Iraq war dodgers urge Prime Minister Trudeau to let them stay

[Ulmita]

They are deserters and deserve no sympathy or quarter.

What if they tilted after they learned there are no WMDs there and that the invasion of Iraq is fucking stupid?
This isn't a case of defending the country. This is a case of not wanting to invade another for no reason what so ever.

Nah we should keep them.

[Usagi Senshi]

As an Englishman... y'all sound like a bunch of vindictive motherfuckers.

Unfortunately I see that vindictiveness in a lot of people, usually mindless and without any cares.

i.e. people care too much about petty shit.

[Sliske]

What would even happen to them if they went back? Jail time I guess? I don't think they should get jail time, they're cowards, not malicious criminals.

Like it or not, signing up to the army isn't the same as getting a job laying bricks. If you don't fancy going to war, you probably shouldn't of joined the army. Without a doubt there are hundreds / thousands of people in the Army that cannot even imagine the idea that they will actually one day go to war, when it hits them, they reconsider.

My 2 cents is theres two ways to do it - mandatory conscription during war time, and willingly volunteering to the mandatory service. The former is clearly worse, so we're left with the latter.

But again, they aren't violent/malicious criminals, they're cowards or people who had a change of heart - why waste prison space on them? Perhaps they should be fined the money they were given by the army + another penalty for leaving during war time? Of course there needs to be a deterrent, but putting them in jail is just silly.

[Deleted]

Heres the thing though, coming from a combat veteran.

When you're in for a while and have time and heart invested in it, you forget about the politics. When you deploy its more about keeping the guy to the left and right of you alive. When you desert, you're not just deserting your obligations, but you are also deserting your friends and brothers in arms. It is cowardice of the highest form.

I'm sure people in ISIS say the same stuff.

[Theinquisition]

Roughly translated thats what a prisoner at the Nuremberg trials said.

Marxist going to lecture me on the morality of armed conflict lol.

GTFO of here with that shit.

[Deleted]

the Americans didn't deal with AQ in Iraq? You'll have to provide that citation.

Really? Jesus. You don't know that ISIS is a splinter group of al-quaeda in Iraq? And you were going on about being uninformed.

[Sliske]

Unfortunately I see that vindictiveness in a lot of people, usually mindless and without any cares.

i.e. people care too much about petty shit.

There needs to be consequences when your soldiers promise to protect the interests of the country, then turn tail and run. This was just the Iraq War, what if it was a real threat, like Russia or Nazi Germany? 300m people would be placing their trust in these willing soldiers, only to have them step aside when the enemy comes.

Mandatory service people running away from their tyrannical government? Sure.

To have a really silly comparison, its like joining a game of League and afking out the second the gates open.

[Pantelija]

i dont know if its sarcasm or what but your officers giving orders to go to war is not an illegal order. whether an invasion is illegal or not is dependent on the government and generals as i said in an earlier post. not the individual soldier.

Blindly obeying orders is a good thing, afterall "I was only obeying orders" is a perfect excuse when you are battling with the justice system for the war crimes or with your consciousness.

[Deleted]

Marxist going to lecture me on the morality of armed conflict lol.

GTFO of here with that shit.

I am because I've never participated in an illegal invasion which murdered tens of thousands of women and children.

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There needs to be consequences when your soldiers promise to protect the interests of the country, then turn tail and run. This was just the Iraq War, what if it was a real threat, like Russia or Nazi Germany? 300m people would be placing their trust in these willing soldiers, only to have them step aside when the enemy comes.

Yeah because a war of defense against a formidable opponent is exactly the same as invading a small backward country so you get strategic control of its assets.

[Lord Berserker]

Just put them on the firing line and be done with it.

Desertion is probably the most cowardly act in existence.

[Pantelija]

what if it was a real threat, like Russia or Nazi Germany?.

Yes my fellow american Russia is Nazi Germany v2.0 and gona attack any day now, just look how close they put their country to our military bases around the world.

[Arcrin]

Blindly obeying orders is a good thing, afterall "I was only obeying orders" is a perfect excuse when you are battling with the justice system for the war crimes or with your consciousness.

i already debunked that earlier in this thread, your emotions about if a war is morally right or not the law doesnt care about. there are specific type of orders that are legal and not legal, going to war that the president and at the time nato wanted is not illegal. the soldiers during vietnam who went is not war criminals because they obeyed deployment orders either.

[Sliske]

Yes my fellow american Russia is Nazi Germany v2.0 and gona attack any day now, just look how close they put their country to our military bases around the world.

