[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[bicycle]

From what I've picked up in raids, threat is basically a joke now. You want to make the boss switch targets and that's all the depth there is. Tanks do enough dps on AoE that threat there is a joke as well.

Threat has only existed between tanks for a while now. DPS pulling off a tank simply isn't a thing these days.

[Deleted]

Uh. Is the Mastery - Block conversion bugged, or is the character sheet bugged?

Mastery is 19,88%, Block Chance is 16.99%

Mastery: Increases your chance to block melee attacks by 19%

With 0 Mastery (8% base), I have 10% Block Chance.



Edit: Read back a bit and did a calculation someone linked in a different thread. Even using that, to calculate my block chance in a dual roll system, it still isn't correct and matching the char sheet Mastery and Block Chance.

[Won7on]

Got some questions about BH. Could test myself but... lazy.

1) Is the debuff consumed if you parry/dodge the hit?

2) Can the debuff be applied multiple times by the same cast? So, enemy is hit and debuffed, swings (consuming the debuff), then hit and debuffed again.

[Deleted]

Got some questions about BH.

1) No

2) Yes

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

There was so much drama in so many threads about how Blizz was going to ruin tanking, but after a weekend (my weekend is Fri-Sat) or tanking HFC, mythic dungeons, and TW... I have to hand it to them. I am having a blast on all my tanks - DK, Bear, and Paladin. They are all different but all engaging and fun to play. I love the new special effects. I love that there are some interesting choices to make among talents, and I haven't even gotten to my off-specs yet.

- - - Updated - - -

Has anyone been able to measure the diminishing returns of Last Defender? So we can truly judge how it compares to the other talents on its tier? My biggest challenge in TW this weekend was when someone pulled extra packs of mobs, and I figure this might be the case in early days of Legion as well. It would be nice to know how much buff I’m actually getting with this talent.

[celinamuna]

Has anyone been able to measure the diminishing returns of Last Defender? So we can truly judge how it compares to the other talents on its tier? My biggest challenge in TW this weekend was when someone pulled extra packs of mobs, and I figure this might be the case in early days of Legion as well. It would be nice to know how much buff I’m actually getting with this talent.

1-0.97^n
10char

[Rewyn]

More than a few people in my guild have been telling me to consider swapping to DH for Legion instead of my pandaria mainstay (I skipped most of warlords). Is there a clear power gap between the two in early legion or is it just an effect of fotm?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

[QUOTE=celinamuna;41544486]1

Thanks! Think this will be my mainstay for the moment. Having zero trouble on bosses, where everything feels organized. It's only the occasional messy trash pull that gets challenging.

[Deleted]

There was so much drama in so many threads about how Blizz was going to ruin tanking, but after a weekend (my weekend is Fri-Sat) or tanking HFC, mythic dungeons, and TW... I have to hand it to them. I am having a blast on all my tanks - DK, Bear, and Paladin. They are all different but all engaging and fun to play. I love the new special effects. I love that there are some interesting choices to make among talents, and I haven't even gotten to my off-specs yet.

The prepatch has run havoc on my poor laptop and I'm unable to raid at the moment (massive FPS drops due to new lowest-level effects and inability to turn things like combat text off) so I haven't played around with it much. That being said, what I have done feels...really strange. Half the time I'm engaged and immersed in what I'm doing, and then as soon as I've got a good Consec placement with AM/Sera lined up, I sit around and wait for something to happen. There's no real sense of accomplishment in playing well or utilizing everything in my toolkit, as the rewards feel akin to, "you're not dead." The rewards for doing so doesn't add up to the effort, not nearly as much as it has before.

Granted, I expect Legion to provide challenging content and thus alleviate this problem, but I'm unsure of where to measure my competence as a tank on this system, as after the basics there really is nothing else to do but min-max minimum points in survival or damage. I'm going to have to play around with this a lot before I can decide if I enjoy playing these new tanks or not.

[Gallahadd]

Granted, I expect Legion to provide challenging content and thus alleviate this problem

You're going to be disappointed. Everything I've seen so far from Legion raids has been SUPER boring for tanks. It's basic "Stand there and switch at X Stacks" type nonsense. If we're lucky we're doing one of the few "Adds spawn and need to be AoE'd quickly" fights.

[Veyloris]

There's no real sense of accomplishment in playing well or utilizing everything in my toolkit, as the rewards feel akin to, "you're not dead." The rewards for doing so doesn't add up to the effort, not nearly as much as it has before.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would take your experience on live with less than a grain of salt. Pre-patch feels very not fun to me, and I honestly have logged on for just raid.

On beta, OTOH, I've been playing at least a few hours a day and enjoying it. The addition of the artifact and properly balanced content makes the class interesting.

As far as what you said in your quote specifically, though: what rewards you about current paladin? I assume the answer is going to be 'doing lots of damage and not dying', but I could be wrong. If that is your answer, you're still looking at being able to achieve the same thing in Legion content. The class still doesn't just play itself.

[Deleted]

1-0.97^n
10char

Better than I expected.

Any idea what's happening with the discrepancy between mastery and block chance on the character sheet?

