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  1. #781
    Quote Originally Posted by Virothe View Post
    "Your lists don't add contribution, But if you keep scoring me low It says something about you!"

    So.... Ya.... You're just an idiot, I gotcha. You're pushing me because you've run out of anything else to push on and you don't get what the deffinition of either "contribution" Or "Irony" is.

    Because you declaring that my lists are not contribution while using them to extrapolate an opinion thus pointing out that my lists are in fact ,contribution, is ironic.
    I'm afraid you misunderstood my point. The only thing I really see you've done as contribution per se is that list. Yet you've said it's not really designed for reasons to vote for or against someone. However, if you consistently score someone as negative who is working on trying to put forth contributive effort that would lead me to strongly believe you have an ulterior motive. Especially if you also take as a contribution point "Voting so and so because they're a lurker" as a positive.

    To me that means you want to inflate the value of someone, in this case yourself, trying to also lurk in the shadows and throw out vague text and claim it is 'contribution' while at the same taking someone who is spending a lot of time analyzing and providing reasons and insight as to what they see (even if they are potentially making mistakes while doing it due to being new) and scoring it negative. That seems VERY scummy to me. The fact that you also seem to resort to petty insults when confronted reminds me of how you acted quite a bit in the last game you provided lists on... and were scum in.

    So for me, that's a lot of very negative reads I'm getting on you, and the more I'm thinking on it the less I can recollect anything that would make me think otherwise. Even an initial vote on Allowyn could be simply a ploy to activate an ability for mafia, trigger a win condition of yours, or to just try and buy yourself towncred by basically being a cold-hearted player and lynching a teammate of yours that is lurking. And if that vote on Allowyn you did WAS for that reason... DAMN that is cold but also a seriously impressive gambit.

    A better way of reading my statement is: Your lists are a lack of contribution to me because A) You are going to great lengths to try and showcase to everyone that these lists are your contribution. but... B) You admit you, yourself, designed them to not really be a reason to vote for or against someone they're just an arbitrarily scaled scoreboard. So either you are intending them to be a source of contribution and a reason to vote or not vote on someone, or they aren't intended to be contribution in which case, do SOMETHING.

    Reviewed all 38 of your posts that exist up to #773... Of them I'd rate 6 as "contribution". Even by your "scale". You even admit that you should spend less time on the list and more time playing the game. And no I'm not going to tell you how to improve your lists, that's not my job. You want them better, make them better yourself. I can tell you that the biggest flaw I see is that you control the scoring and tweak it as you deem fit without actually making it a concrete, static system that anyone else could duplicate your results with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    ...
    @shirokitsune your vote came on Kryll and then you just kinda disappeared.
    Yeah... I fell asleep and set and an alarm for 11am. Got up and was perusing posts forward from my last post, at 11:05 and formulating a response as I went... Unfortunately I got to the end of the posts and found a hammer had gone out. So I finished my thoughts, stuck em in my QT as a personal note and then posted it D4.

    I'm not sure now if I believe the Doc claim or not. I still don't trust Kryllian, and there's been lots of good reasons said as to how if they are a Doc they've done a gross misplay. So if the best vote for the day is to end up attempting to Lynch Kryllian to prove if he's red or blue... So be it. Even with everything I read, ending D3 I wouldn't have done an Unvote so, it is why I would be willing to vote on him... But not until closer to day end, I prefer to reserve the right to review my thoughts and see other's opinions and how things shake out before voting on him. Especially since I'm having serious issues believing Virothe isn't scum right now.

    I would not have voted on Cruelle, as I said once I thought about how forcefully they were pushing for a lynch of themselves ON a certain day it started to seem really suspicious that they get lynched on THAT particular day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmm I guess pointing out a flaw I see in @Virothe's list is actually giving advice on how to improve it. Mea culpa.
    Last edited by shirokitsune; 2016-07-24 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Because it didn't take the full text of the first half the post...

  2. #782
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Kryllian is likely dead super soon anyways if he saved himself N3. So then it becomes to we believe he saved himself N3 and believe the scum will NK him tonight or not? That of course assumes he is the doc, which I certainly question. I'll likely wait til later for a vote to avoid accidental early hammer since it's looking to be heading that way, and a lynch certainly avoids the wifom.

