[Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Neudgae]

i know you are kind of the advocate for demon hunter tanks here and it's your baby but at the current state of the class no serious progression guild will take a DH over any of the other tanks. the self healing is not even noticeable and the incoming damage without demon spikes is brutal in raids and dungeons 8 and above.
lets be real here, you could call it a healing style tank like 5 builds ago but now its just underwhelming compared to the other tanks

no shit, serious guilds only play whatever is op, if it was op to run 20 combat rogues instead of a 2 tanks and some healers thats exactly what would get done.

[Munkky]

i know you are kind of the advocate for demon hunter tanks here and it's your baby but at the current state of the class no serious progression guild will take a DH over any of the other tanks. the self healing is not even noticeable and the incoming damage without demon spikes is brutal in raids and dungeons 8 and above.
lets be real here, you could call it a healing style tank like 5 builds ago but now its just underwhelming compared to the other tanks

I understand that we aren't the best tank. You can actually quote me from earlier today in DH discord saying that we are 5th best. I am not nieve enough to say we are the best by any means and never have I said that. Ever. If I were in a high enough guild that it mattered what tank I pick, then I wouldn't pick demon hunter tank. Just because we are last doesn't mean I can't still get the theory down for those of us still playing this tank because we enjoy it.

They question I was responding too was not whether or not we were the best, but simply a "state of the spec" to which I answered and not once did I mention belong amazing or OP or the best.

[the boar]

no shit, serious guilds only play whatever is op, if it was op to run 20 combat rogues instead of a 2 tanks and some healers thats exactly what would get done.

hehe, wasn't the first yogg0 kill with 19 or so warlocks?

[diggorey]

no shit, serious guilds only play whatever is op, if it was op to run 20 combat rogues instead of a 2 tanks and some healers thats exactly what would get done.

Rogues tanking Gruul, Locks tanking Leotheras...good ol'times

[Rewyn]

I understand that we aren't the best tank. You can actually quote me from earlier today in DH discord saying that we are 5th best. I am not nieve enough to say we are the best by any means and never have I said that. Ever. If I were in a high enough guild that it mattered what tank I pick, then I wouldn't pick demon hunter tank. Just because we are last doesn't mean I can't still get the theory down for those of us still playing this tank because we enjoy it.

They question I was responding too was not whether or not we were the best, but simply a "state of the spec" to which I answered and not once did I mention belong amazing or OP or the best.

Weirdly, everyone I've heard from is saying DH is the best legion tank atm. What are your order of five?

[Kaharon]

Is it really that bad as a vengeance DH right now? Will test the nighthold bosses later today and try both, vengeance and guardian, although I really like the playstyle of vengeance I can't get enough of the tankiness and self-heal (frenzied regen) the guardian has, it gets up to very crazy high levels of heal.

[Pruke]

@Munkky - You keep doing your thing, many of us appreciate it because we are lazy or don't know how

Personally, I think Blizzard will not allow it's shiny new class go in as the lowest ranked tank. But I do believe, they learned from the past and will not allow it to be OP as crap, since that will lead to nerfs and anger.

I'm in a progression guild, we do min-max some what and I am changing to a DH, because my raid team knows I will get it done.

Right now, it feels like people are basing the strength of tanks off of live, or off heroic geared tanks. I understand that, that is all there is. But I've played DH/DK/Guardian and they feel pretty similar. Not equal, no and Ill agree DH is not as smooth. I haven't had the time to run mythic+ but several of my guild mates have and they usually find they have a DH or Paladin tank and most times they have absolutely no problems, since the group knows how to play. They don't try to zerg pull like we do on live right now with mythic gear.

[Munkky]

A couple things.

We are considered the most "fun" tank by many, though that is subjective obviously.

The rankings are based off of raiding and dungeons in beta and have nothing to do with live.

We are decent in dungeons due to our healing and utility, but in raids things are different which is mainly why we are considered low. Still viable just lower on the totem pole.

The general rankings right now is roughly:
Bear >= dk = warrior >= pally > dh > monk

[Rewyn]

A couple things.

We are considered the most "fun" tank by many, though that is subjective obviously.

The rankings are based off of raiding and dungeons in beta and have nothing to do with live.

We are decent in dungeons due to our healing and utility, but in raids things are different which is mainly why we are considered low. Still viable just lower on the totem pole.

The general rankings right now is roughly:
Bear >= dk = warrior >= pally > dh > monk

Hrm so as a current paladin, I may more or less be equal to a bear

[Deleted]

Hey cheers for updating the guide Munkky, and for the work from everyone else involved. Just a quick couple of questions.