[Deleted]

You're going to be disappointed. Everything I've seen so far from Legion raids has been SUPER boring for tanks. It's basic "Stand there and switch at X Stacks" type nonsense. If we're lucky we're doing one of the few "Adds spawn and need to be AoE'd quickly" fights.

Probably, from what I've played and seen I don't have high hopes for it at the moment. I've already made the call to tank progression but DPS on farm, I cannot foresee a situation in which this tanking model keeps me engaged after progression is over.

Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, I would take your experience on live with less than a grain of salt. Pre-patch feels very not fun to me, and I honestly have logged on for just raid.

On beta, OTOH, I've been playing at least a few hours a day and enjoying it. The addition of the artifact and properly balanced content makes the class interesting.

As far as what you said in your quote specifically, though: what rewards you about current paladin? I assume the answer is going to be 'doing lots of damage and not dying', but I could be wrong. If that is your answer, you're still looking at being able to achieve the same thing in Legion content. The class still doesn't just play itself.

Pinch of salt taken, don't get me wrong I'm fully aware of how prepatch play feels like. Moving away from class-specifics, what I'm getting at here is that the tanking system has gone in a certain direction that doesn't offer much to me. I don't see engaging gameplay on the horizon in this system, but I will fully admit I fall into a different category of tank than what the Legion system is designed for.

It's quite simple, really. I enjoy trade-offs; being able to sacrifice survival (mitigation) for throughput (damage). Doing lots of damage and not dying is an oversimplification, that is not the case. What engages me is having the mechanical skill, class knowledge and mastery, and encounter understanding to tread the fine line between dying and living with minimal resource expenditure on survival and maximum on throughput.

Without limited resources that you can generate more of with skillful play, I will admit it kind of goes out of the window. That being said, any sort of multi-faceted gameplay would probably do it for me. Give me something to do besides the basics (movement, mitigation, pickup and swapping) that requires perfecting those basics and adapting how you play within them.

The class doesn't play itself. I don't either, in the same way a pilot doesn't steer an aircraft when it's on autopilot. I just monitor to ensure it's still on course. That's the most apt metaphor I can find, I think.

[Veyloris]

Fair enough.

I would be lying if I didn't say I missed SoO/ToT for some of the reasons you mentioned. I guess a more apt way of saying my point is "yes it's different, but the different might not be too bad". I get the sense a lot of people haven't given it an honest shot at enjoying it, but that's not to say everyone will enjoy it. (if all that makes sense).

With that said, I would LOVE being back to SoO/ToT gameplay. We're at a point where tanks do as much damage as DPS and in some cases more, which is literally exactly what ToT/SoO was, but it included the very fun mechanics that went in to vengeance whoring.

But that'll never happen again, because Blizznu.

[Deleted]

I guess a more apt way of saying my point is "yes it's different, but the different might not be too bad". I get the sense a lot of people haven't given it an honest shot at enjoying it, but that's not to say everyone will enjoy it. (if all that makes sense).

Probably. It is definitely worth noting that many factors come into play here, that the raid's been out for over a year, BiS sets on everyone, overgeared and nerfed content, etc. It is understandable that players aren't giving some classes a fair shot, and I don't expect a lot of higher tier players to give honest shots at enjoying some classes until Legion.

Personally, I'm at least going to give progression in T19 a proper shot on Prot, and judge the tanking model after that. If Prot is boring, I'll swap to Venge. If tanking is boring, I do kind of like Warrior...

[Adaren]

Has there been any thought given to whether it's worth banking BH charges until after you cast AS so that you can get a "full" GC proc? I haven't actually done much Prot Pally tanking on beta, so I'm not sure if we have the GCDs to afford that, but it could be a small DPS optimization, especially in cases where we're not actively tanking and BH is our only way to proc GC.

[celinamuna]

Better than I expected.

Any idea what's happening with the discrepancy between mastery and block chance on the character sheet?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post41509531
Best idea so far.

[Deleted]

Best idea so far.

Yeah I saw that, but Berith's post isn't accounting for something else happening. Doing a calculation for dual roll returns a value lower than the block chance displayed on the char sheet.

Whatever's going on, it's just unintuitive to have Mastery display an added block chance that isn't reflected in the "Block Chance" statistic. Some clarity from Blizzard would be nice.

[celinamuna]

Yeah I saw that, but Berith's post isn't accounting for something else happening. Doing a calculation for dual roll returns a value lower than the block chance displayed on the char sheet.

Whatever's going on, it's just unintuitive to have Mastery display an added block chance that isn't reflected in the "Block Chance" statistic. Some clarity from Blizzard would be nice.

Idk, i'm fairly confident that there's DR on block now and it's harsher than it was before legion, but iono.

[Zabbs]

If Block chance is being affected by Parry, couldn't you just take off a ton of crit gear and see your block chance increase? I do not see that happening on live. If I recall correctly, Parry has a footnote stating that the number displayed is "before diminishing returns". No clue why they would do half with DR and the other half without. Also, I think one of our hidden passives gives us a 50% multiplicative to our block chance. Why have something like that in the game if you will also have an incredibly harsh DR to block as well.