Fury Legion Discussion

[Archimtiros]

Have you managed to quantify any of the haste stuff? Simcraft seems to like me sitting at an even 20% according to reforge plots (before Worldbreaker's obviously) compared to anything else. When we're in the realm of 2% dps differences it might just be splitting hairs though.

I'm testing with a variety of gear sets right now. From what I've extrapolated so far, there's a lot of disparity between what stat weights say and what reforge plots show.
For reference, in simple terms:

• Stat weights are what happens when you add/remove an amount of the stat without changing any other gear. Obviously this is somewhat unrealistic, unless you're talking about adding gems/enchants/food.
• Reforge plots shows the relationship between dropping one stat for another. For example, what happens when you trade Mastery for Haste and vise-versa. This is more realistic in terms of changing pieces of gear which have different stats. Note this only compares the two secondary stats in question, so it doesn't take into account one item being a higher ilvl than the other.

Between 15 and 25% Haste (on gear, not including trinket), Haste and Mastery are pretty dynamic and need to be balanced.

As you can see, going in either direction results in minor gains followed by major losses. This doesn't mean either stat is bad, it simply means that you don't want to give up large amounts of one for the other, the key is balance. In short: Stat weights lie.

This is an issue, as simply looking at stat weights will make you think that one is significantly better than the other, but as soon as you make that change, the relationship will reverse. This makes them effectively equal, as dropping one is always going to make the other better, but the kicker is that the highs and lows are within <1k DPS of each other (that's ~0.5%), so it really isn't worth trying to min/max, I don't care how "I wanna be best" you think it'll make you.

Haste is still almost always better than Crit though, so it doesn't mean you should stop getting haste, you just shouldn't trade Haste for Mastery or Mastery for Haste between those two values.

So the guidelines I'm going to stick with are (assuming any level of class trinket, but not including haste gained from it):
Haste to ~18% > Mastery = Haste to 25% > Crit to 30% > Vers > Crit beyond 30% > Haste beyond 25%
There are probably future soft caps for Haste and Crit, but they're unfeasible due to gear limitations, to include foreseeable Legion content.

Remember what I wrote above about stat weights though; they lie. If you have Haste and Crit at 18%, you might see Crit weighted higher than Haste, but that doesn't mean you should drop Haste to get more of it. In reality, the relationship probably looks something like this:


Too much reading, just tell me what to do!

• Haste to 18%, then focus on Mastery and Crit (to 30%), and letting your Haste increase along the way.
• If you're already beyond those points, which most Mythic geared players currently are, continue pushing Mastery and Haste. Once Haste is up to 25%, look for more Mastery and Versatility.
• When analyzing these plots and assessing changes, remember that minor gains/losses are just that: minor. The nice thing about these convoluted relationships with our stats is that just about everything is good, so in practice, ilvl is the biggest determining factor.

[Artunias]

Not sure if this was mentioned already but they nerfed Kazzalax Legendary Cloak. Now 1% damage and healing per stack, but stacks up to 5 times.

[arboachg]

I've been seeing a lot of people mention that they switched back to Maul of Tyranny for more haste. What I'm trying to find out is, should I switch back to mine (Heroic WF - 731 ilvl) if I managed to reach 17.5% haste w/ gems and enchants and already have my class trinket? Armory link is in the sig.

Also, as with my OH Calamity's Edge, my neck has a gem slot with a 75 haste gem. Would my mythic version of the same neck (w/ no gem slot) be better? Barring the haste scaling bug mentioned earlier, the gain wearing the mythic neck would be 28 str, 16 crit, and 22 haste over the base version, but I'm losing out on a 75 haste gem.

[Deleted]

Hi, I have a question about opening rotation.
According to icy-veins guide, you should start with charge, then DR (avatar, ring.. etc), then BC+bloodthirst (guaranteed enrage) and then continue with normal rotation. However my battle cry almost always expires before I manage to gather enough rage for rampage, which is kind of a waste in my opinion. I have 40% haste with class trinket (which doesn't matter during opening as you start with no stacks) and single target talent build recommended by icy veins. Am I missing something? Wouldn't it be better to use 1 bloodthirst (or maybe even add one raging) without guaranteed crit and then use battle cry to guarantee rampage crit?

BT > RB > DR > Rekt BT > RB > Ramp > BT/WB Proc ... should net you the best results any day of the week, regardless of what IcyVeins states.

[Archimtiros]

BT > RB > DR > Rekt BT > RB > Ramp > BT/WB Proc ... should net you the best results any day of the week, regardless of what IcyVeins states.

