[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Camaris]

Not sure if it's a bug or what, but SoV is currently shielding for 2x what the tooltip says. Some people have also said the absorb can crit, but I haven't tested that myself.

The absorb can crit on initial application (similar to PW:S from priests).

SoV does way way more than 61.5k. Don't trust the tooltip. When I pop it just out in the world, if I mouseover the buff it says 288k, and in raids I'm fairly certain it does a lot more than that. Like I said, it actually held through 3 separate Overwhelming Chaos casts on mythic Xhul. As in it timed out. SoV has basically been acting as a 15 second bubble to me. I wish I had a WA to track the exact amount it absorbs, but stacking isn't working correctly for some reason.

That would increase its value quite a bit - but what we have to be concerned about here, is whether the larger value is intended or a bug? Anyone who's played Retribution for a while knows that positive bugs tend to get fixed quickly for us.

EDIT: Bah, simulpost with Teleros. If the higher value is intended, that's a good thing, though I'm still not sure it's a fair trade for Divine Protection on a 30s cooldown. Still, it's something.

[OrcsRLame]

It's a bug - Blizzard buffed SoV at some point but never updated the tooltip it seems...

I just did a quick test with my garrison dungeoneer training dummy, and these are the figures:

Attack Power: 7,078
SoV Hit: 141,560 Holy (non-crit)

That is exactly twenty times Attack Power, meaning that the tooltip is out by a factor of two.

That makes sense. Looking at my attempt on Xhul where it absorbed 3 Overwhelming Chaos casts, it absorbed 231.6k damage with 97499 overhealing. That's insane! I probably used it during 20 stacking Unending Hunger.

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That would increase its value quite a bit - but what we have to be concerned about here, is whether the larger value is intended or a bug? Anyone who's played Retribution for a while knows that positive bugs tend to get fixed quickly for us.

EDIT: Bah, simulpost with Teleros. If the higher value is intended, that's a good thing, though I'm still not sure it's a fair trade for Divine Protection on a 30s cooldown. Still, it's something.

I'll agree that DP being on a 30 sec CD was better, but it's also probably worth it to note that most specs had their defensives gutted. Overall I feel like ret came out ahead compared to most specs, especially with out artifact reducing SoV's CD by 30 seconds.

[Morally Grey Storm]

That would increase its value quite a bit - but what we have to be concerned about here, is whether the larger value is intended or a bug? Anyone who's played Retribution for a while knows that positive bugs tend to get fixed quickly for us.

EDIT: Bah, simulpost with Teleros. If the higher value is intended, that's a good thing, though I'm still not sure it's a fair trade for Divine Protection on a 30s cooldown. Still, it's something.

Mages will be grateful

[ruiizu]

It's buggy as fuck by the looks of it. Compared a 5 man heroic on beta now and the assassin rogue only got 1.5% ish from it while the DH got 3.5% ish from it. So as far as I can tell not only doesn't it count as your damage on damage meters but what class you put it on seems to make a difference as well.

It's a chance to proc buff so while the average amount of gain is 3%, it can vary tremendously based on luck.

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That would increase its value quite a bit - but what we have to be concerned about here, is whether the larger value is intended or a bug? Anyone who's played Retribution for a while knows that positive bugs tend to get fixed quickly for us.

EDIT: Bah, simulpost with Teleros. If the higher value is intended, that's a good thing, though I'm still not sure it's a fair trade for Divine Protection on a 30s cooldown. Still, it's something.

On the flip side, Divine Shield and BoP don't prevent attack and totally prevent all/physical damage. Plus SoV actually does damage. If the buffed value is as stated, then it will definitely see some use. It does, however, need to be taken off the GCD. That really hurts it. No defensive skills should ever be on GCD.

[Morally Grey Storm]

it's also probably worth it to note that most specs had their defensives gutted

orly?

Did DKs lose IBF or AMS/AMZ, Death Pact?

