Mafia #72: Heads of State. Game Thread

[listo95]

I think I'll get behind the Marack train for info. At the very least anyone who has any sort of trust for me is usually because they are scum and are trying to buddy up to me... Especially this game since I know I am prolly very anti-town in my votes.

Vote: Marack

[Marack]

This puts me at 4 or 5. The fact that this being my 1st game, garnering this much suspicion... I'm happy. Needless to say I'm a VT. Vladimir Putin, president of Russia. My only ability is my vote and I win with town.

I understand how my reads have made me look. But gut feels and nothing definitive to provide more info has gotten me to a lot of people's suspicious/scum reads. I would not me a bad lynch for town. Keeps whatever TPR we have alive and our good vet townies here to scum hunt further. It also doesn't help that I won't be home til Tuesday where all my notes are.

[Crissi]

Soooo since it's almost 3am and I can't sleep, and when I finally do I'll likely iversleep the N4 deadline...

I can get behind a Marack lynch. As I posted a while ago, Kryllian likely dies N4 anyway from a NK if he saved himself N3. If he lives... I think that would further cement his scum status and can be lynched D5. I think this because I think a " he used his save on someone else N3 and thus can use it on himself N4" is unlikely. Possible, but unlikely with how he's played the doc role so far and the rather messy reveal.

As to Marack himself: with all the reads and gut feels, it would be a helpful piece of info. Although... Being happy as being read scum to me reads a bit bonkers. Listos reason in 801 is also bonkers. Which makes me hesitant, but if I believe in my 1st paragraph and Marack is the only other train, it's kinda the only logical choice at this point in time.

Vote Marack

[shirokitsune]

I'm a little concerned that it seems like the moment Marack states that they're going to be mostly away from the game and will try and get more information when they get back in, a bunch of people jump in to vote Marack?

Nah, I asked you a question first. You tell me who on my list I've been artificially inflating the results of, and give me a rundown on how 6 of my posts are contribution as well as a way to fix my list because clearly you have all the answers and are the smartest person here. Right?

Your list is a waste of my time due to the flaw I already mentioned. Your reactions to this have told me all I feel I need to know. You've gotten angry, insulting, and otherwise incomprehensibly untownlike to me in your actions. You complain that no one was involving you or asking you things, yet when directly asked you waved your hand and said "pfeh, no". As for who I think your team is? Well 3 of them (Catta, Allowyn, BF) are dead, so I figure it's you and maybe 1 or 2 others tops before a town victory is declared.

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I'm going to be out of touch myself for awhile. Will try and be back by deadline but am going to assume there's going to be a hammer before I will get back. At this time, even if Marack is a sensible, correct vote; I'm sticking on Virothe. Assuming I survive the night phase (honestly can't imagine why I wouldn't tbh) I will likely reopen my day voting on Virothe until and unless they give their reads/resonings on the surviving players. I just can't understand why a townie would be so reluctant to give a list of their reads.

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Forgot to add: I'll try and make it also my goal sometime D5, assuming I end up with a large enough block of unstructured free time, to do my own review of the living.

[Anakso]

When is the deadline? I'll switch to ensure a lynch if needed but not trusting this sudden Marack push.

[Graeham]

When is the deadline? I'll switch to ensure a lynch if needed but not trusting this sudden Marack push.

It's in just under 8 hours as of this post.

[Anakso]

Ah okay, I'll be in bed when that comes anyway, heading to bed shortly.

Just seems odd, everyone was so for a Kryll lynch yesterday even after his claim but now suddenly they're all against it.

[dupti]

Ah okay, I'll be in bed when that comes anyway, heading to bed shortly.

Just seems odd, everyone was so for a Kryll lynch yesterday even after his claim but now suddenly they're all against it.

Who is against it?

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And well yes, I don't really know what to think of the this wagon.

[Anakso]

Who is against it?

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And well yes, I don't really know what to think of the this wagon.

Satsu is at the very least. On my phone and can't be bothered quoting but page 39, his reply to me. Other than that I don't think anyone's explicitly said they're against it but voting a different train isn't the most for it thing I've ever seen.

[Reticence]

@Reticence: As far as Anakso goes it's more of a hunch and a concern based on how previous games have played out. I think it's important to ensure that players such as Listo and Anakso don't 'cruise by' without pressure until the mid/late game when the stakes are much higher.

How strong is this hunch? How strong is your opinion of the other three in your post? What do you think of the trains they've been on?

In regards to you, I'm actually not highly suspicious of you - it's more of a 'concern' that I figured was worth throwing in with the others. I'll admit I have a hard time reading you which certainly plays into it. For what it's worth you're the player in my list who I think is less likely to be scum.

What is that concern based on? Just my absence yesterday, your inability to read me, or something specific?

What do you think of my arguments and my votes? Are there any you disagree with?

And well yes, I don't really know what to think of the this wagon.

Very much agreed.

There is a surprising lack of resistance here, and I don't like the way people jumped on it. What was the word? Ah, yes. "Opportunistic".

All of that said, something about (#794) bothered the hell out of me. That's tempered a bit by (#786), but I don't feel great about him overall, either way.