Not always, and the difference is so minor that it isn't even worth getting into. For one, it disregards early Wrecking Ball procs, which are likely to happen on the pull, and you don't really want to delay it 4 GCDs for Reck, using it last there will also cause some of its damage to fall out of cooldowns unless you have really high haste, and possibly even then, because it doesn't deal damage instantly and Rampage has a set GCD; for another Heroism is most often used on pull, and should easily net you enough rage to put Rampage into Reck, if it isn't already. That said, I've actually been discovering that it's better to purposefully delay Rampage, even with rage capping, until Enrage falls, rather than using it for damage, so while using it during Reck might lead to higher burst damage within your opener, it proves to be a loss in the long run.

Talent choices also come into play, as having Endless Rage/Inner Rage/Frenzy/Carnage or not will affect the ideal opener, obviously it isn't worth writing a separate opener for every possible variable, as it doesn't make a large enough difference to really matter. There are a lot of technicalities to making the "best" opener, but the point remains the same: Stack your CDs, get Enraged, use abilties.

[Sethanor]

Not always, and the difference is so minor that it isn't even worth getting into. For one, it disregards early Wrecking Ball procs, which are likely to happen on the pull, and you don't really want to delay it 4 GCDs for Reck, using it last there will also cause some of its damage to fall out of cooldowns unless you have really high haste, and possibly even then, because it doesn't deal damage instantly and Rampage has a set GCD; for another Heroism is most often used on pull, and should easily net you enough rage to put Rampage into Reck, if it isn't already. That said, I've actually been discovering that it's better to purposefully delay Rampage, even with rage capping, until Enrage falls, rather than using it for damage, so while using it during Reck might lead to higher burst damage within your opener, it proves to be a loss in the long run.

Talent choices also come into play, as having Endless Rage/Inner Rage/Frenzy/Carnage or not will affect the ideal opener, obviously it isn't worth writing a separate opener for every possible variable, as it doesn't make a large enough difference to really matter. There are a lot of technicalities to making the "best" opener, but the point remains the same: Stack your CDs, get Enraged, use abilties.

i second that... delaying rampage for enrage-management instead of just pushing dmg makes the rotation feel less random and more consistent (also lets you time stuff better).
dps-difference is probably too small to matter or might even be a net gain to have better enrage management

[Dungeonravor]

@Archimtiros, I see allot of people dropping 4 set is it that much of a DPS increase to just drop it and go for Haste/Crit Pants? And also see them running Mark of the thunderlord.

[gruxxar]

That said, I've actually been discovering that it's better to purposefully delay Rampage, even with rage capping, until Enrage falls, rather than using it for damage, so while using it during Reck might lead to higher burst damage within your opener, it proves to be a loss in the long run.

That seems odd though, considering you may delay BT/RB and lose usage of those. Let's say you Crit with BT and use RB after that. Now you have Enrage uptime left and let's say you have enough rage to Rampage. In your case you'd use 1 furious slash first & then rampage to maximize Enrage uptime, right? Atm i was using BT - RB - Rampage - BT - RB in that same scenario but might give it a go.

I mean, my old way kinda made more sense (to me) to ensure more BT usage for guaranteed rage and potential enrage elongation.

[cryface]

Hey, was wondering if Battle Cry give us 100% crit as a whole or 100% of our crit stats?

The reason I am asking this is because there are instances where my Bloodthirst did not enrage me after I Battle Cry and then Bloodthirst. Is this a known bug? Or did I misinterpret the 100% crit chance?

Thanks for the clarification anyone ..

[Sethanor]

That seems odd though, considering you may delay BT/RB and lose usage of those. Let's say you Crit with BT and use RB after that. Now you have Enrage uptime left and let's say you have enough rage to Rampage. In your case you'd use 1 furious slash first & then rampage to maximize Enrage uptime, right? Atm i was using BT - RB - Rampage - BT - RB in that same scenario but might give it a go.

I mean, my old way kinda made more sense (to me) to ensure more BT usage for guaranteed rage and potential enrage elongation.

in that case you would delay it even more for another BT and RB ... only time you use it is if you have been capped for at least 2-3 gcds and are still enraged cause BT luck-streak... then you just overwrite enrage and keep going from there.

its hard to explain on paper, but it works out pretty well.

basically what this does is: gives you more control over enrage-uptime, cd management and encounter specific dmg phases.
you have to get a good feeling for when to cap and when not to and i'd say its an experience thing. another warrior i know just played his for a couple of months now and he cant get it right and always loses quite a lot of dmg.

Hey, was wondering if Battle Cry give us 100% crit as a whole or 100% of our crit stats?

The reason I am asking this is because there are instances where my Bloodthirst did not enrage me after I Battle Cry and then Bloodthirst. Is this a known bug? Or did I misinterpret the 100% crit chance?

