[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[ruiizu]

I was under the impression that we were talking about logs that do show the combined damage...



Not it's not, sure there will be deviations but not that big, unless we're talking about trash or normal dungeon bosses. In raid encounters there won't be much deviation due to the amount of attacks/casts involved.

Over many raid fights no it will never vary that much, but on a single fight that's easily within 2 standard deviations. It may only occur in less than 5% of fights, so I'm not saying it's something you'll see often or notice. But mathematically speaking it's statistically likely to happen on occasion. For instance, consider a fight where you put it on yourself and the only time you get procs are on Crusader Strike and auto-attack. Possible? Yes. Likely to occur frequently? Not a chance.

My major point is that with something % proc based, you're always at a slight mercy of RNG, even though it's such a small RNG that it largely doesn't matter. I don't like the mechanic in general because it restricts the use of the other Blessings.

[Deleted]

Guys I know you all discuss the finer details of certain numbers and ability tuning! But there is one major problem that would make life much easier and I hope we can achieve it all together! I think if we could get Turalyon's Might back as a baseline ability for RET Paladins, it would help us a lot and in addition some talents that interact with it! So anyone who can still post some feedback on the Blizzard Legion Beta Forums please create a post that should ask for the return of Turalyon's Might as a baseline talent for RETs. Those who can not post there, please create suggestion ticket and explain that we need Turalyon's Might. Post it everywhere anywhere all over the Blizzard forums. If we can at least unite at ONE point with ONE argument that should help to get the attention of the devs. If necessary, we can start a motion to post it all together on twitter to the devs!

[Morally Grey Storm]

Lothars length of Tyraloins Might would not help at all.
The problem is the whole toolkit.
Or rather, how weak it is.
Or much mire rather, how absent it is.

What we need is either emancipate back, or HoF undispellable if selfcast.
What we need is short cd defense cd.
What we need is means to heal on the move.
What we need is for derpony to be made baseline, with lower cd and immunity to slows, at the very least.
What we need is all of the above.
Simultaneously.

[nyc81991]

Guys I know you all discuss the finer details of certain numbers and ability tuning! But there is one major problem that would make life much easier and I hope we can achieve it all together! I think if we could get Turalyon's Might back as a baseline ability for RET Paladins, it would help us a lot and in addition some talents that interact with it! So anyone who can still post some feedback on the Blizzard Legion Beta Forums please create a post that should ask for the return of Turalyon's Might as a baseline talent for RETs. Those who can not post there, please create suggestion ticket and explain that we need Turalyon's Might. Post it everywhere anywhere all over the Blizzard forums. If we can at least unite at ONE point with ONE argument that should help to get the attention of the devs. If necessary, we can start a motion to post it all together on twitter to the devs!

While I wouldn't mind seeing that, I think there is an easier way of fixing Ret's mobility making Divine Steed baseline like it is for Prot paladins.

One thing that really gets me I can't figure out is Blizzards decision to put two Movement Speed talents on the same talent tier as a Major Survivability Cd.

- - - Updated - - -

Lothars length of Tyraloins Might would not help at all.
The problem is the whole toolkit.
Or rather, how weak it is.
Or much mire rather, how absent it is.

What we need is either emancipate back, or HoF undispellable if selfcast.
What we need is short cd defense cd.
What we need is means to heal on the move.
What we need is for derpony to be made baseline, with lower cd and immunity to slows, at the very least.
What we need is all of the above.
Simultaneously.

They definitely should not have removed Emancipate. They didn't remove Druids ability to Form switch out of snares.

[Valandaar]

Is anyone else's default UI proc flash on action bar gone?

[Kelemar]

Is anyone else's default UI proc flash on action bar gone?

Yes, it is gone, you can restore it with WeakAuras, however.

See this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...effect/d0lauu1
(This was also posted by Socce, post #8074 on page 404)

Back to topic. I agree, Emancipate should have stayed. Or simply a passive ability akin to a "Crusader's March" where we cannot be slowed below 100% movement speed and move 15% faster, for the complete lack of baseline gap closing abilities. The 15% would help in PvE, too, and in addition to Seal of Light I could imagine moving at a constant 135% in PvE encounters. Seal of Light should still not cost Holy Power, or at least do something else as well.

Otherwise, the rotation feels unrewarding and uninspired. Because it is stale and very predictable, I feel that nothing I press really matters. The Art of War on Blade of Justice would be a welcome addition to the otherwise boring rotation.

