Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist?

[Deleted]

You are forgetting that Christians used to be very very entitled in middle age and committed horrible atrocities in the name of christ. It took them nearly 2000 years to adjust to progressive values and scientific advancements.

You conveniently forget that what people have done in the past isn't necessarily what Christ told them to do. Violence is quite strictly against Christ's teachings, although the grim reality of the world has always forced people to either fight or perish. (The conflict between killing and Christianity's teachings was, obviously, a well understood dilemma, and many knights and warriors were genuinely concerned about their soul's salvation.) Whereas Islam is entirely built on violence, jihad and conquest. Islam's fast expansion in the 7th and 8th century was greatly aided by the mere promise of loot and plunder to the warriors of Islam, causing many warlike tribes to join it for that specific reason.

[A Dark Knight]

Jesus didn't say kill the infidels.

neither did islam, what you read in a the quran was a command from go to go right now and fight, because islam was at war, it was not meant to be a rule at life long rule

[Acidbaron]

Don't know or care much about America. In England the influence of Christianity has almost completely gone. Sure there are a few rituals here and there but at best they're just quaint little things that only a minority of Christians bother with. Most Christians don't go past 'believing in God', they don't even go to church. Hell our last prime minister got ripped on for calling the country a 'Christian Country'.

Pretty sure an Atheist or whatever can become prime minister here too. I imagine it's the same for most of Europe.

I would not say most of Europe let me put it that way. In western Europe it reduced a lot of their influence. Although can a person become the nations political leader in Germany without being a christian? I have doubts there also the further south and east you go the even less likely it becomes.

You caring or not for america wasn't the point i was making you said it influence has waned, while it has it's still a very influential tool for a lot of people even in countries we deem modern.

As for the UK, those opposed to gay rights for a long time were also from that corner. Looked it up to simply see if i wasn't mixing up nations. Gay marriage only became a thing in the UK in 2013. So again this Christianity thing and losing it's power it's only something that is happening for in this century. France for example was also for a nation split on the whole gay marriage debate, again something that comes from a religious corner.

I wished you were right but religion is far from done.

[ParanoiD84]

Well Saladin army was made out of Soldiers, the Crusades were a tool and often use to give those convicted of crimes another chance, in other words a bunch of criminals.

Religion in both ends had very little to do with how merciful or cruel the groups are if you reduce it who was actually taking part.

Saladin lost alot of times and was nearly killed together with all his army at Montgisard facing a much smaller crusader force led by a 16 year old king. Richard never lost a battle against him either.

After Montgisard Saladin escaped on a racing camel, needing to spread lies in egypt that they won the battle in fear of being assassinated or loosing his support.

If Baldwin IV never died at young age from leprosy hattin would never have happened in the first place, that was just the mistake of one warhungry man leading all forces away from Jerusalem miles away from any water and reinforcements, many including the war council suggested that they stay in jerusalem where they could have easily defended but he wanted war.

And Saladin executed plenty of prisoners if you think otherwise i suggest reading some books.

And of course we have that if it where not for all the muslim advances into europe the crusade may never have happened in the first place, or shall i link tons of attacks by muslims against christian lands long before any crusade?

[Deleted]

This is a very vague question.

Religion in general, regardless of which Cult you choose, is not compatible with reality.

Of course not. But some religions are less harmful than others when it comes to dealing with reality.

People who just bundle up all religions into the same package, pretending that they are all the same, are generally either extremely ignorant, or then they do it knowingly to avoid handling some very uncomfortable, politically incorrect facts concerning the theological differences.

[Deleted]

Fundamentalist Islam can't even peacefully co-exist with Islam.

Same way Christian nuts like the Westboro Baptist Church can't peacefully co-exist with anybody that isn't equally nutty, be they atheists, muslims, jews or even moderate christians.

I know tons of Christians and atheists that are less fit to live in "Western society" than many of the muslims I know, and I know many muslims who take a lot of pride in making sure to comply with the country that took them in when their family was in trouble.