Did Warrs lose EnRegen, DBTS, SWall?

Did Rouges lose CoS, Evasion, Feint?

etc etc

[Redblade]

It's a chance to proc buff so while the average amount of gain is 3%, it can vary tremendously based on luck.

While this could be the case I'm not discarding my theory that class might matter as what I compared was a dot heavy class (assassin) and a more direct damage class (DH). It's most definitely worth looking it to in the same way as pet classes needs to be looked at if they get less overall extra damage.

Edit: This is part of the reason I hate the mechanic. We don't know how it's supposed to work exactly, I mean the tooltip says attacks which would exclude casters completely. We have no good way to track the buff if there is more than one ret in the raid.

This on top of the issues with it dropping off randomly and not counting towards your own dps on recount or similar addons.

[OrcsRLame]

orly?

Did DKs lose IBF or AMS/AMZ, Death Pact?

Did Warrs lose EnRegen, DBTS, SWall?

Did Rouges lose CoS, Evasion, Feint?

etc etc

First off, as I've told you 100x in the past, I'm always talking about pve, not pvp. If you want to talk about pvp that's great, but do it with someone else.

Secondly, I'm not comparing us with the other melee, I'm comparing us with every spec in the game, that means tanks, healers and ranged as well. Aside from a couple outliers, such as Rogues, defensive CDs were gutted game wide concerning CD, the number each spec gets, the strength of those defensives, or in some cases all 3.

And no, warriors do not have DBTS, SW and EnRegen. They get one based on spec. Fury, the go to dps spec, has EnRegen as its only defensive. It provides 30% DR and 20% HP regen on a 2 min CD.

Unholy, to go dps spec for DKs, lost Death Pact and AMS was gutted with the amount it absorbs. It absorbs way less than SoV.

I actually do think rogues need a hefty nerf in pve. They lost none of their defensive capabilities, they have insane mobility and they're one of the highest dps classes in the game. They need to lose something there imo. If they're gonna keep the mobility and defensives, then they need to be absolute bottom of the dps specs. They shouldn't be one of the strongest in all 3 areas. I guarantee as things are now, we're gonna see 4+ rogues in every world first in Legion.

[Morally Grey Storm]

First off, as I've told you 100x in the past, I'm always talking about pve, not pvp. If you want to talk about pvp that's great, but do it with someone else.

but why?
discarding PvP arguments is like discarding 3/4 of the game out of the window ;(

Secondly, I'm not comparing us with the other melee, I'm comparing us with every spec in the game, that means tanks

with tanks?
nay to that, friend

And no, warriors do not have DBTS, SW and EnRegen. They get one based on spec. Fury, the go to dps spec, has EnRegen as its only defensive. It provides 30% DR and 20% HP regen on a 2 min CD.

good to hear that.
Still, the sole fact that SoV is dispellable makes me want to push for our defences being weaker.
ofc from PvP perspective

Unholy, to go dps spec for DKs, lost Death Pact and AMS was gutted with the amount it absorbs. It absorbs way less than SoV.

Im fairly certain Unholy didnt lose Death Pact. You might correct me on that ofc

then again, AMS has twice as short a cd on AMS compared to dispellable SoV .

I actually do think rogues need a hefty nerf in pve. They lost none of their defensive capabilities

See?)
I'm somewhat right ))

[OrcsRLame]

but why?
discarding PvP arguments is like discarding 3/4 of the game out of the window ;(


with tanks?
nay to that, friend


good to hear that.
Still, the sole fact that SoV is dispellable makes me want to push for our defences being weaker.
ofc from PvP perspective



Im fairly certain Unholy didnt lose Death Pact. You might correct me on that ofc

then again, AMS has twice as short a cd on AMS compared to dispellable SoV .


See?)
I'm somewhat right ))

I disagree greatly that pvp is 3/4ths of the game. I do not pvp, at all, period. I play this game only for pve and everything I write is from a pve perspective.

