[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Schattenlied]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...jYd4f8#fight=1

This log right here, this is what's wrong.

Above one tank by only 1.2k DPS, losing to the other by 17k... Regardless of it happening that bad on only one fight that is absolutely, 100%, unacceptable.

I don't understand how Ret (and every other spec that is barely ahead of, and sometimes behind tanks, there are a couple others) can warrant a raid spot when shit like that is happening.

[Deleted]

This log right here, this is what's wrong.

Above one tank by only 1.2k DPS, losing to the other by 17k... Regardless of it happening that bad on only one fight that is absolutely, 100%, unacceptable.

I don't understand how Ret can warrant a raid spot when shit like that is happening.

Can't look at one log and draw that conclusion. I'm not one to band the 'tuning is still ongoing' drum and ignore the fact that certain features of our toolkit will cause us trouble in Legion, regardless of damage numbers, but our current numbers are not actually bad. Hellfire Assault was a bad one for me (and the least said about Iron Reaver the better but I cocked that up by not having my spells ready on my bars) but other fights were from middling to high. Never at the very top because Warlocks are clearly broken (something to do with a trinket I gather). But we're certainly not dancing in line with tank damage either:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

[Decessus]

This log right here, this is what's wrong.

Above one tank by only 1.2k DPS, losing to the other by 17k... Regardless of it happening that bad on only one fight that is absolutely, 100%, unacceptable.

I don't understand how Ret (and every other spec that is barely ahead of, and sometimes behind tanks, there are a couple others) can warrant a raid spot when shit like that is happening.

Well, I don't think the game is balanced considering our current ilvl and without the artifact weapons.

I'm eager to see some Legion logs

[Deleted]

Can't look at one log and draw that conclusion. I'm not one to band the 'tuning is still ongoing' drum and ignore the fact that certain features of our toolkit will cause us trouble in Legion, regardless of damage numbers, but our current numbers are not actually bad. Hellfire Assault was a bad one for me (and the least said about Iron Reaver the better but I cocked that up by not having my spells ready on my bars) but other fights were from middling to high. Never at the very top because Warlocks are clearly broken (something to do with a trinket I gather). But we're certainly not dancing in line with tank damage either:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Warlocks are pretty damn strongcurrently, through set bonuses and fragment of the dark star trinket (43% chance to sum 3 additional imps on Hand of Guldan). so fucking many imps... just glad that they don´t have their artifact yet that would make them really broken.
ALso your logs give us a pretty good picture of the ret dmg situation right now. We are fine single target and can compete but anything that includes AE... well lets just say we are better of tunneling the boss.
Just me trying to think (don´t do that often so please be gentle with me) but once we are 110 and start getting gear and the further the addon continues the more adds are required to be hit by DS to break even with a single TV not even thinking about JV.

[Kabsal]

Just me trying to think (don´t do that often so please be gentle with me) but once we are 110 and start getting gear and the further the addon continues the more adds are required to be hit by DS to break even with a single TV not even thinking about JV.

The thing is, Ashbringer boosts DS far more than it does TV. 3/3 Righteous Blade gives DS +15% damage, while the equivalent 3/3 Might of the Templar gives TV only 6%. Both are equally affected by Echo of the Highlord (10% more damage! Sound the trumpets!) but Divine Tempest gives DS an additional 20% damage. Once those are all obtained, DS is a boost from TV on just two Judged targets.

[Vpuh]

Well, I don't think the game is balanced considering our current ilvl and without the artifact weapons.

I'm eager to see some Legion logs

Stop with that already. Or do you think Ashbringer's traits will be much more power than others?

[Deleted]

ok forget about it just did some basic math .... let´s please never talk about it...

[Morally Grey Storm]

The thing is, Ashbringer boosts DS far more than it does TV. 3/3 Righteous Blade gives DS +15% damage, while the equivalent 3/3 Might of the Templar gives TV only 6%. Both are equally affected by Echo of the Highlord (10% more damage! Sound the trumpets!) but Divine Tempest gives DS an additional 20% damage. Once those are all obtained, DS is a boost from TV on just two Judged targets.

