Which leaders shall betray the Horde/Alliance in Legion?

[omeomorfismo]

Yeah, and then she took over. Killed Genn's son, and plagued his kingdom despite Garrosh's direct order not to use the plague.


Garrosh is basically Orc Hitler, but it was Sylvy's call to blight Gilneas against his direct order not to.


I've never heard of that conflict referred to as a "civil war," but ok. When I hear "Forsaken," "Sylvanas," and "civil war" in the same conversation I assume you're talking about the fallout from the Wrathgate and the invasion of Undercity.
To your point, Sylvy had just come to and was trying to figure things out on the fly.

Since then? She's had visions of her (second) death, visions which terrified her to such an extent that she took the val'kyr up on their offer to provide a buffer between her and endless darkness.
Her actions in Legion only speak to that fear growing stronger as her number of val'kyr has shrunk. She's desperate for any means to stave off her death. That part of her character isn't in doubt. It's not an interpretation. It's clear as day.

So knowing that? It's not out of line to suspect that the Legion could sway her with promises of power and immortality. Again, I'm not saying that's what Blizzard will do with her. Just that if they did? Hypothetically speaking? It would be in-line with what they've presented thus far.

at least in the wikias these wars are called plaguelands civil wars...
however during the missions is pretty clear her hatred for the demons
example from "the dark lady" mission :"I lived as a slave long enough, dreadlord. I won't relinquish my freedom by shackling myself to you fools!"
and i doubt she is so desperate to throw her freedom, at least there is nothing that suggests this...

[Derah]

Anyway Varian confirms at the end of SoO that Gilneas will need to be cleansed of plague before it can be reclaimed. So it wasn't a harmless version of the plague.

Yes it was. The legendary dagger questline that rogues do for wrathion takes place partly in gilneas, and the very same city that was plague-bombed to shit, is re-occupied by mercs loyal to a black dragon. HUMAN mercs, who show no adverse effects, nor were they wearing gas masks or hazmat suits.

So the plague used by the forsaken in gilneas WAS a watered down version that dissipates quickly, rather than the super-toxic radioactive crap they used in southshore.

[Traveler Voltin]

What the Sylvy fans don't seem to get is that from the point of view of others she's an aggressor and a defiler. Just because she's (nominally) on the side you support doesn't mean she's a hero to the rest of us


Victim blaming and SYLVANAS DID NOTHING WRONG ? This subforum's Azeroth's version of /pol isn't it?

Anyway Varian confirms at the end of SoO that Gilneas will need to be cleansed of plague before it can be reclaimed. So it wasn't a harmless version of the plague.


I love how Forsaken fans will go on about how the natives of Lordaeron deserve to have their land when those natives are Forsaken. When it comes to still-living Lordaeron natives who remained loyal to the Alliance? It's "KILL THEM UNTIL THEY'RE DEAD!"


I know you're aware that Sylvy's history with Varimathras and Arthas both pre-date her revelation that there's nothing waiting for her beyond death but an empty, cold, void. Since then? She's been consistently written to be willing to engage in increasingly dark methods to prolong her own existence.

Didnt say she was innocent only that alliance fanboys over react when it comes to the plague which is an acid bomb and probably much cleaner death than a fire bomb.

The plague in gilneas didnt do anything. It didnt kill the worgen. Sure its still there but it still didn't do anything.

[Triceratrozer]

I'd half-guess Tyrande? The Alliance hasn't seemed to do her many favors. And she seems to be growing a bit more discontent. Genn's seeming to be kinda a wildcard.
Probably Jaina but I kinda hope not.


I dunno if they'll actually betray anything, though.

[Daralii]

Three corrections there.

1: Sylvanas didn't invade Gilneas. Garrosh did. He forced sylvanas into it. She was very much against the idea from the start. Wanna blame someone? blame garrosh.

2: "Gilneas made no aggressive moves against either side" is one gigantic load of horseshit. The worgen had been a gigantic menace to the forsaken for years, and had been responsible for many deaths in silverpine forest. That invasion was very much centered on combating a very real threat to forsaken lands.

3: While the land of Gilneas wasn't affiliated with the alliance at the time, it wasn't unreasonable to think that now that the alliance had made a move against the horde on kalimdor, they'd try the same on the eastern kingdoms. Gilneas was a vulnerable breach right into the backdoor of forsaken territory. A breach that had to be sealed because, surprise surprise, the seventh legion DID arrive en masse with a naval fleet and deployed in large force to silverpine. Through where? Through Gilneas. THIS is the reason why Garrosh ordered the forsaken to step through

Regarding point 2, the worgen that had been attacking the Forsaken were a pack under control of Arugal, the same pack that caused a Gilnean civil war and eventually lead to the outbreak.