And yes, having actually studied the Quran, admittedly it does have a lot of violent passages. Same as all other religions. That's what reform is for: To make an ideology/religion less severe and let religious people serve their God in peace. And don't give me the shit about Islam being unable to reform. Everything can reform. 900 years ago Christian knights saw no problem riding into jewish villages and massacring the villagers. In fact it was their holy duty to avenge the death of Jesus! Just a few years ago, the Catholic Church's official stance was that homosexuals were destined to go to hell, and only now with the current pope has it even given ground on that. And even then it's just slightly, from "All homosexuals go to hell" to "Homosexuality is a sin, but homosexuals can be good people despite it"

By cherry picking what you do and don't talk about you can frame any ideology to seem crazy. Islam is not in itself peaceful or violent. It's up to the individual muslim to choose accordingly to their personal moral compass if they want to be peaceful or violent. Religion serves the mindset of the religious, not the other way. Violent people will bring violence into religion, and compassionate people will bring compassion into religion. Thus my Christianity can be peaceful and rational while my neighbour's Christianity can be bigoted and condescending.

So no, fundamentalism, no matter what ideology/religion, is not compatible with western society. But there are millions upon millions of moderate, peaceful muslims for whom peaceful coexistance with their surroundings is a natural, basic fact of life. Those people will adapt to the culture of the country they live in.

Also note that integration and assimilation are two different things. You can be an integrated part of society without assimilation.

[A Dark Knight]

i suggest reading some books.

i suggest reading different books

[ParanoiD84]

i suggest reading different books

Why? please tell me.

[May90]

Christianity had the room to grow away from that phase if it's life. Islam has never grown out of it's violence because it is a core tenant. It was born in and grew through violence. Islam is violence.

I don't think Christianity has changed significantly; Christian-based societies did. Even now, you can meet quite a lot of Christians with outdated views on many things.

Islam-based societies, however, are well behind in their development. It is not caused by Islam, it is caused by the societal processes in general.

As for violence... Well, two largest wars ever, world wars, were not started by Islam-based societies. Violence is violence, it depends not as much on religion as on people. Religious or not, people carry out wars for various reasons, usually selfish, with false pretense of wanting the best for society.

I suggest u read up on the Crusades because the Christians were the barbaric ones by a mile. Read up on Saladin and the Muslim army. They forgave and released thousands of captured crusaders whereas the Crusaders executed everyone in their path, women and children included.

But again, Saladin just had a very noble character. He definitely doesn't represent all Muslim warlords.

[Wildtree]

But ive been studying this stuff for a couple of decades now

I very much doubt that.
Not sure if you're even that old just yet, considering content and reasoning of your posts.
Everyone can make all kinds of claims online.

Every now and then we unmask people for that.
You sound like that guy a few days ago who claimed he had the magazine in his hand where some famous Trump quote came from.
A quote which was long debunked to be fake. lol

Anyway, if you would really have studied these things, we're talking about here, you would have long arrived on complete different causation.
You'd long know how this isn't about Islam vs Western Society.
You'd know that in some parts of our western world both live together for hundreds of years without problems.
You'd also know that the current situation has lick to do with historic evidence.
You'd know.. that there are other reasons, beneath that Islam vs West causing the situation.

[Acidbaron]

Saladin lost alot of times and was nearly killed together with all his army at Montgisard facing a much smaller crusader force led by a 16 year old king. Richard never lost a battle against him either.

After Montgisard Saladin escaped on a racing camel, needing to spread lies in egypt that they won the battle in fear of being assassinated or loosing his support.

If Baldwin IV never died at young age from leprosy hattin would never have happened in the first place, that was just the mistake of one warhungry man leading all forces away from Jerusalem miles away from any water and reinforcements, many including the war council suggested that they stay in jerusalem where they could have easily defended but he wanted war.

And Saladin executed plenty of prisoners if you think otherwise i suggest reading some books.

I fail to see your point other then for some personal reason trying to uplift the christian side and downplay the muslim side in an ancient old war, where neither population regardless of religious background benefited from.

I have no problem saying that both sides committed crimes, i do know the european christian army was heavy in terms of criminals, hence the raping, plundering, pillaging where ever they went, they were a god's gift for the Pope.

