Feral Nerfs For Launch

[Deleted]

SR is the highest DPS talent by a huge margin unfortunately.

not for prepatch though

[RayenDark]

SR is the highest DPS talent by a huge margin unfortunately.

Yea prepatch is Seed W/ Inc. You won't be changing that talent.

[Deleted]

I think they should have put Effective CD/Savage Roar/Hectic fast ticking bleeds into one talent tier with each offering a different playstyle but equally good DPS.

[Hobbes0773]

SR is the highest DPS talent by a huge margin unfortunately.

Not since the most recent changes. SotF is very strong now, and SR has had another energy increase. Tbh, it should do a bit more damage overall, but I doubt it will be that big of a difference in real world application. It might be decently ahead in sims, but that's it really.

I would be curious to see logs/sims comparing the two, along with Incarnation. Where are the theorycrafter threads nowadays?

[Krusza]

On the PvP realm I did 2.1mil DPS on the 85 dummy which was my highest with Incarn/EG/BT

Every other build was about 1.8-1.9mil. That's the beta though, not prepatch.

2 runs of each build for 3 minutes each

[Hobbes0773]

On the PvP realm I did 2.1mil DPS on the 85 dummy which was my highest with Incarn/EG/BT

Every other build was about 1.8-1.9mil. That's the beta though, not prepatch.

2 runs of each build for 3 minutes each

~15% difference between them. I would personally like to see it within 5%, but this is one data point, and tbh isn't super scientific. It is good news though. More options is good and I personally have always hated SR.

[Whitehatter]

Anyone else looking at the talent tree then looking at their skill book to see what else is missing and thinking wtf?...
also.. good by perks and glyphs

also a side note, make sure you update all your addons before you logon for the 1st time, i didn't an was confused af siht ekil gniklat saw thac ym .. <- reverse it ... moral of the story always update them addons

[teddabear]

~15% difference between them. I would personally like to see it within 5%, but this is one data point, and tbh isn't super scientific. It is good news though. More options is good and I personally have always hated SR.

Use a trinket other than Seed and try again.

[Hobbes0773]

Use a trinket other than Seed and try again.

I don't use seed. Please don't assume. Post some logs to show that you aren't just going off of your own perceptions.

[teddabear]

I don't use seed. Please don't assume. Post some logs to show that you aren't just going off of your own perceptions.

Sims were showing SR 10% higher without Seed. I believe that is level 110 with Tier 19 gear. You can stop by Feral discord if you want more info.

https://discordapp.com/channels/1141...80917579923458

[RayenDark]

I don't use seed. Please don't assume. Post some logs to show that you aren't just going off of your own perceptions.

Seed is BIS for Prepatch along with Incarnation.

[Tellof]

Seed is BIS for Prepatch along with Incarnation.

Just because it's BIS doesn't mean that everyone owns one

[RayenDark]

Just because it's BIS doesn't mean that everyone owns one

If you don't own Seed (which would be rather odd this late in the teir) use SR.

[Hobbes0773]

Sims were showing SR 10% higher without Seed. I believe that is level 110 with Tier 19 gear. You can stop by Feral discord if you want more info.

https://discordapp.com/channels/1141...80917579923458

I would love to see the sim post. I don't have the opportunity to just hop in Discord. Should be too difficult to get data showing how things sim out after the most recent changes? I find it exceedingly difficult to believe SR is 10% ahead after the most recent changes. Not saying you are wrong, I am just saying I am very skeptical.

[Celestraza]

I find it exceedingly difficult to believe SR is 10% ahead after the most recent changes. Not saying you are wrong, I am just saying I am very skeptical.

Why do you find it difficult to believe?
It is a quite logical result after the hot"fix".

The changes nerfed direct damage (Shred and Ferocious) bite and buffed our bleeds. It changed our playstyle to more DoT oriented making SR (which was strong) a lot stronger than SotF and Incarnation (seems only strong now due to short fights and infinite energy in HFC). Reason is because SotF and Incarnation allow more Shreds and Ferocious Bites, but since they do much less damage you are better off taking SR which buffs bleeds (all damage really).

Wouldn't surprise me if the SR+JW+BT playstyle is miles ahead now.

[Hobbes0773]

Why do you find it difficult to believe?
It is a quite logical result after the hot"fix".

The changes nerfed direct damage (Shred and Ferocious) bite and buffed our bleeds. It changed our playstyle to more DoT oriented making SR (which was strong) a lot stronger than SotF and Incarnation (seems only strong now due to short fights and infinite energy in HFC). Reason is because SotF and Incarnation allow more Shreds and Ferocious Bites, but since they do much less damage you are better off taking SR which buffs bleeds (all damage really).

Wouldn't surprise me if the SR+JW+BT playstyle is miles ahead now.

Again, it comes down to numbers. They nerfed Shred yes, but with JW you are putting bleeds up much more often. The combo of SotF and JW leaves me about enough energy to fit in a FB before needing to refresh, but that is it.

