Which leaders shall betray the Horde/Alliance in Legion?

[Ragetacular]

I think it'll be Anduin. I'm sure he doesn't like the fact that Alliance allowed demon hunters to join their ranks. Demon Hunters are obviously against the teachings of the Light. I'm sure he will gain many supporters since Light is the biggest religion among the people of the Alliance. Demon Hunters are no better than the demons we're fighting. They're even worse since they use fel magic.

Someone doesnt read.

Like ever.

Also fel magic isnt the opposition to the Light. That would be the Void (which priests already use)

[Friendlyimmolation]

Didn't stop her from allying with Varimathras. Allying with a dreadlord has to be one of the dumbest things a "pragmatic" character can do. Especially when Varimathras backstabs his previous ally right in front of Slyvanas.

At her order, she had him whipped in everyone eye. No one knew dreadlords were immortal

[Nakotsu]

Sylvanas is permanent Warchief until the end of Azeroth.

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We're talking about the future.

Again none I will be running the horde as the next chieftan! ORCS RULE!!!!

[Daralii]

Jaina, Genn, and Rogers will be bosses in the inevitable N'Zoth-related raid.

Horde's too thin on leaders for any to turn traitor, and any Alliance characters with a degree of moral ambiguity are on the chopping block.

[Shibito]

These threads are pointless with the usual suspects getting their hardons for hating on Sylvanas, Sylvanas wont betray anyone. Genn is the most likely one as the BL can promise him revenge on the forsaken and Sylvanas.

[Daralii]

The Sylvanas hate is palatable in this thread... Leave Sylvanas alone , she has been through enough already. Hopefully she will stay for awhile, and figure out her death problem.

She killed every human, dwarf, and worgen she could across 3 zones and hasn't even gotten a nasty look from the Alliance until Genn.

[Disreali]

so why she didnt join BL when the civil war happened? she instead fight both side and force varimathras to kill his brother :|

The BL wasn't offering her a better deal than what she was getting from the Horde.

The then Warchief sent her and her followers on a suicide mission. Basically using them as cannon fodder. She refilled he ranks/"race". From her point of view, it is a creative process...

And I believe worgen cannot be turned into undead... she killed them because she was told to invade their land. It is War afterall.

War her side started. Against a then-neutral nation. Sure, "it's war," but there's a world of difference between the aggressor and the defender.

[A Dark Knight]

Alliance scum, i trust none of you.

[omeomorfismo]

The BL wasn't offering her a better deal than what she was getting from the Horde.


War her side started. Against a then-neutral nation. Sure, "it's war," but there's a world of difference between the aggressor and the defender.

horde? i speak about the civil war when she and forsaken woke up.

[beanman12345]

why do we need our leaders to betray us. not so often anyways. the betrayels they've done were so shoddy and not a lot of sense. I guess Frandrels was okay, but even that shoulda been better. idk, i'm just not impressed with the storytelling of individuals in that way in wow, so betrayals allways seems forced and not as cool as it could be. it should be a long thing. not something in a patch or even a couple. like over several expansions told.

[Derah]

War her side started.

Wrong. So wrong. The alliance started that war. The horde had a treaty which the alliance breaks first by both invading durotar, and attacking the horde at honor's stand and the crossroads BEFORE the cataclysm hit.

The subsequent attack on gilneas was a follow-up on that

[Deleted]

Someone doesnt read.

Like ever.

Also fel magic isnt the opposition to the Light. That would be the Void (which priests already use)

Yeah, some priests use Shadow Magic from the Void but I was talking about the Church of the Light. I'm pretty sure that members of the church are officially prohibited from using Shadow and Fel Magic. Not that it matters much and of course we know that the whole church is very corrupt but the common folk have no idea.

[Disreali]

Wrong. So wrong. The alliance started that war. The horde had a treaty which the alliance breaks first by both invading durotar, and attacking the horde at honor's stand and the crossroads BEFORE the cataclysm hit.

The subsequent attack on gilneas was a follow-up on that

Gilneas wasn't an Alliance nation when the Forsaken invaded it. It has nothing to do with the Alliance-Horde War, and made no aggressive moves against either side. Sylvy's invasion of Gilneas was unprovoked.