[Draco-Onis]

You conveniently forget that what people have done in the past isn't necessarily what Christ told them to do. Violence is quite strictly against Christ's teachings, although the grim reality of the world has always forced people to either fight or perish. (The conflict between killing and Christianity's teachings was, obviously, a well understood dilemma, and many knights and warriors were genuinely concerned about their soul's salvation.) Whereas Islam is entirely built on violence, jihad and conquest. Islam's fast expansion in the 7th and 8th century was greatly aided by the mere promise of loot and plunder to the warriors of Islam, causing many warlike tribes to join it for that specific reason.

The bible is filled with violence and passages about converting the non believers by any means necessary, you also forget the history of violence between Christians themselves (Protestants, Catholics and Baptists). The policy of the bible being open to interpretation and that the old testament being nothing more than historical reference is fairly recent. People used religion for conquest and gaining land Christians were not immune to that, they literally wrote the book on it.

[ParanoiD84]

I fail to see your point other then for some personal reason trying to uplift the christian side and downplay the muslim side in an ancient old war, where neither population regardless of religious background benefited from.

I have no problem saying that both sides committed crimes, i do know the european christian army was heavy in terms of criminals, hence the raping, plundering, pillaging where ever they went, they were a god's gift for the Pope.

No idea maby got abit carried away there but yeah both sides where no angels that's for sure.

[MacMathan]

I'll just give a simple answer, coming from a combat vet. No, there is no way that the two can co-exist. Some play the long game("coexist" and then convert) and others the short (terrorists and killing), but a core fundamental element of islam is to either convert or destroy all those who do not practice the islamic faith. So no, they will never be able to truly be a peace between the two, as the values are simply diametrically opposed.

[Deleted]

neither did islam, what you read in a the quran was a command from go to go right now and fight, because islam was at war, it was not meant to be a rule at life long rule

But it does.

It states that the only way to save infidels souls is to be killed by a believer (a muslim). It clearly states to kill all infidels in the name of Allah... but this is once a Fatwah has been announced. And dont forget that right now loads of Muslim religious leaders have announced exactly that.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

[Deleted]

neither did islam, what you read in a the quran was a command from go to go right now and fight, because islam was at war, it was not meant to be a rule at life long rule

Actually, the Koran quite strictly orders to kill everyone who refuse to submit to Islamic supremacy.

The ignorance level or people making these claims is such that they should stay away from any theological debates.

[Wildtree]

I'll just give a simple answer, coming from a combat vet

that's not an expertise position.

Some play the long game("coexist" and then convert)

Some play it a very long time then... like several hundreds of years...

- - - Updated - - -

But it does.

It states that the only way to save infidels souls is to be killed by a believer (a muslim). It clearly states to kill all infidels in the name of Allah... but this is once a Fatwah has been announced. And dont forget that right now loads of Muslim religious leaders have announced exactly that.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran)

We have that in the New Testament too. Was posted even pages earlier.
Come again..

[Deleted]

We have that in the New Testament too. Was posted even pages earlier.
Come again..

*facedesk*

Dude we are discussing Islam here and whether its compatible with Western Society... who gives a flying fukk whats written in the Bible, its utterly irrlevant to this discussion.

Im measuring Western LAWS against Muslim core principles.

The Old Testament is utterly irrelvant to that discussion.

If u want to say that all religions suck then ofc i will agree with you... but this thread isnt discussing that.

[Zecora]

Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist?

Of course it can, and it does today. There are milions of muslims in "western" countries who pay their taxes, raise their kids and contribute to society just like everyone else.

However, I suspect what you really wanted to ask is "Can Islam And Western Society Ever Peacefully Co-exist Without Any Violent Incidents Whatsoever?", and the answer there is probably "No, because muslims are people, and people come in all shades from great to horrible." So long as there is a loophole that allows for violence in the name of a faith, ideology or belief system, be it Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Atheism, Capitalism, Communism, Anarchism...you name it, someone will use it to justify their acts of violence and greed for power and wealth. At times it will be more prevalent, as it is with Islam now, because crazies inspire other crazies, but for the most part it is entirely possible for any religion that doesn't view human sacrifice or such as a neccessity, to peacefully coexist with a civillized society.

[Vilendor]

The core concept of islam is kill or conquer the infidels. If only 10% of the muslims are radical that means 150 million people want to kill us. Meanwhile that number in reality is closer to 40% and many of them are already in Europe. Do the math yourself