My main point here is that it just looks like we are all assuming SR is the clear winner and no one is presenting numbers to support the statement. The best I have gotten is "they said so on discord" which is just hearsay. I was really hoping for some sort of concrete evidence. Additionally, it would be nice to know how the different talent builds synergize. I really wish EJ was still a thing.

[Tellof]

Again, it comes down to numbers. They nerfed Shred yes, but with JW you are putting bleeds up much more often. The combo of SotF and JW leaves me about enough energy to fit in a FB before needing to refresh, but that is it.

My main point here is that it just looks like we are all assuming SR is the clear winner and no one is presenting numbers to support the statement. The best I have gotten is "they said so on discord" which is just hearsay. I was really hoping for some sort of concrete evidence. Additionally, it would be nice to know how the different talent builds synergize. I really wish EJ was still a thing.

So, I can see you've been on quite the crusade against SR in 2-3 threads now. Personally, I don't like the talent and I opt for SOTF because after years of playing Rogue I like the rotational flow/momentum it provides. With that said, I don't have a hard time believing that SR could be #1 on that tier - one of them has to be, why not SR?

I get that you want to see logs on this, but you could also just test it yourself and come to your own conclusion. Ultimately, nobody but you is going to play your character, and you can talent yourself however you choose. Also keep in mind that secondary stats are going to have an impact on variance with which talent is best and people aren't going to see the same results. If you're super heavy on mastery and you're putting up gnarly bleeds, then SR is probably going to come out on top because it buffs that damage. If you're using SOTF, you can only apply so many Rips and Rakes without clipping them, and so you have to introduce more FB which doesn't benefit from mastery - a crit heavy build may be more performant here, or if you're mixing in haste for higher energy gain.

Either way, you should do some testing yourself for 2 reasons: It will give you some peace of mind, and it will at least give you something tangible with which you can actually be dismissive of other people's claims. You can't effectively complain that nobody is willing to share logs on their stance when you aren't sharing them on yours.

[Hobbes0773]

So, I can see you've been on quite the crusade against SR in 2-3 threads now. Personally, I don't like the talent and I opt for SOTF because after years of playing Rogue I like the rotational flow/momentum it provides. With that said, I don't have a hard time believing that SR could be #1 on that tier - one of them has to be, why not SR?

I get that you want to see logs on this, but you could also just test it yourself and come to your own conclusion. Ultimately, nobody but you is going to play your character, and you can talent yourself however you choose. Also keep in mind that secondary stats are going to have an impact on variance with which talent is best and people aren't going to see the same results. If you're super heavy on mastery and you're putting up gnarly bleeds, then SR is probably going to come out on top because it buffs that damage. If you're using SOTF, you can only apply so many Rips and Rakes without clipping them, and so you have to introduce more FB which doesn't benefit from mastery - a crit heavy build may be more performant here, or if you're mixing in haste for higher energy gain.

Either way, you should do some testing yourself for 2 reasons: It will give you some peace of mind, and it will at least give you something tangible with which you can actually be dismissive of other people's claims. You can't effectively complain that nobody is willing to share logs on their stance when you aren't sharing them on yours.

I have tested it and find that SR doesn't outperform by any significant margin.

And I don't have a "crusade" going on, nor do I appreciate the ad hoc. What I would like is a discussion centered on actual data rather than people treating perceptions and feelings as cold hard facts.

The reason I didn't mention my own testing is because I fall under the same bias as most others: I am one person, with a bias, and rotations/talents/etc haven't been fully fleshed out yet. Sims and better players than us could determine this, which used to be the case with EJ.

Additionally, being skeptical of someone else's claims in the absence of data is exactly what this thread should be doing. Accepting random claims is not exactly sound advice. Furthermore, I am not complaining about anything. I am asking for concrete data to back up claims.

When no one asks for evidence of the claims, we end up with posts from people saying "use icy veins" when it is objectively wrong in several places at the moment. Don't assume that because I ask "why" to someone that I am complaining. Far from it.

I hope that clears things up.

[teddabear]

I am a bit mystified about what is so difficult about going by feral discord but that is where you need to go if you want to see sims. I am sure they will be on Fluid Druid someday and maybe even here, but it doesn't look like anybody is going to go out of there way to post them here just because you are demanding them.

It sounds like there are more changes coming anyway so current sims are probably irrelevant. However I don't need a sim to tell you that if Bliz doesn't revert the nerf to FB then SR is going to destroy the other choices.

[Hobbes0773]

I am a bit mystified about what is so difficult about going by feral discord but that is where you need to go if you want to see sims. I am sure they will be on Fluid Druid someday and maybe even here, but it doesn't look like anybody is going to go out of there way to post them here just because you are demanding them.

It sounds like there are more changes coming anyway so current sims are probably irrelevant. However I don't need a sim to tell you that if Bliz doesn't revert the nerf to FB then SR is going to destroy the other choices.

Because no one is in there? Am I missing where I can visually view data? The ability to hop into a chat when other people are there is not really an option for a lot of people? I am mystified about how that is hard to get?