Keep playing the "the Alliance are meanies who won't let the Horde be" shtick though

[Traveler Voltin]

Gilneas wasn't an Alliance nation when the Forsaken invaded it. It has nothing to do with the Alliance-Horde War, and made no aggressive moves against either side. Sylvy's invasion of Gilneas was unprovoked.

Keep playing the "the Alliance are meanies who won't let the Horde be" shtick though

garrosh's invasion of gilneas.
sylvanas i believe was in northrend still during the first part of the invasion.

[Disreali]

garrosh's invasion of gilneas.
sylvanas i believe was in northrend still during the first part of the invasion.

Yeah, and then she took over. Killed Genn's son, and plagued his kingdom despite Garrosh's direct order not to use the plague.

I do not think it was a secret that Sylvanas did not see eye to eye with Garrosh... and that is putting it lightly. Garrosh is the one that deserves the blame, Sylvanas was obliged (in lore and in game mechanics, I doubt the Forsaken/Blood Elves wanted to become a 3rd faction) to act on his behalf.

Garrosh is basically Orc Hitler, but it was Sylvy's call to blight Gilneas against his direct order not to.

horde? i speak about the civil war when she and forsaken woke up.

I've never heard of that conflict referred to as a "civil war," but ok. When I hear "Forsaken," "Sylvanas," and "civil war" in the same conversation I assume you're talking about the fallout from the Wrathgate and the invasion of Undercity.
To your point, Sylvy had just come to and was trying to figure things out on the fly.

Since then? She's had visions of her (second) death, visions which terrified her to such an extent that she took the val'kyr up on their offer to provide a buffer between her and endless darkness.
Her actions in Legion only speak to that fear growing stronger as her number of val'kyr has shrunk. She's desperate for any means to stave off her death. That part of her character isn't in doubt. It's not an interpretation. It's clear as day.

So knowing that? It's not out of line to suspect that the Legion could sway her with promises of power and immortality. Again, I'm not saying that's what Blizzard will do with her. Just that if they did? Hypothetically speaking? It would be in-line with what they've presented thus far.

[Mehrunes]

She killed every human, dwarf, and worgen she could across 3 zones and hasn't even gotten a nasty look from the Alliance until Genn.

Dwarves of Dun'Garok were hostile since forever. Stormpikes decided to rain Armageddon upon Hillsbrad even though they already made a treaty with Frostwolves to fuck off, Dwarves from 7th Legion got involved in a war between Forsaken and a third party (Gilneas) after it was already over (which technically makes them the invaders even in Gilneas).

Humans of Hillsbrad, Southshore and Amber Mill were hostile since forever, the ones from Amber Mill also decided to support the invading 7th Legion despite escaping to magic bubble and being ignored by the Forsaken. All three were wiped out (alongside with Dun'Garok) only after the Alliance-Horde war erupted, which it did with Northwatch Hold attacking Crossroads and capturing Horde outpost of Honor's Stand (not to mention Varian's stunt in the Undercity). Humans in Andorhal were encroaching on Forsaken domain and were there only to pick a fight (idiotically, since they had no supply lines since Southshore was already Blightshore by that time). With both sides being at each other's throat from the start. And with the Alliance breaking the truce Koltira made with Thasarrian behind Sylvanas' back first.

So the Alliance could, like, not pick fights they can't win next time. Or at least focus on few things at a time (Sylvanas focusing on her borders, Garrosh focusing on Ashenvale) and not send their troops to 50 different zones and then wonder why they drop like flies, especially when they send them to places with no supply lines (again, Andorhal). And technically, she did not kill the Syndicate even in the areas she was going Exterminatus in, so the claim that she killed every human she could in these zones is off. Unless the Syndicate of Strahnbrand posses some godly military power.

[Traveler Voltin]

Yeah, and then she took over. Killed Genn's son, and plagued his kingdom despite Garrosh's direct order not to use the plague.

Liam was an idiot and got himself killed. genn should have died.
a watered down plague that didnt do anything

[Mehrunes]

Yeah, and then she took over. Killed Genn's son, and plagued his kingdom despite Garrosh's direct order not to use the plague.

And she had the choice between standing by as Garrosh wastes her troops or leading it and not wasting her troops. She had no choice whatsoever in the war taking place.