The thing is, Final Verdict boosts TV by 20%

[Teleros]

The thing is, Final Verdict boosts TV by 20%

Assuming an Ashbringer with 34/34 traits, plus Final Verdict:

TV: 400% * 1.2 * 1.06 * 1.1 = 559.68% weapon damage as Holy
DS: 180% * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 300.564% weapon damage as Holy

(I'm assuming Echo effectively acts as just another 10% multiplicative buff)

[Morally Grey Storm]

Assuming an Ashbringer with 34/34 traits, plus Final Verdict:

TV: 400% * 1.2 * 1.06 * 1.1 = 559.68% weapon damage as Holy
DS: 180% * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.2 = 300.564% weapon damage as Holy

(I'm assuming Echo effectively acts as just another 10% multiplicative buff)

Huh.
That's very interesting, thanks for math fu

[Deleted]

Hello,

What about Skada and GBoM? And whata bout GBoM? Should I use it on 3 raid fellows? or what? Does damage from it counts as my damage?

[Camaris]

This log right here, this is what's wrong.

Above one tank by only 1.2k DPS, losing to the other by 17k... Regardless of it happening that bad on only one fight that is absolutely, 100%, unacceptable.

I don't understand how Ret (and every other spec that is barely ahead of, and sometimes behind tanks, there are a couple others) can warrant a raid spot when shit like that is happening.

Can't look at one log and draw that conclusion. I'm not one to band the 'tuning is still ongoing' drum and ignore the fact that certain features of our toolkit will cause us trouble in Legion, regardless of damage numbers, but our current numbers are not actually bad. Hellfire Assault was a bad one for me (and the least said about Iron Reaver the better but I cocked that up by not having my spells ready on my bars) but other fights were from middling to high. Never at the very top because Warlocks are clearly broken (something to do with a trinket I gather). But we're certainly not dancing in line with tank damage either:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Oh, Hellfire Assault. I'm going to qualify that log with the caveat that the Tome of Clear Mind change slipped under my radar, which is particularly embarrassing since I'm a scribe. Lack of mobility and ranged options while closing was a major factor in my lousy performance, but the other big factor is that I had nowhere near the talent setup I would have preferred for that fight. I'd have definitely swapped to Zeal or Greater Judgment, and possibly Divine Hammer (though the increased CD vs Blade of Wrath makes me ambivalent about that change). There are a few other anomalies as well before I got the tome thing sorted out - like I would have liked to try Eye for an Eye on Fel Reaver to see if it reflects Pound hits.

It's interesting that you think SoV is useless. I got the opposite impression, that in pve it's the strongest defensive in the game. For me, it fully held through 3 Overwhelming Chaos on mythic Xhul, and most times I popped it it ended up timing out even if I hit it during a high AoE damage phase.

From what I've looked at on logs, there's a lot of talent setups that are very close to each other single target. Among the top 6 on Fel Lord I saw ES, FV, BoW, VB, DP and Crusade all get use. Obviously there's going to be one setup that's mathematically superior, but anecdotally, it looks to me like the difference is very very tiny.

First off, I said inadequate, not useless. But let's go to the numbers.

Shield of Vengeance: 61.5K absorb on a 444K health pool. CD 2 minutes (1.5 minutes in a couple months). On GCD. Replaces:

Divine Protection: 8s of 40% magic damage resistance or 20% overall resistance. CD 30s (with Unbreakable Will). Off GCD.

Let's assume DP is glyphed to minimize the amount of damage it can absorb (albeit while increasing its versatility, though this is a fight-by-fight decision in raids and the unglyphed version should see heavier use). We'll throw in the Ashbringer trait too so that the comparison is as favorable as possible for SoV. In that time frame (1.5 min), DP only has to absorb (61.5K/24s) = 2562.5 damage per second to MATCH SoV's absorption.