As for tanks, they got immensely gutted concerning their overall survivability. Except for warriors, because Ignore Pain is nuts. Tank self healing has just generally been raped across the board. Prot paladins in mythic HFC do about 10k HPS now in self healing and another 10k to the raid through JoL. In 6.2, I could easily do 100k HPS just to myself without even using WoG. With WoG spam under full resolve, it would have probably been more like 200-300k. GoAK was reduced from a 3 min CD to 5 minutes and DP was removed entirely. Bastion of Light is a really shitty Holy Avenger and Seraphim now equivalently costs 1 more holy power, (2 SOTR charges) and the resource to use it takes way longer to generate. No Unbreakable Spirit also means no more 50% reduced CD on bubble, which can be very relevant on some fights. All the tanks got gutted in a similar manner. Hell, blood DKs don't even have IBF anymore. They don't actually have any defensives that reduce all damage by a percent, except for Rune Tap, but no one takes that because the cost is too high compared to the benefit and there's a better talent on that row anyway. At least their self healing was only cut down to like 1/4th of what it was instead of 1/25th.

Unholy did lose Death Pact, but they gained an ability that lets them transfer damage to their ghoul on a 1 min CD. If the ghoul dies from that, it cannot be re-srummoned for 30 seconds. Also AMS wasn't gutted by a little bit, it was gutted by a lot. My blood DK's AMS absorbs 114k. Before under full resolve that was like 2 mil or some ridiculous number that couldn't be broken outside of multiple stacks of Massive Blast. In a relative sense, tanks got gutted astronomically harder than ret did.

To put this in perspective, I could solo mythic dungeons as prot in 6.2. And I'm not talking taking it one pack at a time and being careful. I could yolo pull like 20 packs together, SS and 2PT18 would keep my alive till I got it all grouped up, then I'd pop ring and AoE it all down. Now if I pull more than 2 packs, I need to be healed by a healer even with ring active, and that's after the 20% damage nerf they did to mobs in mythic dungeons. Before that 20% nerf, I actually almost died through ring, SOTR and GoAK on a particularly rough pack in Skyreach. I have a 741 ilvl as prot, and mythic dungeons are meant to be done around 670, just so we're clear.

And yes, fuck rogues.

[Deleted]

It's a chance to proc buff so while the average amount of gain is 3%, it can vary tremendously based on luck.

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.

Nah its an issue with pet damage and maybe even dots. GBoM even with some change should be around 9% of your damage and not 3%. Demo locks are OP atm and we are all putting our mights on the locks but aren't getting the benefit because most of their damage is pet based.

[OrcsRLame]

Nah its an issue with pet damage and maybe even dots. GBoM even with some change should be around 9% of your damage and not 3%. Demo locks are OP atm and we are all putting our mights on the locks but aren't getting the benefit because most of their damage is pet based.

GBoM is 3% mathematically. It's 10% of 30%. 30 Divided by 10 is 3.

[Camaris]

Mages will be grateful

The way I look at it, it's a shorter step to take a functional ability and then make it off the GCD and undispellable/unspellstealable than to do all of the above and lobby for a functionality improvement as well. And that's true regardless of whether PvE is 25% or 100% of your game.

Or maybe our class fantasy is to be killed by a mage with our own defensive cooldown. That's kind of a type of Retribution. "Buff bitch" is pretty high up on the candidate list as well, judging by our design.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The way I look at it, it's a shorter step to take a functional ability and then make it off the GCD and undispellable/unspellstealable than to do all of the above and lobby for a functionality improvement as well.

yes it is.
One could wonder why it isn't happening, though.
Then one could arrive to certain conclusions.

Or maybe our class fantasy is to be killed by a mage with our own defensive cooldown

However silly our theories and claims about Bzz having a vendetta against Ret, I would very much like if someone were to somehow provide a sound explanation on why all of our measly utility(what's left of it anyway) and all of our defensives are completely vulnerable to dispels/spellsteal.