I've never heard of that conflict referred to as a "civil war," but ok. When I hear "Forsaken," "Sylvanas," and "civil war" in the same conversation I assume you're talking about the fallout from the Wrathgate and the invasion of Undercity.

There are in-game books referring to it as such since vanilla. First: http://wow.gamepedia.com/Plaguelands_civil_war. Wrathgate was a result of a coup that was quelled in a single battle. Between the Horde and the Legion. There was no war there.

Since then? She's had visions of her (second) death, visions which terrified her to such an extent that she took the val'kyr up on their offer to provide a buffer between her and endless darkness.
Her actions in Legion only speak to that fear growing stronger as her number of val'kyr has shrunk. She's desperate for any means to stave off her death. That part of her character isn't in doubt. It's not an interpretation. It's clear as day.

So knowing that? It's not out of line to suspect that the Legion could sway her with promises of power and immortality. Again, I'm not saying that's what Blizzard will do with her. Just that if they did? Hypothetically speaking? It would be in-line with what they've presented thus far.

Yes, Sylvanas that wanted to wipe out all humankind because of Arthas alone will totes ignore not only the Legion's involvement in the creation of the Scourge but also Varimathras royally fucking her over. So in-character.

[Disreali]

From her point of view, it was how she could save her people, and at the same time, do research... she is pragmatic.

Remember Garrosh wanted to destroy her and her army, so the Orcs could take over more of the Undercity. Him not wanting to use the plague was because he wanted huge casualties on the Forsaken side.

There is a reason why the Forsaken (the undead humans), and the Blood Elves all have huge respect for Sylvanas. She is ruthless, but she tends to be loyal to people that are loyal to her.

What the Sylvy fans don't seem to get is that from the point of view of others she's an aggressor and a defiler. Just because she's (nominally) on the side you support doesn't mean she's a hero to the rest of us

Liam was an idiot and got himself killed. genn should have died.
a watered down plague that didnt do anything

Victim blaming and SYLVANAS DID NOTHING WRONG ? This subforum's Azeroth's version of /pol isn't it?

Anyway Varian confirms at the end of SoO that Gilneas will need to be cleansed of plague before it can be reclaimed. So it wasn't a harmless version of the plague.

Humans of Hillsbrad, Southshore and Amber Mill were hostile since forever, the ones from Amber Mill also decided to support the invading 7th Legion despite escaping to magic bubble and being ignored by the Forsaken.

I love how Forsaken fans will go on about how the natives of Lordaeron deserve to have their land when those natives are Forsaken. When it comes to still-living Lordaeron natives who remained loyal to the Alliance? It's "KILL THEM UNTIL THEY'RE DEAD!"

Yes, Sylvanas that wanted to wipe out all humankind because of Arthas alone will totes ignore not only the Legion's involvement in the creation of the Scourge but also Varimathras royally fucking her over. So in-character.

I know you're aware that Sylvy's history with Varimathras and Arthas both pre-date her revelation that there's nothing waiting for her beyond death but an empty, cold, void. Since then? She's been consistently written to be willing to engage in increasingly dark methods to prolong her own existence.

[Derah]

Gilneas wasn't an Alliance nation when the Forsaken invaded it. It has nothing to do with the Alliance-Horde War, and made no aggressive moves against either side. Sylvy's invasion of Gilneas was unprovoked.

Keep playing the "the Alliance are meanies who won't let the Horde be" shtick though

Three corrections there.

1: Sylvanas didn't invade Gilneas. Garrosh did. He forced sylvanas into it. She was very much against the idea from the start. Wanna blame someone? blame garrosh.

2: "Gilneas made no aggressive moves against either side" is one gigantic load of horseshit. The worgen had been a gigantic menace to the forsaken for years, and had been responsible for many deaths in silverpine forest. That invasion was very much centered on combating a very real threat to forsaken lands.

3: While the land of Gilneas wasn't affiliated with the alliance at the time, it wasn't unreasonable to think that now that the alliance had made a move against the horde on kalimdor, they'd try the same on the eastern kingdoms. Gilneas was a vulnerable breach right into the backdoor of forsaken territory. A breach that had to be sealed because, surprise surprise, the seventh legion DID arrive en masse with a naval fleet and deployed in large force to silverpine. Through where? Through Gilneas. THIS is the reason why Garrosh ordered the forsaken to step through