every way imo over the long haul with some bumps here and there, only thing vanilla related i would want back is OLD AV just for the days/week long battleground.

legion looks to be very good.... why would you want to play vanilla again......

Most would not want to play vanilla again. Not for very long time, at least and thats why Blizzard is hesitant to start up these servers.
It's quite possible that they won't get enough money back to even make up for the initial cost of setting up servers and get the code working in todays battle.net and it's even less likely that they'd make money running these servers over a long time.

[Pann]

Wallets are also amazing.

It's not up to either side to say the other is boring. It's up to the company, namely Blizzard, who has yet to comment after spending tens of thousands for team Nostalrius to have a USA paid vacation while conferencing with "devs" and those professionals running Blizzard.

It is worth noting that the thousands Blizzard spent bringing the Nost crew to Irvine is likely to have been far less costly than it would have been to bring legal action against them. So I would not read too much into it.

[kamuimac]

oh look nostalarius crybabies are still alive and kicking

how does it feel to finaly startign to relaise you wont get legacy servers ever no matter how much you cry

- - - Updated - - -

It is worth noting that the thousands Blizzard spent bringing the Nost crew to Irvine is likely to have been far less costly than it would have been to bring legal action against them. So I would not read too much into it.

it probably didnt cost them much too - ] most companeis throw all buisnes travel costs into deduction from future income tax

[Armourboy]

Vanilla wow was a bad game..... it was fun in it;s own time, but "TIME'S CHANGE" as Garrosh said....

wow has evolved into a better game in every way imo over the long haul with some bumps here and there, only thing vanilla related i would want back is OLD AV just for the days/week long battleground.

legion looks to be very good.... why would you want to play vanilla again......

I would argue otherwise, and I've been around since Vanilla. If you want an MMO experience, Vanilla is a much better version of that. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but if you like playing MMO'S, then it does a pretty good job of that.

Today's game is much more of a solo game with a multilayer experience. It's not bad per se, it's just not really what I would call any MMO.

MMO'S for me have always been experience that will some what force you to interact and work with others. It forces you to build relationships and in many ways to depend on others. About the only part of the game left that comes remotely close to that is high end raiding. Yes you queue for 5 man's and such, but those individuals have zero bearing on your game play 15 minutes later, which is why so many people don't communicate in them.

Many of the QoL changes and systems are better than what was in Vanilla, but the back bone of a good MMO is not it's systems. It's one of the reasons they have struggled with retention rates over the last several years. The systems aren't bad, the content isn't either for the most part, but there is no compelling reason to stick around once you've blown through the easy short lived content they create. It's the reason raiders tend to stick with things longer, there is still a touch of that old soul left.


No one stays because the game has Transmog, or LFD, or any of the other systems they have in place. They stay because of the people they meet and hang out with, something which vanilla was a much better platform for.

[clevin]

I would argue otherwise, and I've been around since Vanilla. If you want an MMO experience, Vanilla is a much better version of that. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but if you like playing MMO'S, then it does a pretty good job of that.

Today's game is much more of a solo game with a multilayer experience. It's not bad per se, it's just not really what I would call any MMO.

MMO'S for me have always been experience that will some what force you to interact and work with others. It forces you to build relationships and in many ways to depend on others. About the only part of the game left that comes remotely close to that is high end raiding. Yes you queue for 5 man's and such, but those individuals have zero bearing on your game play 15 minutes later, which is why so many people don't communicate in them.

Many of the QoL changes and systems are better than what was in Vanilla, but the back bone of a good MMO is not it's systems. It's one of the reasons they have struggled with retention rates over the last several years. The systems aren't bad, the content isn't either for the most part, but there is no compelling reason to stick around once you've blown through the easy short lived content they create. It's the reason raiders tend to stick with things longer, there is still a touch of that old soul left.


No one stays because the game has Transmog, or LFD, or any of the other systems they have in place. They stay because of the people they meet and hang out with, something which vanilla was a much better platform for.

perfectly said, esp the part I bolded.