    Shiro: on one hand i understand the back and forth, but this seems superbly nit picky. I'm also getting flash backs of D1 Danner v dupti all over again. I've read several games. Virothe the has always been vocal about fixing the lurker problem, and has often been rather rough in his message about it. I took this list as his way to fix that. I legit don't think there's anything deeper to that.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by dupti View Post
    While I'm sure you understand that this doesn't really mean much, I actually kind of like your answer.
    Why is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryllian View Post
    Based of Crackles comment "it should be obvious" probably Danner. But right now he's pissing me off so I'm not feeling bad about voting him at the moment.
    That seems... illogical.

    If he wasn't voting on you, would you think he is scum?

    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    As for Marack, I lean scum. Weakly, but scum nonetheless.
    I would agree with this.

    He's also been calling out people absconding. His callout to Anakso I particularly liked.
    True, though he spent the first day or so basically doing nothing but this, if I recall correctly. The problem, as you stated, is that I don't know if I can scum-read him for this as much as I do others.

    And the rest of your points regarding the inconsistencies in his trust lists echo a lot of my own thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanjori View Post
    Now the thing with the Jester is that oin certain games the Jester will kill someone and take them out, usually someone that voted on them.

    ..

    Now despite those two, I think Reticence is a pretty clear one here. Reticence knows what he is doing, he would probably be aware that a Jester lynch could come with a haunting.
    This is an interesting thought process.

    To begin with, standard Jesters aren't vengeful, so the argument that someone based their actions on the possibility that a rarely-used role would have a non-standard element this time seems a little flimsy.

    Now, I will say I was slightly wary about Cruelle being Vengeful, but that was largely due to the fact that he role claimed that he was Vengeful. Obviously this wasn't a concern as long as Cruelle was town, but I was having my doubts on that front, even if I couldn't rationalize them. The worst case scenario I could come up with was that he could have been trying to break the pseudo-masonry that's forming between me, Dupti and Danner, but I couldn't rationalize why scum would give themselves up for that, unless he felt that he was already a lost cause due to his claiming he got targeted by a hit and then not dying.

    All of that said, that's not why I didn't vote for him. Partly, I wanted to see who would push for his lynch. For the most part, though, I was honestly just unsure of where the votes were at the time of that post, intended to find out and return, but got distracted by other things.

    For the rest, I normally expect Reticence to be a very vocal townie that generally pushes hard and raises a fair amount of suspicion around people. This is one of those games again where I feel he is happier to apply minimal pressure and try and talk to people about what reads they have, rather than trying to influence people.

    FoS: Reticence

    I may come back and vote him soon, but I want to read more today about people pushing Kryll.
    Actually, I'd like you to follow up on this, because I'm not sure you're even playing the same game I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Right, to answer this:
    I like that you pinged Anakso. Do you have more to that read than what you have here?

    - Reticence: I'd like him to contribute more. He may be busy but he's been fairly...I don't really know how to describe it. He seemed much more engaged earlier on and more guarded/quiet the more the game has gone on.
    You realize it's only D4 and I was only quiet for D3, right? The game hasn't gone on long enough to even consider that a trend.

    @Xanjori / @Graeham, to explain: I don't like OMGUS. I consider it an unreliable abandonment of logic, which is why I pinged Kryllian for it earlier in this post. As such, I want to clarify that my questioning of you is not that, but an attempt to view your suspicion of me as objectively as if I were another player, and factor that into my reads of you.

    To that end, I don't understand how anyone who has been reading this game would think that I am scum. I don't understand how I can encourage Dupti to lynch Catta instead of Crackleslap D1 and have people think I am scum. I don't understand how we can choose Allowyn at the last minute D2 and push for her lynch and have people think that I am scum.

    Both of you (and @Marack, too, actually, so I'll lump you in with this) have brought me up as part of your reads or your suspicions, but the reasons that you've given have always been very isolated and flimsy enough to not focus on as anything more than odd. But it's becoming a trend, now, so I want all of you to elaborate and give me a comprehensive read on me. It's one thing to note something as being odd or off and that you might have to second-guess me later, but why am I routinely showing up on your radar now?