Russia could be a real threat, as was Nazi Germany. I didn't say Russia is Nazi Germany 2.0. I said they could be a real threat. If you want me to list countries that wouldn't be a threat to the USA, I can do that, but it wouldn't be much of a point. And i'm not American

Are you insane?

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Yeah because a war of defense against a formidable opponent is exactly the same as invading a small backward country so you get strategic control of its assets.

So you want the soldiers to choose when they protect the countries interests and when not to? You understand that an Army is not a job at a video game store, right? You need to be cohesive.

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Blindly obeying orders is a good thing, afterall "I was only obeying orders" is a perfect excuse when you are battling with the justice system for the war crimes or with your consciousness.

The winner of the war gets to choose who is morally wrong or right.

[Seranthor]

Really? Jesus. You don't know that ISIS is a splinter group of al-quaeda in Iraq? And you were going on about being uninformed.

I know who they are, and I know that your post doesn't contain the citation requested.

Hell, I am not advocating putting them in prison... I would advocate for dishonorable discharge (as if they cared), reduction in rank to the lowest rank (again as if they cared), forfeiture of all pay and allowances, reimbursement of all bonuses paid, and lose their US citizenship and never be allowed to return.

Given their obvious choices it would seem they'd be amiable with all of these, and I'm reasonably certain that any military prosecutor would sign on to these as well.

[Pantelija]

the soldiers during vietnam who went is not war criminals because they obeyed deployment orders either..

"Shoot anything that moves" is not illegal you say. Lets napalm bomb entire forests to ash is not illegal you say.

Do you think Geneva Convention agrees with your opinion if war crimes are illegal?

[Karadros]

Just put them on the firing line and be done with it.

Desertion is probably the most cowardly act in existence.

It might be a runner-up; we all know that #1 is shitposting on forums.

[Pantelija]

Are you insane?

I was about to ask you the same since you put Nazi Germany and Russia in same sentence claiming Russia today is a threat.

[Dendrek]

I think there's something wrong with being able to sign away your personhood. As many of you have pointed out, when you join the military, you become an asset, not a person. You're a tool with (almost) no rights. You do what you are told without the right to object. And you have almost no way to remove yourself from that obligation. I consider that entire system fucking wrong. You absolutely should have a way to remove yourself from that system if you feel you are no longer compatible with it.

The fact that so many of you (including several very liberal people -- something I find surprising really) think "you dun signed your life away, so deal with the consequences" is a reasonable opinion is weird to me. I mean, should it literally be possible to sign your life away without any legal way to cancel that contract? Would you be ok with a business being able to write up a contract like that which was fully enforced by the government? Some of our more ridiculous posters might say yes to this, but I'm not asking those posters because their opinions mean nothing to me. I'm asking those of you who are usually very, VERY pro-human rights. Why the hell is this ok? Keep in mind, most people who sign up for the military are still very young (18-22, etc) and very immature. They barely grasp the full ramifications for what they're agreeing to. Are they really mature enough to completely forfeit their freedom to the government?

[Arcrin]

"Shoot anything that moves" is not illegal you say. Lets napalm bomb entire forests to ash is not illegal you say.

Do you think Geneva Convention agrees with your opinion if war crimes are illegal?

thats not the point. what you do when you arrive at the war has nothing to do with deployment orders. which is what the thread is about, deployment.

[Lord Berserker]

I think there's something wrong with being able to sign away your personhood. As many of you have pointed out, when you join the military, you become an asset, not a person. You're a tool with (almost) no rights. You do what you are told without the right to object. And you have almost no way to remove yourself from that obligation. I consider that entire system fucking wrong. You absolutely should have a way to remove yourself from that system if you feel you are no longer compatible with it.

The fact that so many of you (including several very liberal people -- something I find surprising really) think "you dun signed your life away, so deal with the consequences" is a reasonable opinion is weird to me. I mean, should it literally be possible to sign your life away without any legal way to cancel that contract? Would you be ok with a business being able to write up a contract like that which was fully enforced by the government? Some of our more ridiculous posters might say yes to this, but I'm not asking those posters because their opinions mean nothing to me. I'm asking those of you who are usually very, VERY pro-human rights. Why the hell is this ok? Keep in mind, most people who sign up for the military are still very young (18-22, etc) and very immature. They barely grasp the full ramifications for what they're agreeing to. Are they really mature enough to completely forfeit their freedom to the government?

How about this. Don't sign up for the Military if you don't want to be in the Military.

You sign up for a number of years, You AGREE to them, you make a contract. If you break the contract, you deserve punishment.