Ret PVP : is it globally worse than in WoD or the same compared to other classes ?

[istroxpro]

Actually I do, they just need to rework blessings to provide more significant bonuses.

[Wrecktangle]

Actually I do, they just need to rework blessings to provide more significant bonuses.

What do you like about them specifically?

Do you like that they are set and forget buffs?
Do you like that the bonuses they provide are marginal at best?
Do you like that in PVE you can only use GBoM?
Do you like that you cannot change them in combat?
Do you like that they're completely non-engaging to use?

Going to your suggestion, what are some examples of "meaningful" bonuses that would be effective in both PVP and PVE?

[Snegovik]

What do you like about them specifically?

Do you like that they are set and forget buffs?
Do you like that the bonuses they provide are marginal at best?
Do you like that in PVE you can only use GBoM?
Do you like that you cannot change them in combat?
Do you like that they're completely non-engaging to use?

Going to your suggestion, what are some examples of "meaningful" bonuses that would be effective in both PVP and PVE?

I think in order for them to be truly "meaningful" in PvP, they will be a bit OP, which may lead to further nerfing to the core of our class. I think Greater blessings have to very minor like a perk/flavor because it will be hard to balance them to make them good, but we should not be penalized in our dmg reduction because might gives us 5% extra dps from other dpsers... thats just silly design from my pov.

[istroxpro]

Well, I just like the idea of being supportive. Certainly blessings should be reworked or buffed, perhaps 2% of hp and mana per 5-10 sec by wisdom and 10% of health as a shield by kings. Yes, that will do. Might is okay. And yes I like that I can't change em in combat, coz it sucks to reapply buffs in combat.

[Exedore]

I think in order for them to be truly "meaningful" in PvP, they will be a bit OP

This is the problem with greater blessings and it's not just a PvP problem; in fact it's a bigger problem for PvE. If greater blessings are strong, then having many ret paladins in a raid becomes necessary. In order to stop that, ret has to either be weak in comparison to other DPS (which isn't fun) or greater blessings have to be of minimal benefit (what we have now, which also isn't fun). That's on top of passive play and inability to move them around dynamically (one of your BoM'ed teammates dies? you lose 3% dmg and can't do anything about it!).

Active support with obvious immediate effects is far more fun. That's how normal blessings are and we need more of those.

[Snegovik]

This is the problem with greater blessings and it's not just a PvP problem; in fact it's a bigger problem for PvE. If greater blessings are strong, then having many ret paladins in a raid becomes necessary. In order to stop that, ret has to either be weak in comparison to other DPS (which isn't fun) or greater blessings have to be of minimal benefit (what we have now, which also isn't fun). That's on top of passive play and inability to move them around dynamically (one of your BoM'ed teammates dies? you lose 3% dmg and can't do anything about it!).

Active support with obvious immediate effects is far more fun. That's how normal blessings are and we need more of those.

Since i dont pve at all =) thats why i always leave PvE comments aside in my posts, but ya what you wrote makes sense, too bad Blizzard does not see the flaw in the design for greater blessings

[wuzzle]

This is the problem with greater blessings and it's not just a PvP problem; in fact it's a bigger problem for PvE. If greater blessings are strong, then having many ret paladins in a raid becomes necessary. In order to stop that, ret has to either be weak in comparison to other DPS (which isn't fun) or greater blessings have to be of minimal benefit (what we have now, which also isn't fun). That's on top of passive play and inability to move them around dynamically (one of your BoM'ed teammates dies? you lose 3% dmg and can't do anything about it!).

Active support with obvious immediate effects is far more fun. That's how normal blessings are and we need more of those.

One could always create a hardcap of maximum 6 Blessings per raid or some such. With current mechanics -especially the BoM- that would cripple any additional ret's damage output significantly...

Well yes, i guess it's just bad design in general.

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What concerns me the most is that right now you're forced to be quite single minded as a ret in PvP. You have no healproccs or even WoG to provide your teams with heals, the only active utility or helpful spells -right now- are Blessing of Freedom (yay, good old name convention) and BoP. While BoP was significantly buffed due to it not stopping melee spells and attacks anymore, Ret has it only every few minutes. We have nothing to help our team . With Honor Talents we get the valuable out of CC Spell back but that's pretty much it. Or do I foregt something?
(It's not like Cleanse does anything worthwhile right now...)