2600 incoming damage per second on a 444K health pool at 20% absorbed per attack. You could make the argument that SoV will absorb its 61.5K immediately (and then pop) and then I could go to the logs and figure out how many tics of incoming bad XYZ that translates to at 40% absorption vs magical or 20% damage vs physical, but it's probably easier to figure out that on a SINGLE hit, a magical hit only has to inflict (61.5K / .4) = 153.75K, or a physical hit (61.5K / .2) = 307.5K, for DP to match SoV for that ONE hit and then you've still got DP for 8s more. Plus DP is off the GCD so you're more likely to get it up in time if you missed a timer. Plus your overall uptime is going to be higher - you have to not only take into account the phase where SoV worked for you, but add in (potentially) the damage you took while it was on CD, whereas in my experience Unyielding DP was up whenever I needed it.

So, yeah. Inadequate.

Or just do what I do and hump the boss's aggro range and use CS within the first half second. ^_^

I'm averse to potentially body-pulling and ruining the prepots of my colleagues. However, as has been pointed out by others, opening with Judgment won't really hurt anything. The opening sequence I've been using (assuming no procs) is:

Crusader Strike (Fires)
Blade of Wrath
Crusader Strike (Fires)
Crusader Strike (Fires)
Holy Wrath + Judgment macro
Templar's Verdict
Blade or CS
Templar's Verdict
etc...

Which has more than enough time to open with a Judgment as I close first. I'll probably start putting Execution Sentence between the first Blade of Wrath and second Crusader Strike when I use it.

It's funny, I read the Spanish class forums (I'm Spanish) and it's full of threads of people raging about ret, mostly about our mobility, survival, damage and gameplay. Too bad the Spanish community doesn't matter to Blizz. I didn't read the other country's forums but I bet German, French etc, are full of rage too.

You're late to the party. This has been going on for months, and for good reason.

[Deleted]

Can't look at one log and draw that conclusion. I'm not one to band the 'tuning is still ongoing' drum and ignore the fact that certain features of our toolkit will cause us trouble in Legion, regardless of damage numbers, but our current numbers are not actually bad. Hellfire Assault was a bad one for me (and the least said about Iron Reaver the better but I cocked that up by not having my spells ready on my bars) but other fights were from middling to high. Never at the very top because Warlocks are clearly broken (something to do with a trinket I gather). But we're certainly not dancing in line with tank damage either:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Yeah from my performance on HFC in the last two days i think our single target damage is respectable. Our AoE burst as i always touted here many time was lost. Fights like Assault and iskar are no longer places where we can perform very well.
I suprisingly did really well on Tyrant with FV and DH. It was ok during council aswell but not as good.

but, lets be honest, we are still benefitting from what is probably our strongest set bonus ever (3 charges on AW).

Btw Thete, you did you use the blessings there? Or did you not use one on yourself? It's not on the parse for you or your warlocks. If you used it on the locks and its not on the parse then its definitly bugged.

My guild is more modest (and not seriously back to raiding yet, we didnt even have 20 people), but i can share my logs aswell. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

My might contributions are never above 5ish%.

- - - Updated - - -

Hello,

What about Skada and GBoM? And whata bout GBoM? Should I use it on 3 raid fellows? or what? Does damage from it counts as my damage?

I'm still confused over that. You should put them on the 3 highest DPS of your raid. Skada shows the damage as done by them. On logs they only show as yours, but it doesn't quite add up. My guess? It's still bugged.

[Camaris]

Crap. Sorry for the double post but I missed the GBoM discussion. As of Tuesday/Wednesday 7/19 and 7/20, GBoM is allocating its damage to whoever it's placed on instead of the Ret in both Skada and Recount, but Warcraft Logs allocates the damage appropriately. I didn't check to see if pet damage is being excluded from the buff, but someone more industrious than I could dig through my logs - over the course of the two nights I had GBoM on our rogue, both mages, both hunters, a warlock, and one of the DKs.