    If I were not me, I would trust me based on vote records alone. That makes me consider your suspicion of me a little suspicious, and I currently read you (Xanjori and Graeham, anyway) as leaning town.

    As for Marack, however...

    Quote Originally Posted by shirokitsune View Post
    Stuff about Virothe.
    I actually really like this post, particularly the parts about how he uses anger as a defense as scum.

    I would also point out that Virothe's vote on Allowyn was very early, at a time when I don't think she was under any threat of being lynched. I would not give Virothe too much town-cred for that vote, as he could just as easily have been discarding his vote and/or trying to pick up a few townie points in the process.

    @dupti / @Danner: If that's the direction you want to go, I will join you two later, but I'd like to push some other people, first.

    Vote: Marack

    Would also vote Virothe.
    Last edited by Reticence; 2016-07-24 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Escape characters are a thing. Good to know.

  4. #784
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    Shiro: on one hand i understand the back and forth, but this seems superbly nit picky. I'm also getting flash backs of D1 Danner v dupti all over again. I've read several games. Virothe the has always been vocal about fixing the lurker problem, and has often been rather rough in his message about it. I took this list as his way to fix that. I legit don't think there's anything deeper to that.
    I understand that there is a lurker problem and that Virothe is trying to fix it. But you can't fix the lurker problem by effectively lurking yourself. Like I said, using the criteria Virothe listed, I counted 6 posts out of the 38 they had done as contribution. We're edging on into post #800 and only 6 statements that people could try to use to base reads off of them on?

  5. #785
    @dupti / @Danner: If that's the direction you want to go, I will join you two later, but I'd like to push some other people, first.
    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure yet. It depends on how Kryllian answers that vital question of motive for lying. In lack of an answer, I certainly will keep my vote where it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Doh. The above was in reply to Reticence.
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  6. #786
    Blademaster Marack's Avatar
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    I dont have my notes with me while im out of town this weekend. Ill do my best. Few on the trust and distrust lists for me.

    Distrust
    Anasko - Cant really remember a whole lot of contribution and seems to be maintaining a low profile thoughout most of the ganme. While not entirely a scum tell, it isnt helping out the town either. Not participating as much as I think they should be. Leaning scum

    Kryllian - Claims doc, with not counterclaim. Lied to everyone to prevent lynch and keep out of sight. Failed at not garnering attention Wasnt on the Catta lynch, instead on dupti. Large portion of vote count seems to be fluff to feign activity in the game. Leaning scum

    Also have Graeham and Xan on my radar as suspicious, but would have to scroll back through many pages and try to remember why.

    Trust
    Danner - Even with a scum read on me, I can see their reasoning, I see danner as one that has been contributing to the game consistently. This is a great help to town. Calling out others in their flawed reads has been getting some more discussion going on and allowing town to pull information and make some good early lynches. Leaning town.

    Reticence - I see you very similarly to danner. And in fact my list has modified throughout the game (if only i remembered to bring my laptop on this trip). Other then my early call out of you, not what Ive seen in previous games, I can see you logic and reasoning. Its helping to drive the game and generate conversation. leaning town.

    Im also leaning town on dupti and listo. But as said above on the distrust list, Id have to look back and figure out why I have them there.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Reticence You were on my radar early, d1 as of posting the list. You seemed a little off from how I remember you playing. My view has since changed on you. I completely forgot taking a look at votes and where people were on the leading train when I was making that list. Ive adjusted my note taking for the game to reflect some of the stuff that people have pointed out or I have missed.

  7. #787
    Quote Originally Posted by shirokitsune View Post
    snip.
    I mean you wrote this whole paragraph trying to prove how I'm not contributing but then you add how I'm using personal bias to artificially inflate not only myself but potentially other players contributions in the list. Guess what, once again that would construe what a trust list is and be equated to contribution.

    Listen Shiro, I would care a lot more about your opinion if instead of trying to tear shit apart you just took me up on my previous offer and gave me a way to help improve the way I do my list. You want to sit there and say you believe only 6 of my posts consist of contribution, alright cool. Why?