@Danner, are you still set on Kryllian?

[Graeham]

@Reticence: Strong enough that - assuming Anakso and I are both alive tomorrow - I will very likely push for a claim. Assuming there's nothing else that pops up and requires immediate attention.

As far as my concerns regarding your posts go I like most of them - but like I said I struggle to read you and I'm worried that you're seeming a bit too 'Town' if they makes any sense? Two of the scum flips so far have been inactive players which will no doubt have dragged down the scum team's 'bite' quite a bit. With that in mind I could easily see one of the players seeming very 'Town' to actually be a vocal, active scum nudging things in a direction that benefits the remnants of their team.

Now that's not to say that it's you but I do wonder if you think there's any merit to that theory. It could just be a case of me overthinking things or being paranoid, admittedly. I don't tend to get into the voting patterns and such of players too heavily because I'm awful at keeping track of such things.

[dethmourne]

Sorry I haven't been active t this day, I've had a crazy few rl days. Don't like the Marack wagon much but I sint want to vote Kryllian today because he will either get killed or we can lynch him tomorrow.

I don't know what other wagons exist

[listo95]

This puts me at 4 or 5. The fact that this being my 1st game, garnering this much suspicion... I'm happy. Needless to say I'm a VT. Vladimir Putin, president of Russia. My only ability is my vote and I win with town.

I understand how my reads have made me look. But gut feels and nothing definitive to provide more info has gotten me to a lot of people's suspicious/scum reads. I would not me a bad lynch for town. Keeps whatever TPR we have alive and our good vet townies here to scum hunt further. It also doesn't help that I won't be home til Tuesday where all my notes are.

Hmm... I could see him being a VT to be honest... Then again that is all based on who my leader is...

[Danner]

@Danner, are you still set on Kryllian?

I was planning on chiming in at lunch, but it's now 17:30... guess I'm late! First day at work after my summer vacation, more hectic than I imagined.

Since Kryllian no longer wish to engage with me, I cannot really back off. There is doubt though. But if I am right about Kryllian and call it off, I will never forgive myself. Lynching a liar, even if that turns out to be the town doctor, and even if that costs us the game, that I can actually live with. It'll be a life lasting not many days and ending in violence - but nonetheless.

So let's look at the facts:
- Kryllian one way or another ends up being the lynch target, not entirely undeserved IMO.
- Kryllian lies to save his own butt. Whether town or scum I cannot say, because not everyone believes town shouldn't lie. Nonetheless; I lean scum.
- Kryllian is caught lying and changes his story as a result, claiming the most important TPR alive. This is a major scumtell in my book.
- His excuse for lying doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and is IMO contradictory to his claimed role of doctor.
- Attempts to get to be bottom of that contradiction was ignored for more than 20 hours before being dismissed with a "I cannot change your mind".

I cannot fully dismiss the views several has raised - that he's not actually been counterclaimed. That does count for something, thus my lingering doubt. But - no, I cannot drop this. My vote on Kryllian stays. For lying, and for being incredibly unhelpful in trying to get to the bottom of why. Out of everyone, he's the one I want to lynch the most. Way more than Graeham. Way more than Marack.

As for Marack, I agree with the impression that the Marack train may be incorrect. I stand by my earlier assessment, but the reaction to his current train is something I am less certain about. This feels... unopposed. Iether the scum are crayzy scared of defending him and/or actively throwing him to the wolves, or the Marack train is not the right one.

[dupti]

@Reticence, thoughts on Anakso?

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Hmm... I could see him being a VT to be honest... Then again that is all based on who my leader is...

Honestly what's the point of this post listo? If you think he might be telling the truth, why not push on someone else?

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Anyway, I want to lynch listo, Marack or Kryllian today.

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I also don't trust Xan but don't want to lynch him right now.

[listo95]

@Reticence, thoughts on Anakso?

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Honestly what's the point of this post listo? If you think he might be telling the truth, why not push on someone else?

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Anyway, I want to lynch listo, Marack or Kryllian today.

You know it may be the fact there is slightly over 3 hours left and thinly current trains are him and Kryllian. I honestly have no idea if he is telling the truth because we still have no idea how the leaders were separated. If you read it I said it could be believable based on my character. I'm willing to bet I'm one of if not the most evil leaders currently in the world and I know I'm town.

[Reticence]

@Reticence: Strong enough that - assuming Anakso and I are both alive tomorrow - I will very likely push for a claim. Assuming there's nothing else that pops up and requires immediate attention.

Alright. What about the other three?

As far as my concerns regarding your posts go I like most of them - but like I said I struggle to read you and I'm worried that you're seeming a bit too 'Town' if they makes any sense? Two of the scum flips so far have been inactive players which will no doubt have dragged down the scum team's 'bite' quite a bit. With that in mind I could easily see one of the players seeming very 'Town' to actually be a vocal, active scum nudging things in a direction that benefits the remnants of their team.

Now that's not to say that it's you but I do wonder if you think there's any merit to that theory. It could just be a case of me overthinking things or being paranoid, admittedly. I don't tend to get into the voting patterns and such of players too heavily because I'm awful at keeping track of such things.