Thanks for the clarification anyone ..

it should be 100% flat crit-chance. maybe you are using BT too early or something like that

[gruxxar]

in that case you would delay it even more for another BT and RB ... only time you use it is if you have been capped for at least 2-3 gcds and are still enraged cause BT luck-streak... then you just overwrite enrage and keep going from there.

its hard to explain on paper, but it works out pretty well.

basically what this does is: gives you more control over enrage-uptime, cd management and encounter specific dmg phases.
you have to get a good feeling for when to cap and when not to and i'd say its an experience thing. another warrior i know just played his for a couple of months now and he cant get it right and always loses quite a lot of dmg.

I see, so you basically go at it with a 'non-rampage' rotation untill you lose enrage buff and have no BT coming up OR you have been ragecapped for a few gcd's if i understand you correctly.

Hey, was wondering if Battle Cry give us 100% crit as a whole or 100% of our crit stats?

The reason I am asking this is because there are instances where my Bloodthirst did not enrage me after I Battle Cry and then Bloodthirst. Is this a known bug? Or did I misinterpret the 100% crit chance?

Thanks for the clarification anyone ..

I'd swear I wasn't perhaps looking correctly at my screen but I think I've seen this happen too.

[Deleted]

Meat Cleaver'd Bloodthirst does not proc Enrage if it crits a non-main target. Was that bug reported already?

[Sethanor]

I see, so you basically go at it with a 'non-rampage' rotation untill you lose enrage buff and have no BT coming up OR you have been ragecapped for a few gcd's if i understand you correctly.

yeah basically, it really depends a lot on the situation, but thats just fury in general -> splitsecond choices all the time
it feels wrong at first, but after you played it a while, it starts making the whole rotation more fluid, will need to do some sims on the actual dps-impact but i guess archi is already on that :P

also just to mention it, im doing this with the following talents: 2x1x333 (x = whatever talent in that row, doesnt matter)
this would probably also work with massacre instead of carnage, but i havent tested that yet as most of the bosses die so fast that i'd rather have a smooth rotation throughout than a really short execute rotation (i also ignore execute for the most part while using carnage... i press execute less than FS and i barely touch FS as is)

Meat Cleaver'd Bloodthirst does not proc Enrage if it crits a non-main target. Was that bug reported already?

seems like intended to me from what we've seen from blizz for a while...
would probably be op if every BT hit would enrage. you would also get a ton more rage from this (like hitting 5 targets with BT, getting lets say 4 crits which cause 4 enrages which equals 40 rage just from that... doesnt seem like thats gonna happen)

[Deleted]

Hey, was wondering if Battle Cry give us 100% crit as a whole or 100% of our crit stats?

The reason I am asking this is because there are instances where my Bloodthirst did not enrage me after I Battle Cry and then Bloodthirst. Is this a known bug? Or did I misinterpret the 100% crit chance?

Thanks for the clarification anyone ..

This definitely happens. I experienced it quite often on the beta and thought it might be due to the high ping, but it has happened a few times on live as well. You'd think the 3% crit suppression shouldn't be an issue with 130% crit but it still happens every now and then and it's frustrating when it does.

[Deleted]

I wonder what you guys think of this, a guildie of mine brought this up.

He thinks fury wariors will be an unwanted class in raids because they are too much of a strain on healers, since they take a hella lot more damage at times due to their abilities.

That doesnt sound too fun.

[Sethanor]

i personally hope they retune it a bit ... 30% seems a bit much and warpaint is too little.

but the bigger problem i see is that our only defensive cooldown is really weak and barely counters the increased dmg taken which is meh

[Deleted]

I wonder what you guys think of this, a guildie of mine brought this up.

He thinks fury wariors will be an unwanted class in raids because they are too much of a strain on healers, since they take a hella lot more damage at times due to their abilities.

That doesnt sound too fun.

Not this bullshit again, maybe you should check how much you heal YOURSELF too. Im healing half the amount Im getting damage, that means im healing myself more than I take additional damage.
With Legendaries and traits and high haste lvls im pretty sure fury selfheal will be nerfed even further, because it will be ridiculously strong.

[Hoodzilla]

Not this bullshit again, maybe you should check how much you heal YOURSELF too. Im healing half the amount Im getting damage, that means im healing myself more than I take additional damage.
With Legendaries and traits and high haste lvls im pretty sure fury selfheal will be nerfed even further, because it will be ridiculously strong.

SHH, dont let them know

[Sethanor]

fucking balancing for legendaries before even getting a single one ... THATs the usual crap we get, but yeah, the self-heal will turn out ok-ish, allthough i hope legion bosses are designed around only having one "minor" defense cooldown, cause hfc right now is sometimes pretty rough

[Deleted]

fucking balancing for legendaries before even getting a single one ... THATs the usual crap we get, but yeah, the self-heal will turn out ok-ish, allthough i hope legion bosses are designed around only having one "minor" defense cooldown, cause hfc right now is sometimes pretty rough

it makes no sense to balance around dead content. and hfc is nowhere next to "rough" right now.