[Deleted]

i ll quote this from another thread to the same topic (since i wasnt able to reply due to close)

ok not sure how that translates to me being top dmg in every casual bg? logic? I just brought an example how mobility + ok dmg will come out as a greater dps than high dmg and 0 mobility, cuz u know ppl with half brain can kite, good RBG teams will cc/peel and KITE so ya

the logic is: casul bg.
as u r fellow glad 2,4k rating i rlly dont understand ur ignorance:

(missing) sustained damage was the reason since 5.0 y ret wasnt viable high-end pvp? the rogue/feral-ike mobility didnt help at all. ret pressure window was AW, now its 24/7 + AW.


only braindead get kited while pushing with da pack :D


i dislike most of the changes (not exclusive technically, but also lore-wise), but i think u overestimate the impact of mobility for a non-FC.

[Morally Grey Storm]

i ll quote this from another thread to the same topic (since i wasnt able to reply due to close)



the logic is: casul bg.
as u r fellow glad 2,4k rating i rlly dont understand ur ignorance:

(missing) sustained damage was the reason since 5.0 y ret wasnt viable high-end pvp? the rogue/feral-ike mobility didnt help at all. ret pressure window was AW, now its 24/7 + AW.


only braindead get kited while pushing with da pack


i dislike most of the changes (not exclusive technically, but also lore-wise), but i think u overestimate the impact of mobility for a non-FC.

Well to be honest, Ret was never a stellar FC, casual BG or not.
But come failegion, Ret is virtually banned from even trying to FC in any shape or format.
Which is sad.

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Also, hand if get out of cc is limited to stuns and horrors, if I remember correctly.

[Deleted]

Well to be honest, Ret was never a stellar FC, casual BG or not.
But come failegion, Ret is virtually banned from even trying to FC in any shape or format.
Which is sad.

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Also, hand if get out of cc is limited to stuns and horrors, if I remember correctly.

imagine Uther as FC fleeing the Horde...

[Morally Grey Storm]

imagine Uther as FC fleeing the Horde...

Imagine Ret fleeing at all.

[Deleted]

Imagine Ret fleeing at all.

before 6.2 Nitroboost stacked with LAotL ...

[Morally Grey Storm]

before 6.2 Nitroboost stacked with LAotL ...

And now, in failegion?

[Deleted]

I've found earlier expansions to be very frustrating when pvping but this one takes the price as a Ret. It's also a big punch in the face from blizzard when our only mobility which is also a talent can't be used when carrying the flag. A warlock is tankier in every way than a paladin especially if you take the Demon Skin talent and just spam drain life. If our biggest defensive is our healing then why is it still costing mana and heal for absolute shit since we have to hardcast it and are vulnerable to interupts and CC.

And why does our only slow that can be immediately dispellable, cost a shit ton of mana when it's already on a 30 second cooldown.
On the positive side, it's fun to see some rogues blowing themselves up when I pop Eye for an Eye but as soon as you face someone that knows how to play they just run away and wait it out and I can't do anything to stop them.

[Schattenlied]

[*](live) No artifact. Artifact boosts your damage by a large chunk. Right now, everyone has a lot of HP relative to damage.

This applies to every class, our damage relative to other classes won't change much, if at all.



Greater Blessings need to go die in a fire...

[Aerknard]

before 6.2 Nitroboost stacked with LAotL ...

And now, in failegion?

In failegion will be Ret riding pony riding nitroboost my liege. lol

[Blazur]

I'm somewhat like you. Ret was my first class and even when it wasn't my main it's always gotten a lot of hours of play from me each expac. I've never made a huge pvp rating with it or anything but it's always been fun imo so I think i can give some good advice. Going from wod to legion (haven't got into beta so this is all ptr/pre patch) I haven't felt much of a difference. There are the odd times where you just barely out of someone's range which can be annoying with us not having exorcism but every melee has this problem at some point. I've found mobility complaints a little exaggerated, ret has never been a mobile spec and taking steed really helps. If you use it right and dont blow it the second someone gets barely out of your range it can be really clutch, offensively and defensively. It takes more planning to stick on someone but it's certainly possible majority of the time, but if your 1v1ing a high mobility class/spec it can be rough, but that's simply one of the downsides to the spec which is made up for with our damage. Defensively were better than ever imo, shield of vengeance can hit like a truck and if you take eye for an eye you'll have a good shot of outlasting any other melee. I take holy wrath and using it at the right time literally turns fights around if your smart with it, using it around 20-25% hp leaves u with enough health to either recover from them running after getting hit for so much or u being able to tank the rest of the fight if u have a defensive or cc ready as a follow up. Just dont get greedy with it. Overall they're a little slower than wod but that could be from not having the artifact, not sure. Either way I've still found them a helluva lot of fun to play and you should really give it a go before benching him cause some people think the sky is falling.

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I'm sure you will be able to get some casual fun out of Ret here and there. At the moment it looks like attempting high end structured PvP as Ret will be a very frustrating exercise though. Vanguards, one of the top Ret spec players, stated on his stream that he was disappointing in pre-patch Ret. He said it felt boring to play.