The Bloodfang eventually joined with the GLF and later the Stormpike, but it's disingenuous to say the worgen in the old Silverpine are the same worgen that joined the Alliance.

[Tripzzz]

At her order, she had him whipped in everyone eye. No one knew dreadlords were immortal

The fact she ordered it is what made it so retarded.

"How do I know I can trust you? I know! Betray your ally. That will show me how trustworthy you are!"

His betrayal of his allies foreshadowed him betraying Slyvanas, except she was too stupid to see that.

[Kellorion]

Im thinking Romanth will, sense he seems to be the only Lore figure that doesn't do much of anything in Legion.

[Disreali]

Well, I think that kind of begs the question if we are talking about "RP" style discussions, or "OC".

As a human, having someone turn humans into intelligent zombies, etc... that is not too attractive.

As a human pretending the Wow Lore is "real", and being a character in the world (An Undead, than Blood Elf). Everything Sylvanas did, in the eyes of her people, is justified out of desperation.

My character is a Blood Elf Shadow Priest... so from my point of view, which is already twisted, she did what had to be done to save her people, and prolong her life. She sacrificed her life for the Elves, and now she is doing it for the undead... major respect from me.

Well my mains are a worgen warrior and a human paladin so OOC and IC are more or less in line
OOC she's an undead menace raising an army of zombies to wage war against the living. So that's obviously a downer.

IC? She invaded Gilneas without provocation, and no Garrosh ordering the initial invasion means nothing when she's the one who blighted the land and killed the crown prince.
She's also the one who holds dominion over Lordaeron, forcing the living native humans of the region to either serve as pets and test subjects to her zombie horde, or forcing them to live in exile.

And back to the OOC stuff...I just don't find her all that great a character. She's male adolescent fantasy moulded into a character. An undead, brooding character, but not too undead so she can't still be hot! And she does all of this dark stuff, but never suffers any consequences for it because she's just so badass!
It just reads like something a fourteen year old boy would come up with if he were assigned high fantasy in creative writing class. Not that she's alone in that respect. Illidan and Varian both suffered from that themselves, but at least the writers at Blizz manage to grow them as characters, or at the very least have them suffer as a result of bad decisions.

[Maxilian]

What the Sylvy fans don't seem to get is that from the point of view of others she's an aggressor and a defiler. Just because she's (nominally) on the side you support doesn't mean she's a hero to the rest of us

Yes, mainly for the Worgen

Victim blaming and SYLVANAS DID NOTHING WRONG ? This subforum's Azeroth's version of /pol isn't it?

Well that war falls into Garrosh shoulder, and Liam was a mere soldier that gave his life for his king

Anyway Varian confirms at the end of SoO that Gilneas will need to be cleansed of plague before it can be reclaimed. So it wasn't a harmless version of the plague.

Garrosh forced the Forsaken to use a dumbed down version of the plague, it was useless, until they said fuck it (the conversation in the Cathedral) where Sylvanas decide to use the full force of the plague (that's how they got to push back the Worgen after they regained their ground)

I love how Forsaken fans will go on about how the natives of Lordaeron deserve to have their land when those natives are Forsaken. When it comes to still-living Lordaeron natives who remained loyal to the Alliance? It's "KILL THEM UNTIL THEY'RE DEAD!"

Those that are still alive are the minority, and that's also irrelevant, its not like the ruler of lordaeron is Alliance.

I know you're aware that Sylvy's history with Varimathras and Arthas both pre-date her revelation that there's nothing waiting for her beyond death but an empty, cold, void. Since then? She's been consistently written to be willing to engage in increasingly dark methods to prolong her own existence.

And that's what makes her interesting, she is willingly to do some dark things, but for the moment, what she have tried to accomplish was also of use to their allies, so no reason to cry about that, the question is... will she ever be like that?

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Well my mains are a worgen warrior and a human paladin so OOC and IC are more or less in line
OOC she's an undead menace raising an army of zombies to wage war against the living. So that's obviously a downer.

IC? She invaded Gilneas without provocation, and no Garrosh ordering the initial invasion means nothing when she's the one who blighted the land and killed the crown prince.
She's also the one who holds dominion over Lordaeron, forcing the living native humans of the region to either serve as pets and test subjects to her zombie horde, or forcing them to live in exile.