I did catch GBoM falling off at odd moments but I'm not 100% sure if it's bugged or if the person I had it on retalented and that caused it to drop. Reapplication is a pain since applying the buff a fourth time causes the first instance of the spell to drop off person number one even if you're reapplying the buff to person two or three. So I tend to just cycle a fresh buff onto all three parties.

I know on our rogue and one of our mages I caught GBoM doing up to 10% of their (already considerable) damage. So like anything else proc-based it feels to me like there's some swing in how effective it is.

And for the post before my long one, you want to apply GBoM to the three highest DPS in your raid who will live through the whole fight. If someone dies and is battle rezzed the buff falls off and it can't be reapplied in combat, so survival skills are as important as performance. In my raid our rogue was a no brainer because he's consistently near the top of the charts and Cloak of Shadows. He's incidentally also a Ret who rerolled as soon as he saw the Alpha changes, so he's also smarter than me.

Edit: HAHAHA, saved from the double post by Nemmar!

[Redblade]

I'm still confused over that. You should put them on the 3 highest DPS of your raid. Skada shows the damage as done by them. On logs they only show as yours, but it doesn't quite add up. My guess? It's still bugged.

It's buggy as fuck by the looks of it. Compared a 5 man heroic on beta now and the assassin rogue only got 1.5% ish from it while the DH got 3.5% ish from it. So as far as I can tell not only doesn't it count as your damage on damage meters but what class you put it on seems to make a difference as well.

[Deleted]

Crap. Sorry for the double post but I missed the GBoM discussion. As of Tuesday/Wednesday 7/19 and 7/20, GBoM is allocating its damage to whoever it's placed on instead of the Ret in both Skada and Recount, but Warcraft Logs allocates the damage appropriately. I didn't check to see if pet damage is being excluded from the buff, but someone more industrious than I could dig through my logs - over the course of the two nights I had GBoM on our rogue, both mages, both hunters, a warlock, and one of the DKs.

I did catch GBoM falling off at odd moments but I'm not 100% sure if it's bugged or if the person I had it on retalented and that caused it to drop. Reapplication is a pain since applying the buff a fourth time causes the first instance of the spell to drop off person number one even if you're reapplying the buff to person two or three. So I tend to just cycle a fresh buff onto all three parties.

I know on our rogue and one of our mages I caught GBoM doing up to 10% of their (already considerable) damage. So like anything else proc-based it feels to me like there's some swing in how effective it is.

And for the post before my long one, you want to apply GBoM to the three highest DPS in your raid who will live through the whole fight. If someone dies and is battle rezzed the buff falls off and it can't be reapplied in combat, so survival skills are as important as performance. In my raid our rogue was a no brainer because he's consistently near the top of the charts and Cloak of Shadows. He's incidentally also a Ret who rerolled as soon as he saw the Alpha changes, so he's also smarter than me.

Edit: HAHAHA, saved from the double post by Nemmar!

Some corrections. The buff does not fall off if the person its on dies, but it does if they change spec. My lock was having a hawkeye for it.

Looking at the parse, the person who said that pets aren't beeing accounted for may be right.

I can't believe i just noticed that it shows how much each person contributed to the might damage.

With that said... not even mages seem to be too hot for it. My own contribution to the might damage seems to be 60%.

Yup thats it. Guys... put your mights on classes that don't use pets. Boomkin's seem to be good. Mages may be good second choices.

[Lunavale]

Shield of Vengeance: 61.5K absorb on a 444K health pool

Not sure if it's a bug or what, but SoV is currently shielding for 2x what the tooltip says. Some people have also said the absorb can crit, but I haven't tested that myself.

[Chaosinciter]

Not sure if it's a bug or what, but SoV is currently shielding for 2x what the tooltip says. Some people have also said the absorb can crit, but I haven't tested that myself.

The absorb can crit on initial application (similar to PW:S from priests).