Some things that are keeping me highly leery of the spec...

lack of baseline mobility - The single most frustrating thing in my eyes. Seriously blizz, twist the knife deeper why don't you. I feel like if Divine Steed was baseline with a 15-30 second CD, most of the complaining about the spec would die down.

poor talent selection- Quite a few of the talent lines still seem to have mandatory or "should probably be baseline" talent selections in them. "Fist of Justice" has been the goto 45 talent for how long now? It would be nice if I could pretend those other two talents at 45 even existed.

weak utility - For whatever reason they removed blessing of sacrifice from the spec. Prot still has it. Almost all your utility spells are removable/stealable.

maintenance buffs - Three blessings that you will have to re-apply every single arena game. Have fun with that. It's even more odd when you consider that most other class specs had their buffs removed. Ret paladin is officially the "buff bitch" spec.

Why do you feel like the lvl 45 row sucks? I'm no high rated ret but I've ran blinding light since it came out and have had success with it. A double/triple blind when a teammate is near death or something has been a lot more useful than a shorter stun cd imo, esp with teammates who already also have stuns.

[Deleted]

In failegion will be Ret riding pony riding nitroboost my liege. lol

If you're horny lets do it, ride it, my pony / My saddle's waiting, come and jump on it / If you're horny lets do it, ride it, my pony / My saddle's waiting, come and jump on it

[Morally Grey Storm]

If you're horny lets do it, ride it, my pony / My saddle's waiting, come and jump on it / If you're horny lets do it, ride it, my pony / My saddle's waiting, come and jump on it

yeah yeah, here I come!
Now step aside!
Here I cooome!
Coming atcha liiive!~

[Snegovik]

i ll quote this from another thread to the same topic (since i wasnt able to reply due to close)



the logic is: casul bg.
as u r fellow glad 2,4k rating i rlly dont understand ur ignorance:

(missing) sustained damage was the reason since 5.0 y ret wasnt viable high-end pvp? the rogue/feral-ike mobility didnt help at all. ret pressure window was AW, now its 24/7 + AW.


only braindead get kited while pushing with da pack


i dislike most of the changes (not exclusive technically, but also lore-wise), but i think u overestimate the impact of mobility for a non-FC.

In that particular example I was talking about Casual BGs, something I enjoyed doing for as long as I can Remb playing my Ret, cuz I never died there, I was 99% of the time top dmg with top bow kills, but now? With 0 mobility, where every1 can just run away from me while other ppl on me, its 0 Fun. So not sure how its an ignorance from my part if I brought you a personal example of how and why I dislike Ret.
Now back to Rated, if you think that Rets will be viable in RBGs now that you sustain dmg got buffed but we lost all mobility and utility you are up for a big big surprise, do you know why? Because Locks, feral/boomies, arms, UH are STILL better DPSers than us with much much better aoe and they have actual mobility aka they can catch up with KT or EFC, while Ret will be keep pressing W button. If you do not believe me, please wait till Legion goes life and let me know how you Ret is doing in RBGs compared to top dogs.
Arena wise, yes in Arena I do feel Ret is better off in legion than it was in WOD, but I still don’t think any Ret comps will be top tier comps, simple because the lack of mobility, good players can simply kite and peel Ret hence it will be very very very hard to score a kill on any mobile class with proper peels and cross CC.
Yes I agree with you 100% that it was crap that all of our dmg was tied up to AW but personally I rather have my mobility back than higher sustain dmg, it is a personal favor of the gameplay I enjoy, I hate being 0 mobility class. I have been doing Ret pvp/duels over past few days, I win almost every duel / arena (only lose to those OP UA locks lol) but I don’t enjoy the spec any more, the low mobility hard hitting class, yes I don’t lose but I don’t enjoy it, and for me personally enjoying the class is more important than being able to hit high rating. This is the reason why I will give a shot to DH when they come out and if I enjoy, I will quit my Ret after playing solely him for 9 years.
P.S. I am a lone wolf type of a player even in RBGs I tend to be like a wild card player I do my own thing, and that’s why I must be able to be a self sufficient dps spec, yes if you push with a pack you do not have to worry about mobility as much but that game play is not for me, I enjoy to be a one-man army, and being kited by every1 who got brains is not my type of fun.

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Btw guys dont hate me, but i kinda like HW in 2s, i ran some feral/ret yest and we would face those OP UA locks/boomy or rogue or w/e ofc they would train me, i went auto bubble + HW kek it was fun to watch them get all excited that i am 1% hp then BAM 250k hp hit to their faces...priceless lol also did amazing vs 2x melee teams like War/DK, Ret/Rogue its safe to say that HW is my favorite talent atm vs 2x dps in 2s yolo