    You keep calling me scummy and saying that my list is corrupt because I'm hacking it to give my team the best look I can. Alright cool, Who am I artificially inflating? Because you can say me all you want but I did the exact same thing for myself that I did for everyone. Responses to in game content are generally a +1 unless they veer away from the game. Hell I was even nice enough to not down grade peoples scores because they wished Cur luck or cheered on her news. Because technically none of that is game related I just didn't want to be an ass.

    But I digress I would be fascinated to know who is on my "Team" this game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Reticence View Post
    I would also point out that Virothe's vote on Allowyn was very early, at a time when I don't think she was under any threat of being lynched. I would not give Virothe too much town-cred for that vote, as he could just as easily have been discarding his vote and/or trying to pick up a few townie points in the process.
    Yes it was early, I voted because she had not posted and than I didn't unvote because "Getting Dicked" is not a good enough reason to me for abandoning the thread. I also again didn't like how she apparently had read enough of the game to have an opinion on people, but was still calling events prior "Mostly Fluff". So I didn't unvote, then when I came back to check the thread her wagon was being discussed and I didn't feel I had anything to add. I checked again saw she had been lynched and was scum and I was like... Cool beans.

    I'm always more than willing to give my opinion on people in this thread, but I don't do it unless asked or unless I feel it has merit above whats already been added. It's what keeps me elusive and always has. Not my fault you clowns haven't bothered to talk to me.

  8. #788
    @Reticence, not entirely sure yet.
    @Marack, please explain the listo read.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh and Ret, as for the listo thing it's hard to explain. I liked the way he said it.

    - - - Updated - - -
    @Danner, should I keep my vote on Kryll?

  9. #789
    Deleted
    Pranab Mukherjee, President of India was listening to the delegates argue, or rather the lack of argument since it appeared to be a very boring day at the UN. However the day was about to get more exciting. For thousands of miles in the air, a large amount of cattle were being transported from Ireland to China (because Ireland has the best cows) when a few got loose and managed to make their escape. However their escape was short lived as they crashed through the roof of the UN, crushing Pranab Mukherjee.

    Pranab Mukherjee - President of India (an NPC) - has been crushed by a cow on Day 4

    Vote Count:
    Virothe (1) - shirokitsune (#736),
    Kryllian (4) - Danner (#740), Dupti (#747), Anakso (#772), Graeham (#780),
    Danner (1) - Kryllian (#760)
    Marack (1) - Reticence (#783)

    With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. I have updated the front post and the end of Day 3 post with an official vote count.


  10. #790
    Fyi senna is doing better. I'm going back to the hospital in a few hours if you want me to carry any messages along.

  11. #791
    Moderator Crissi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shirokitsune View Post
    I understand that there is a lurker problem and that Virothe is trying to fix it. But you can't fix the lurker problem by effectively lurking yourself. Like I said, using the criteria Virothe listed, I counted 6 posts out of the 38 they had done as contribution. We're edging on into post #800 and only 6 statements that people could try to use to base reads off of them on?
    I'm seeing a bit more than 6 personally. Of course D3 was taken over by Cruelle the jesters pyrotechnics so that was its own weirdness. I just think harping on the list itself is rather a pointless distraction, since it's just getting Virothe to talk more about the list.

    Anyways I think @listo95 needs some better explanation. Listo: I read the 608 response to why vote shiro and that you think just using that voting record is dumb. I don't think that's just it. Looking at the reasons of the voters, Kryllians reasons were a gut feel but yet used the same gut feel to label Allow more trusting too. Dupti a vote was just looked like a day starter. You just kinda hoped on and that was that, even though both Allow and shiro were being talked about. You don't look as bad as Kryllian does right now but that's not really a plus since its still kinda sketchy. Also clarification: 763 you said train that is non existent. Speaking of shiro? Because I'd certainly be confused how one day it's legit (which implies movement with decent reasons) and the next day say non existent ( which implies the opposite).