Away with the Judgment window, too. Having only two Holy Power generators feels very bland, to be honest, because these two spells become so mundane after a while. If Blizzard really wanted us to be more melee-oriented, they should've just reduced Exorcism's range to 12 yards, removed the 10 yards range on Final Verdict and let The Art of War increase Exorcism's damage by 150% (or whatever value it would've taken to bump Exorcism's damage above the other generators).

Either way, I much preferred the MoP/WoD model with three generators.

As everyone else said, Greater Blessings need to go. They are garbage and simply not fun.

Having Eye for an Eye and Shield of Vengeance on the GCD is not fun.
Echo of the Highlord is not fun.
Divine Tempest is in my opinion not fun, it just adds clunkiness to a perfectly fine spell.
Having lost Word of Glory is not fun. Similarly, having lost Selfless Healer (don't care about the +healing amount, but the cast time reduction) with Supplication is not fun.
Having lost Hammer of Wrath is not fun.

I really can't see what fun of the spec is left. Can someone explain what is currently fun about playing Ret?

Can you imagine right now leveling a Retribution Paladin from Level 1 to Level 90 without any movement speed increasing abilities, and only ever pressing the W key?! It is a nightmare...

I've read on the Blizzard forums that our follower Arator the Redeemer has a Holy Charge ability?! Is that true? How come we do not have that? I hate it when NPCs have more spells and abilities than my character, seeing as we are supposed to be the most skilled/the best (Retribution) Paladin around at the time.

To add insult to injury, Blizzard removed EXORCISM, one of the most iconic Ret spells I feel, which originally could only be cast on Undead and DEMONS, along with Turn Evil. I can't stop shaking my head. Who in the heavens is responsible for this atrocity?

Being ignored on the forums (currently on 115 pages) and on other "media" does not help restoring my faith for a better future. Maybe 8.0 will fix it.

A bit off topic: Anyone else noticed that Blood Elfs retain the new HD models, even if the option for the new models is not checked? (all the other races still work fine)

[Vanderhuge]

Started back up for the first time in 6 months and played around with a few toons. Unholy DK? Felt like it was fleshed out over the course of months, with each talent just giving that little bit of gameplay difference. Outlaw Rogue? Aside from a rogue finally feeling like a proper rogue, the talents can greatly change how the spec is played.

Retribution... this feels like it was given to a group of interns last year because the actual class designers were too busy working on other classes. So many of these talents just feel outright lazy. To break them down:

• Consecration - Why is a baseline ability for one spec a talent in another? The talent doesn't even fit in with the overall theme of the tier. Final Verdict? Improves HP spenders. Execution Sentence? Gives a hard hitting spender that requires proper use of Judgment. Consecration... and AoE ability that neither grants or spends HP and isn't terribly exciting. Why not something that improves Divine Storm? Having it last for some extra hits similar to Rushing Jade Wind.
• Greater Judgment - Another talent that doesn't fit the tier. The Fires of Justice and Zeal both improve Crusader Strike and this talent doesn't. Scrap this, replace this with Blessed Hammer, similar to Prot. Have the Ret version of Blessed Hammer spread the Judgment debuff to any nearby targets.
• Level 75 Tier - We have... an offensive ability that heals, Retaliation, and Word of Glory. This appears to be the dump for failed talents in other tiers. This whole tier just needs to be reworked. JV feels alright. Holy Wrath should be moved up to here, replacing Word of Glory. Eye for an Eye should be the passive choice - grant a damage boost based on missing health? Those three choices give the tier a common theme: the actual theme of retribution.
• Divine Steed - Needs to be a baseline ability for all Paladin specs. Change the Ret/Holy talents to improve the ability, similar to Prot.
• Seal of Light - Just change this back to Pursuit of Justice. It's not the most exciting talent ever, but it always got the job done. A melee without the choice of a passive movement speed buff feels awful.
• Holy Wrath - If this were moved, it would need a replacement. 100 has the RNG boost in DP and the cooldown boost in Crusade. Seems like a great place to put a reworked Seal of Light. Instead of movement speed, have SoL grant some form of a damage buff for 20 seconds per HP spent. Haste? Converting physical damage to holy damage/boosting normal sources of holy damage? Could be plenty of options here.

Just a bit of ranting over the lackluster talents. The spec itself doesn't play as boring as most people made it out to be - just a matter of getting through another rocky first tier. Look on the plus side, gents - it can't be initial Cataclysm bad.