[OrcsRLame]

Oh, Hellfire Assault. I'm going to qualify that log with the caveat that the Tome of Clear Mind change slipped under my radar, which is particularly embarrassing since I'm a scribe. Lack of mobility and ranged options while closing was a major factor in my lousy performance, but the other big factor is that I had nowhere near the talent setup I would have preferred for that fight. I'd have definitely swapped to Zeal or Greater Judgment, and possibly Divine Hammer (though the increased CD vs Blade of Wrath makes me ambivalent about that change). There are a few other anomalies as well before I got the tome thing sorted out - like I would have liked to try Eye for an Eye on Fel Reaver to see if it reflects Pound hits.



First off, I said inadequate, not useless. But let's go to the numbers.

Shield of Vengeance: 61.5K absorb on a 444K health pool. CD 2 minutes (1.5 minutes in a couple months). On GCD. Replaces:

Divine Protection: 8s of 40% magic damage resistance or 20% overall resistance. CD 30s (with Unbreakable Will). Off GCD.

Let's assume DP is glyphed to minimize the amount of damage it can absorb (albeit while increasing its versatility, though this is a fight-by-fight decision in raids and the unglyphed version should see heavier use). We'll throw in the Ashbringer trait too so that the comparison is as favorable as possible for SoV. In that time frame (1.5 min), DP only has to absorb (61.5K/24s) = 2562.5 damage per second to MATCH SoV's absorption.

2600 incoming damage per second on a 444K health pool at 20% absorbed per attack. You could make the argument that SoV will absorb its 61.5K immediately (and then pop) and then I could go to the logs and figure out how many tics of incoming bad XYZ that translates to at 40% absorption vs magical or 20% damage vs physical, but it's probably easier to figure out that on a SINGLE hit, a magical hit only has to inflict (61.5K / .4) = 153.75K, or a physical hit (61.5K / .2) = 307.5K, for DP to match SoV for that ONE hit and then you've still got DP for 8s more. Plus DP is off the GCD so you're more likely to get it up in time if you missed a timer. Plus your overall uptime is going to be higher - you have to not only take into account the phase where SoV worked for you, but add in (potentially) the damage you took while it was on CD, whereas in my experience Unyielding DP was up whenever I needed it.

So, yeah. Inadequate.



I'm averse to potentially body-pulling and ruining the prepots of my colleagues. However, as has been pointed out by others, opening with Judgment won't really hurt anything. The opening sequence I've been using (assuming no procs) is:

Crusader Strike (Fires)
Blade of Wrath
Crusader Strike (Fires)
Crusader Strike (Fires)
Holy Wrath + Judgment macro
Templar's Verdict
Blade or CS
Templar's Verdict
etc...

Which has more than enough time to open with a Judgment as I close first. I'll probably start putting Execution Sentence between the first Blade of Wrath and second Crusader Strike when I use it.



You're late to the party. This has been going on for months, and for good reason.

SoV does way way more than 61.5k. Don't trust the tooltip. When I pop it just out in the world, if I mouseover the buff it says 288k, and in raids I'm fairly certain it does a lot more than that. Like I said, it actually held through 3 separate Overwhelming Chaos casts on mythic Xhul. As in it timed out. SoV has basically been acting as a 15 second bubble to me. I wish I had a WA to track the exact amount it absorbs, but stacking isn't working correctly for some reason.

[Teleros]

SoV does way way more than 61.5k. Don't trust the tooltip. When I pop it just out in the world, if I mouseover the buff it says 288k, and in raids I'm fairly certain it does a lot more than that. Like I said, it actually held through 3 separate Overwhelming Chaos casts on mythic Xhul. As in it timed out. SoV has basically been acting as a 15 second bubble to me. I wish I had a WA to track the exact amount it absorbs, but stacking isn't working correctly for some reason.

It's a bug - Blizzard buffed SoV at some point but never updated the tooltip it seems...

I just did a quick test with my garrison dungeoneer training dummy, and these are the figures:

Attack Power: 7,078
SoV Hit: 141,560 Holy (non-crit)

That is exactly twenty times Attack Power, meaning that the tooltip is out by a factor of two.