    I'll try to be back tonight but pro tip: summer flu / cold suck eggs and my doctors are useless!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh! Tell Senna I hope she gets better soon! With hugs and moon healings and stuff like that.

  12. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by dupti View Post
    - - - Updated - - -
    @Danner, should I keep my vote on Kryll?
    The longer Kryllian takes to answer that question, the stronger the answer is IMO yes.
    He's my preferred lynch for today ever since Cruelle didn't manage to kill him.
    The last 21 hours of waiting haven't really helped that to change.

    That said, he might be able to persuade me.
    His reply is something I anticipate eagerly.

    Ultimately, you should make up your own mind in the matter.
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  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Virothe View Post
    Yes it was early, I voted because she had not posted and than I didn't unvote because "Getting Dicked" is not a good enough reason to me for abandoning the thread. I also again didn't like how she apparently had read enough of the game to have an opinion on people, but was still calling events prior "Mostly Fluff". So I didn't unvote, then when I came back to check the thread her wagon was being discussed and I didn't feel I had anything to add. I checked again saw she had been lynched and was scum and I was like... Cool beans.
    Sure. I didn't say you didn't give reasons for voting her, or that those reasons weren't valid. All I said was that she wasn't in any real danger at the time, and to not award you too many town-credits for that alone.

  14. #794
    Blademaster Marack's Avatar
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    @dupti I dont have my full notes and dont have time to look back through the thread right now to explain my read on listo. I have a small spreadsheet that im trying to sue while im out of town visiting friends. Ill be home around the end of N4. Provided people dont push me today or kill me tonight, Ill be able to provide more information on my reads.

    All that being said. Im able to periodically check and post while visiting some friends. Trying to not be a dick and spend more time then required on the computer while hanging out with them.

  15. #795

  16. #796
    Stood in the Fire listo95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    I'm seeing a bit more than 6 personally. Of course D3 was taken over by Cruelle the jesters pyrotechnics so that was its own weirdness. I just think harping on the list itself is rather a pointless distraction, since it's just getting Virothe to talk more about the list.

    Anyways I think @listo95 needs some better explanation. Listo: I read the 608 response to why vote shiro and that you think just using that voting record is dumb. I don't think that's just it. Looking at the reasons of the voters, Kryllians reasons were a gut feel but yet used the same gut feel to label Allow more trusting too. Dupti a vote was just looked like a day starter. You just kinda hoped on and that was that, even though both Allow and shiro were being talked about. You don't look as bad as Kryllian does right now but that's not really a plus since its still kinda sketchy. Also clarification: 763 you said train that is non existent. Speaking of shiro? Because I'd certainly be confused how one day it's legit (which implies movement with decent reasons) and the next day say non existent ( which implies the opposite).

    I'll try to be back tonight but pro tip: summer flu / cold suck eggs and my doctors are useless!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh! Tell Senna I hope she gets better soon! With hugs and moon healings and stuff like that.
    Okay I thik you are a little confused due to the illness. In that post I was saying I voted Shiro because I believed his train would generate information for town and it was between that and Jynx I believe during that time before I left. When I left Allow was at 1 vote, I honestly did not expect people to switch to her because it may have been getting talked about but no one was switching to that until dupti/Ret moved over.

  17. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Virothe View Post
    I'm always more than willing to give my opinion on people in this thread, but I don't do it unless asked or unless I feel it has merit above whats already been added. It's what keeps me elusive and always has. Not my fault you clowns haven't bothered to talk to me.
    If we have to ask you to weigh in after this long, I'm keeping you on my scum list indefinitely.

    Let's try this again.

    @virothe Contribution request: Please explain your opinions trust/distrust whatsoeverhaveyou for the remaining people alive in this game and reasons of.

    Because right now I certainly believe you're on a team and I certainly believe it ISN'T town.

  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by shirokitsune View Post
    If we have to ask you to weigh in after this long, I'm keeping you on my scum list indefinitely.

    Let's try this again.

    @virothe Contribution request: Please explain your opinions trust/distrust whatsoeverhaveyou for the remaining people alive in this game and reasons of.