[Merrena]

Holy Wrath - If this were moved, it would need a replacement. 100 has the RNG boost in DP and the cooldown boost in Crusade. Seems like a great place to put a reworked Seal of Light. Instead of movement speed, have SoL grant some form of a damage buff for 20 seconds per HP spent. Haste? Converting physical damage to holy damage/boosting normal sources of holy damage? Could be plenty of options here.

Seal of Light used to give Attack Speed, then Haste, then changed to Movement speed. Lots of complaining, which I agreed with, about Seal of Light just being another Inquisition.

[Matt0193]

Seal of Light used to give Attack Speed, then Haste, then changed to Movement speed. Lots of complaining, which I agreed with, about Seal of Light just being another Inquisition.

That's fine though. Feral can opt into Savage Roar if they want, Outlaw can opt into SnD to replace RtB. I'd much rather have a functional talent that's boring instead of a gimmick talent that encourages terrible play and at worst encourages griefing in PuGs.

[Puzzony]

Seal of Light used to give Attack Speed, then Haste, then changed to Movement speed. Lots of complaining, which I agreed with, about Seal of Light just being another Inquisition.

Because it is much better now xD Useless POS talent..

[Tart]

I'm a bit late to the party but what happened to the idea of ret having a teleport?

[Deleted]

I'm a bit late to the party but what happened to the idea of ret having a teleport?

Turalyon's Might pretty much offered that actually!

well the problem is though that a 3 sec. divine steed as a baseline ability with a 45 sec. CD would not help, we would still be stuck with useless ability. What I suggested, was having a gap-closer in addition to the optional divine steed talent. tbh I dislike the divine steed talent as it is right now. I'd much rather have the old "Speed of Light" talent (Increases your movement speed by 70% for 8 sec. 45 sec. CD) in addition to Turalyon's Might.

At least we all know it was there and at some point the DEVs thought it was right to use it. May be we can at least make them add it to our tool kit!

Here is a link to the Blizzard EU Paladin forums, where I started a discussion about the return of Turalyon's Might! It is simple and clear that we point at a certain ability which Blizzard should clearly understand. The more often we mention the more likely it is to be implemented!
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612861987

[Teleros]

Can you imagine right now leveling a Retribution Paladin from Level 1 to Level 90 without any movement speed increasing abilities, and only ever pressing the W key?! It is a nightmare...

Sounds like vanilla to me :P .

Now all we need is to scrap every button not called Judgement and it'll be 1.0 all over again :P !

I've read on the Blizzard forums that our follower Arator the Redeemer has a Holy Charge ability?! Is that true? How come we do not have that? I hate it when NPCs have more spells and abilities than my character, seeing as we are supposed to be the most skilled/the best (Retribution) Paladin around at the time.

Nothing on Wowhead about this.

According to that, he has Consecration, BoM and the standard boss-killing stuff for missions, plus two trait slots. WowDB further lists his abilities as Avenging Wrath, Divine Shield, Divine Storm, Rebuke, and Repentance.

Still, WowDB could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time Blizzard's given a paladin NPC an awesome ability that would help out players a lot...

[ruiizu]

Turalyon's Might pretty much offered that actually!

well the problem is though that a 3 sec. divine steed as a baseline ability with a 45 sec. CD would not help, we would still be stuck with useless ability. What I suggested, was having a gap-closer in addition to the optional divine steed talent. tbh I dislike the divine steed talent as it is right now. I'd much rather have the old "Speed of Light" talent (Increases your movement speed by 70% for 8 sec. 45 sec. CD) in addition to Turalyon's Might.

At least we all know it was there and at some point the DEVs thought it was right to use it. May be we can at least make them add it to our tool kit!

Here is a link to the Blizzard EU Paladin forums, where I started a discussion about the return of Turalyon's Might! It is simple and clear that we point at a certain ability which Blizzard should clearly understand. The more often we mention the more likely it is to be implemented!
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612861987

Turalyon's Might wasn't bad; it suffered from the same problem as Holy Wrath. It was a talent. Quirky talents that compete with genuinely useful output skills tend not to see much love (especially when it comes to competing with DPS talents). But having a 30 second teleport with Turalyon's would definitely be beneficial. Anyone that says "I wouldn't want that" is kind of a fool.

[Teleros]

Turalyon's Might wasn't bad; it suffered from the same problem as Holy Wrath. It was a talent.

It was also clunky as heck. You had to target an area then cast it again to teleport... not the best system TBH.

[Deleted]

Well, if you're looking at logs, it's gonna depend greatly on the dps of each person that has it.