What is the deal with Demonspikes? I get that its our AM, but with it being on 2 charge and with feed the demon - are we suppose to just hit it off cooldown (roughly, i get we'd save for an ability like manny thrust ofc) or do we make sure we always have at least one charge up for "oh s***" moments, or is it not really worth pressing unless you need a defensive?

Are we going to get a more confirmed stat prio anytime soon? I've currently seen stat prio recommendations that put Haste, Crit, Vers and Mastery ALL as the best in different orders. Am I wrong for thinking that aiming for haste/mastery gear is what I want? or are vers and crit worth more?

Fueled by Pain or Charred Warblades? I've read the discussions on both, but am still unsure.

Veng looks really fun to play, and for dungeons at least the control/util seems strong, however; with all the extra abilities from the talents, does it get overwhelming trying to hit the correct rotation while doing normal tank stuff? I'd like a challenge (Blood dk on live which is boring as hell), but if it doesnt flow well and I'm having to put all my focus on which of my 100 rotation abilities needs to be pressed next, It'll not be as fun.

[Cooper]

Hey cheers for updating the guide Munkky, and for the work from everyone else involved. Just a quick couple of questions.

What is the deal with Demonspikes? I get that its our AM, but with it being on 2 charge and with feed the demon - are we suppose to just hit it off cooldown (roughly, i get we'd save for an ability like manny thrust ofc) or do we make sure we always have at least one charge up for "oh s***" moments, or is it not really worth pressing unless you need a defensive?

With things like that you generally want to keep the recharge running, so you would use it when you have both charges or when you need to to mitigate damage.

[Orloth]

Quick answers that I'm sure Munkky can elaborate on:

Keep the CD rolling on DS, but try to keep a charge in your pocket. Legion tanking has more second chances then in WoD, but your healer will notice the difference when you're deliberately countering abilities.

Right now stat priority is Vers > Haste to 50% > Critical > Mastery > Haste. Still waiting on stat weights.

The path to Charred Warblades was recently nerfed, so FBP, then CW by the Aldrachi Design path is the current consensus.

I've been enjoying it emensely, but I'm not a good person to ask about complexity. I've raided as a Warlock through everything from 21/40 shadow bolt spam to Cata's convoluted ten button Demo days. But it's actually not bad, the only slightly awkward part is the ground targeting of Sigils and IS.

[Lisson]

I was thinking about going Alchemy/LW, but i dont know if the Alchemy trinket is worth it. Is the Infernal Alchemist Stone valued as one of the better(best) trinkets for tanks? Or should i go LW/JC to get more value?

Thanks

[redfella]

I seriously wish Blizz would enable quick ground targeting (aka hold button to aim, let go to drop).

[Yorgl]

I seriously wish Blizz would enable quick ground targeting (aka hold button to aim, let go to drop).

Yeah :/
Or, like in WildStar, where a second tap on the bind of the targeted spell casts it.

[the boar]

Or, like in WildStar, where a second tap on the bind of the targeted spell casts it.

actually, i think you can do that with a macro. i forget where i read it though, and it wasn't that interesting to me so i don't have a macro with it..

[Raizehell]

Hey all, been following this thread for a good while now. Do you think some of those nerfs will be reverted prior to launch to bring us back up around the other tanks? I really really enjoy the Vengeance playstyle, and will only be raiding at a Heroic level most likely, but I cant help but feel like I should be playing a more effective tank for my group.

[redfella]

Blizz is, for some god awful reason, trying to balance tanks around mythic dungeons at the moment. DH was fine raidwise, but OP in dungeons so they pushed us down to the bottom along Brewmasters.

If the situation isn't sorted around launch, I'll probably invest majority of my time on another tank class sadly. I do like the playstyle a lot, but my raid spot isn't safe with that choice alone.

[Deleted]

Hey all, been following this thread for a good while now. Do you think some of those nerfs will be reverted prior to launch to bring us back up around the other tanks? I really really enjoy the Vengeance playstyle, and will only be raiding at a Heroic level most likely, but I cant help but feel like I should be playing a more effective tank for my group.

Blizz is, for some god awful reason, trying to balance tanks around mythic dungeons at the moment. DH was fine raidwise, but OP in dungeons so they pushed us down to the bottom along Brewmasters.

Would you care to elaborate for me who's not a part of Beta?

Last build our ST was nerfed a bit. Was this the nerf you're referring too?

[redfella]

Was referring to the nerfs that have taken place in the past days to ~1.5 months ago. This thread had ample discussion over each nerf hammer swing.