    Because right now I certainly believe you're on a team and I certainly believe it ISN'T town.
    Nah, I asked you a question first. You tell me who on my list I've been artificially inflating the results of, and give me a rundown on how 6 of my posts are contribution as well as a way to fix my list because clearly you have all the answers and are the smartest person here. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reticence View Post
    Sure. I didn't say you didn't give reasons for voting her, or that those reasons weren't valid. All I said was that she wasn't in any real danger at the time, and to not award you too many town-credits for that alone.
    I understood that, But I didn't know what else to reply and I felt I should at least acknowledge your statement somehow. I guess it's also a way to express some frustration as well as I feel I've been a bit avoided this game, Dupti and Crackle were asking people questions left and right and yet I feel like for some reason I've been neglected or ignored. Not a big deal, it's let me play the game how I want. But it leads to interesting scenarios like this where my biggest flaw in the game is just that you're finding it hard to get an adequate read on me.

  19. #799
    Blademaster Kryllian's Avatar
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    Hope everyone had a good weekend. I think I’m pinging everyone who pinged in one post

    @Danner – I’m done trying to explain my thought process to you. It’s my first time playing doc and Ok I guess I screwed it up. I wasn’t thinking 17 turns ahead I was playing a short game and talking myself out of what I think I should do. I didn’t play it like you would have but hey we’re human and make mistakes. The biggest difference is I’m not going to beat myself up when I make a mistake like you tend to and I’m not going to let you mess with my mind and confidence in this game anymore.

    My trying to convince of my role and town status doesn’t matter because you have already said that you’re never going to believe me. If I don’t get lynched today, Scum will do one of two things: go for me tonight to get rid of me or keep me around a little longer knowing that you’re going to keep gunning for me and eventually have your way and town will have done their job for them. Even when I flip town and you see I’m the doc you’re just going to write it off as “it’s Kryllians fault for playing so bad don’t blame me for getting him lynched!”. So I’m done with you. I don’t think you’re scum though so I’ll remove my vote now that I’ve enjoyed a nice weekend away from the game and cooled off.

    Unvote
    @Xanjori – Why didn’t I vote for Cruelle? I was leaning towards the fact that I thought he was a bomb over a joker or scum. If he was the pumpkin thing he was taking me with her anyway. If he was a bomb I wasn’t going to risk that. See my post #694 where I actually suggested that the minimum number of people needed to lynch him vote and everyone else abstain so that if he is a bomb he take as few people with him as possible.
    @Reticence – Why did I vote for Danner and say I thought he was acting scummy? Because I had actually forgotten about that Crackle post. Outside of a cops confirmation of innocence I do think the way he’s been fixated on me is scummy. When Crackle posted that earlier I made a mental note to read through his post and look through to see who he was referring to and forgot until you brought it up again. Granted he didn’t explicitly say he investigated him and he turned up innocent but there was enough there to hint at it. That’s the main reason I took my vote off him today.
    @dethmourne – Give Senna my best. Tell her I’m hoping for a speedy recovery so she comes back soon!

  20. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by dethmourne View Post
    Fyi senna is doing better. I'm going back to the hospital in a few hours if you want me to carry any messages along.
    Please send her my regards and let her know that I'm thinking of her!

    @Reticence: As far as Anakso goes it's more of a hunch and a concern based on how previous games have played out. I think it's important to ensure that players such as Listo and Anakso don't 'cruise by' without pressure until the mid/late game when the stakes are much higher.

    In regards to you, I'm actually not highly suspicious of you - it's more of a 'concern' that I figured was worth throwing in with the others. I'll admit I have a hard time reading you which certainly plays into it. For what it's worth you're the player in my list who I think is less likely to be scum.

    At any rate I think I'm going to:

    Unvote
    Vote: Marack


    I'm still happy to switch back to Kryllian though if he's telling the truth it's likely scum will kill him and since it appears that we have a vigilante it may be worth letting them deal with him if they deem him suspicious enough to target. For Marack he's felt a bit 'off' to me as mentioned earlier. He also spoke up in defence of Allowyn listing her as someone he trusted which...struck me as odd. At the very least I'd rather not have today only result in Kryllian being lynched - I think there's good reasons to push for a claim from Marack.

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