For example: Let's say you do 10,000 dps and you give GBoM to someone that does 10 million dps. It will give you 3% of their dps, not yours. That comes out to 300k dps, meaning that one GBoM is now ~97% of your total dps. Likewise, if you put GBoM on people that do shitty dps, you'll get shitty returns. You're only going to get GBoM doing ~9% of your dps if you apply it to yourself and 2 other people that do nearly identical dps to you.

We are debating obvious things here. Of course, if you put your might on crappy DPS it isn't going to give good returns. The point was ruiizu was saying that it shouldnt be uncommon to see things like 6% and that is completely unrealistic. The variation shouldn't be that big in boss fights. The delta should be smaller and goes up and down, not only down.

Point at case is, you will get something between 8 and 10% if you are putting might on the right people and they don't die. 6% would only happen in the case someone died. Its not realistic to think the proc swings that much during boss fights, but even if it does, it does on both directions.



On the subject of turalyon's might, i never had a problem with. It is clunky QQ etc, i didn't care. Just give us a nice window of time between placing the sword and beeing able to teleport so we can strategise with it (placement has to be off the GCD). Baseline or talented in place of the useless consecration or seal of light i'd be up for it.
And if the placement is off the GCD and the buff has some time it wouldn't be clunky at all. It would be an insanely useful ability that we desperatly need. I would totally take it over derpony.

- - - Updated - - -

Lothars length of Tyraloins Might would not help at all.
The problem is the whole toolkit.
Or rather, how weak it is.
Or much mire rather, how absent it is.

What we need is either emancipate back, or HoF undispellable if selfcast.
What we need is short cd defense cd.
What we need is means to heal on the move.
What we need is for derpony to be made baseline, with lower cd and immunity to slows, at the very least.
What we need is all of the above.
Simultaneously.

Good storm, i usually agree with you, but for the short cooldown defensive, i have verified that it is the case for every spec and not just Ret. The movement is still an issue though.

[Valandaar]

Action bar spell proc flash being missing was confirmed by GM to be a bug. thanks for the reply. They even had new do a full reinstall.

[ruiizu]

It was also clunky as heck. You had to target an area then cast it again to teleport... not the best system TBH.

I only agree with that on the basis that the teleport circle only lasted 10 seconds. If it lasted as long as Demonic Circle, you might not necessarily agree.

[Teleros]

I only agree with that on the basis that the teleport circle only lasted 10 seconds. If it lasted as long as Demonic Circle, you might not necessarily agree.

That's the trouble. For a short CD mobility tool, the fewer actions needed the better - see Charge or Blink etc. A long CD mobility tool like Demonic Circle is more forgiving in this regard, because you're not really expecting to spam it to bounce around the battlefield. DC is nicer to deal with specific boss abilities on a moderate timer, to reset PvP fights, or as an emergency PvP tool.

However, the Demonic Circle model interacts badly with the damage portion of Turalyon's Might: a constant AE damage aura is boring for PvE if it hits mobs, and annoying if it can't be used to hit mobs. In PvP it can be awkward when it comes to CC effects. Of course you can just remove the damage component of Turalyon's Might, but as it existed in the early alpha that's not what Blizz was thinking.

[ruiizu]

That's the trouble. For a short CD mobility tool, the fewer actions needed the better - see Charge or Blink etc. A long CD mobility tool like Demonic Circle is more forgiving in this regard, because you're not really expecting to spam it to bounce around the battlefield. DC is nicer to deal with specific boss abilities on a moderate timer, to reset PvP fights, or as an emergency PvP tool.

However, the Demonic Circle model interacts badly with the damage portion of Turalyon's Might: a constant AE damage aura is boring for PvE if it hits mobs, and annoying if it can't be used to hit mobs. In PvP it can be awkward when it comes to CC effects. Of course you can just remove the damage component of Turalyon's Might, but as it existed in the early alpha that's not what Blizz was thinking.

Ultimately they tried to create a hybrid between Demonic Teleport and Heroic Leap, but failed to capture the primary benefits of either. One being that melee generally want to get somewhere dynamic, while ranged are more comfortable going to a pre-destined location (because they can hit from anywhere essentially).

Personally, my original thought was to combine Execution Sentence with Turalyon's Might. Place a debuff on the target; when the skill is activated again, you appear above the target and slam down on them for holy damage, rooting or stunning them, or drastically reducing movement speed. It would have been cool because you could either prematurely end the debuff or let it tick a while until you strategically move and damage.