I don't think it's an invalid theory in general, but I feel it's the sort of theory that must be tempered by voting patterns when you use it to read other players. If you don't use the evidence available to counterbalance your concerns at all, then you are, by definition, being paranoid.

I cannot fully dismiss the views several has raised - that he's not actually been counterclaimed. That does count for something, thus my lingering doubt. But - no, I cannot drop this. My vote on Kryllian stays. For lying, and for being incredibly unhelpful in trying to get to the bottom of why. Out of everyone, he's the one I want to lynch the most. Way more than Graeham. Way more than Marack.

Understood.

I don't want to actively dissuade you from this, as I don't really trust him or his claim, but I do have to question whether or not we should leave him for tomorrow if he isn't killed tonight. If he is the doctor, I suspect he protected himself last night, which means the mafia should be gunning for him now that Crackleslap is dead.

The counter-argument, of course, is that if he is the doctor they might leave him alive just to make us waste tomorrow's lynch, but in a back to basics game I can't help but think they can't really pass up the chance to murder a vulnerable doctor.

That said, I will certainly help you push this train through if we feel it is the best way forward.

As for Marack, I agree with the impression that the Marack train may be incorrect. I stand by my earlier assessment, but the reaction to his current train is something I am less certain about. This feels... unopposed. Iether the scum are crayzy scared of defending him and/or actively throwing him to the wolves, or the Marack train is not the right one.

This very accurately describes how I am feeling about this train right now.

@Reticence, thoughts on Anakso?

Generally distrustful. I don't recall specific posts that I dislike, so I currently have to chalk it up to my character read of him. He's reliably present, but I expect him to be stubborn and argumentative when he's town, and he's struck me as a little too amicable. I'll try to go back and reread him and give you something more concrete at my earliest convenience.

Anyway, I want to lynch listo, Marack or Kryllian today.

I am fine with all of these, as well. See my reply to Danner above re: Kryllian. Given the time we have left, we should probably reach a consensus and have people start moving votes.

I'm willing to bet I'm one of if not the most evil leaders currently in the world and I know I'm town.

I'm willing to bet that aside from Cruelle our characters have very little to do with our roles at all.

[listo95]

Pretty sure my role is exactly what it is due to my character... Besides the being evil as fuck part.

[Virothe]

I just can't understand why a townie would be so reluctant to give a list of their reads.

Anakso- Ana-k-so
Crissi - Cri-ssssssssssssi
Danner- D-ann-er
dethmourne- Deth-MOU-rne
dupti - D-up-tea
Graeham - Gray-Ham
Kryllian- Kry-lion
listo95- Listorine, Fresh breat for 95cents.
Marack - MARAK ISHTAR
Reticence - Reti-Cents-Gold.
SatsuBL - Sad tuba
shirokitsune - Giant ass clown.
Virothe - Vir-Oath
Xanjori - Xan-Jury still out

And that's how I read all the player names, That's what you wanted right?

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If he is the doctor, I suspect he protected himself last night, which means the mafia should be gunning for him now that Crackleslap is dead.

eh I'm a firm believer in the "Don't expect scum to do towns dirty work" line of thinking.

Only reason I would give a pass for today is lack of a counter-claim, and the fact that we've clearly had kills blocked. Unless scum can recruit traitors and can't recruit and kill on the same night, Which would mean we might not have any kills that have been blocked this game.

But without actually knowing that for a fact it leads me to want to believe we have a doc this game, and we're back to square one. Meh, idk.

The worst part though is this is just going to go back to this argument tomorrow though and get us no where, so I'm not sure if Lynching Marack is the best option or lynching Kryll just so we might salvage the next game day.

[shirokitsune]

Made it back in time... Whew..

So I currently see this as what we have

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(14 alive)

kryllian - danner, anakso
marack - reticence, dupti, graeham, listo, crissi
virothe - shiro

No Vote - Dethmourne, Marack, Satsu, Virothe, Xanjori
Recent unvote - Kryllian

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I still feel strongly that while Marack may be the correct play, I don't want to leap onto a wagon that just formed the moment someone said they will be unavailable.

Going to keep my vote of record on Virothe for this day phase.

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- Kryllian is caught lying and changes his story as a result, claiming the most important TPR alive. This is a major scumtell in my book.

Danner, I was reading up more on the kinds of roles and what they do etc from that site you linked earlier. It seemed to suggest that the value of the Doctor goes down after the cop dies. Or am I misreading your statement and it's "claiming the most important TPR remaining". I do get that a Doctor can still stop NKs and such but that it would be much harder to pick who to protect.

Also people seem to be giving Kryllian a lot of credit for stopping NKs. ie Kryllian said they protected themselves N1 assuming they'd be targeted. I'm failing to see what they would have done D1 that would have merited them being targetted. Especially since Arialla died N1. They also claim a protection of Crackle N2. And uggor died N2.

Are we so sure that there is a SK/Vig killing people and mafia isn't?

FoS Kryllian.