Is it an oversight?
Highly unlikely.

p.s. While we're at it, I would also very much like to see an explanation on why this very greatest golden trait Echo of Ten Percents, doesn't synergise with our talents.
At all.

[Redblade]

GBoM is 3% mathematically. It's 10% of 30%. 30 Divided by 10 is 3.

And 3x 3% = 9%

[ruiizu]

And 3x 3% = 9%

Those numbers are only averages though. It's very possible for one fight it to contribute 1%, and the next to contribute 6%. Just the average will be 3% per Might across all fights.

[SonicTMP]

but why?
discarding PvP arguments is like discarding 3/4 of the game out of the window ;(

WoW's core has, since it's creation, always been about the slaying of scripted dragons. PvP has always been an after though. From the original honor system to how battlegrounds were handled to WoW losing it's eports slot. PVP has been a mess with consant bandaids tossed at it time and time again. It's taken them 12 years to finnaly admit to they needed to handle skills differently in pvp

The truth is WoW is centered around PvE. Always. You can cry about pvp all you want, and you'd likely be right seeing how horrible its been over the years, but it's nothing more than a side activity among all the other stuff. Sure there are people who take pvp seriously. There are also groups that take, mount hunting, pet collections, achievements or off the wall ideas like leveling only via herbs/mining seriously. It's all side activities when you don't want to level, dungeon or raid.

PvP does need a lot of fixings and a better focus but that will never happen untill the core system, pve, is working perfectly first.

[OrcsRLame]

And 3x 3% = 9%

Yes, but GBoM doesn't display that way on recount/skada/details and such. The buffed player is credited with the damage, so it will show up as around 3% give or take.

[Redblade]

Yes, but GBoM doesn't display that way on recount/skada/details and such. The buffed player is credited with the damage, so it will show up as around 3% give or take.

I was under the impression that we were talking about logs that do show the combined damage...

It's very possible for one fight it to contribute 1%, and the next to contribute 6%. Just the average will be 3% per Might across all fights.

Not it's not, sure there will be deviations but not that big, unless we're talking about trash or normal dungeon bosses. In raid encounters there won't be much deviation due to the amount of attacks/casts involved.

[Deleted]

Those numbers are only averages though. It's very possible for one fight it to contribute 1%, and the next to contribute 6%. Just the average will be 3% per Might across all fights.

It is unlikely that you will see variations in that level looking at the logs. But between 8 and 10% is realistic if you are getting full benefit from it. But, you should'nt be getting 6% if you are getting full benefit. With only 2 targets fully contributing i was getting above 7% on one of my council tries.
This is on boss fights ofc. If its a trash pack, then the fight is so short that you can see bigger variations. The longer combat lasts the more stabilised the number will be.

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Yes, but GBoM doesn't display that way on recount/skada/details and such. The buffed player is credited with the damage, so it will show up as around 3% give or take.

It does on the the logs. Skada and recount need to sort their shizzle.

[OrcsRLame]

It is unlikely that you will see variations in that level looking at the logs. But between 8 and 10% is realistic if you are getting full benefit from it. But, you should'nt be getting 6% if you are getting full benefit. With only 2 targets fully contributing i was getting above 7% on one of my council tries.
This is on boss fights ofc. If its a trash pack, then the fight is so short that you can see bigger variations. The longer combat lasts the more stabilised the number will be.

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It does on the the logs. Skada and recount need to sort their shizzle.

Well, if you're looking at logs, it's gonna depend greatly on the dps of each person that has it.

For example: Let's say you do 10,000 dps and you give GBoM to someone that does 10 million dps. It will give you 3% of their dps, not yours. That comes out to 300k dps, meaning that one GBoM is now ~97% of your total dps. Likewise, if you put GBoM on people that do shitty dps, you'll get shitty returns. You're only going to get GBoM doing ~9% of your dps if you apply it to yourself and 2 other people that do nearly identical dps to you.