The war on Gilneas was not provocated by her, not like she could just pull back (The forsaken were between the sword and the wall), also most native humans that live in the region have no problem with the forsaken, until they start giving supplies to the alliance soldiers of the zone.

Note: Yes, the Forsaken are not good, they do a lot of bad things (like human experimentation... actually only human experimentation, but that's really really bad but the only that care are the humans :P)

[omeomorfismo]

experimentation on shitty scarlet crusade is moral :|
better for science than die for a dreadlord

[Maxilian]

If Sylvanas stays in charge, I assume Lor'themar will eventually want to pull his forces from the Horde. He knows what she is, who she is, he's never expressed any kind of respect for her in any shape or form. Infact I'm pretty sure he despises her and what she's become.

I can see Moira getting shitty if Magni ever returns to the throne, Jaina is a loose cannon, Gallywix would probably betray anyone for $$. Genn may also turn if he loses himself in this war against Sylvanas. He's already defying Anduins orders and rebelling with Rogers by going after Sylvanas. We'll see I guess

I don't see Mekkatorque, Falstad, Muradin, Baine, The two pandas, & Anduin ever betraying their people.

I am curious about the End Time visions though, it already foresaw Jaina becoming broken(and destruction all around her; Theramore) for Tyrande it showed her losing her faith, or turning her back on the light, Sylvanas leading more and more undead(Some of course think this is a "lich queen" situation) And Baine becoming consumed by rage.

I think its much to say that Lorthemar have never had respect for Sylvanas, he basically started having problem with her, in his short story (the time of the Lich King and it didn't got better after that)

[Florena]

If Sylvanas stays in charge, I assume Lor'themar will eventually want to pull his forces from the Horde. He knows what she is, who she is, he's never expressed any kind of respect for her in any shape or form. Infact I'm pretty sure he despises her and what she's become.

I can see Moira getting shitty if Magni ever returns to the throne, Jaina is a loose cannon, Gallywix would probably betray anyone for $$. Genn may also turn if he loses himself in this war against Sylvanas. He's already defying Anduins orders and rebelling with Rogers by going after Sylvanas. We'll see I guess

I don't see Mekkatorque, Falstad, Muradin, Baine, The two pandas, & Anduin ever betraying their people.

I am curious about the End Time visions though, it already foresaw Jaina becoming broken(and destruction all around her; Theramore) for Tyrande it showed her losing her faith, or turning her back on the light, Sylvanas leading more and more undead(Some of course think this is a "lich queen" situation) And Baine becoming consumed by rage.

It would be a complete 180 on Magni's part to suddenly go for the throne.

[Highwhale]

Wrong. So wrong. The alliance started that war. The horde had a treaty which the alliance breaks first by both invading durotar, and attacking the horde at honor's stand and the crossroads BEFORE the cataclysm hit.

The subsequent attack on gilneas was a follow-up on that.

Do you know what Gilneas rejoined Alliance after forsakens attacked them? So technically horde attacked neutral race.

Liam was an idiot and got himself killed. genn should have died.

So fucking logic and smart answer.

There is a reason why the Forsaken (the undead humans), and the Blood Elves all have huge respect for Sylvanas. She is ruthless, but she tends to be loyal to people that are loyal to her.

Actually BELFs dislike Sylvanas and wanna get rid of her.

2: "Gilneas made no aggressive moves against either side" is one gigantic load of horseshit. The worgen had been a gigantic menace to the forsaken for years, and had been responsible for many deaths in silverpine forest. That invasion was very much centered on combating a very real threat to forsaken lands.

Learn your lore - those worgens was from Emerald Dream summoned by Arugal. Gilneas civilians become worgens only when Greymane Wall was destroyed.

Gilneas was a vulnerable breach right into the backdoor of forsaken territory. A breach that had to be sealed because, surprise surprise, the seventh legion DID arrive en masse with a naval fleet and deployed in large force to silverpine. Through where? Through Gilneas.

The fun thing is what Alliance did it only when horde attack Gilneas and provoke war.

1: Sylvanas didn't invade Gilneas. Garrosh did. He forced sylvanas into it. She was very much against the idea from the start. Wanna blame someone? blame garrosh.

And Sylvanas couldn't say to him to fuck off? I quess only Baine and Vol'jin had balls to say it.

[Combatbutler]

And Sylvanas couldn't say to him to fuck off? I quess only Baine and Vol'jin had balls to say it.

Except they didn't, read edge of the night tauren and trolls were present for the invasion.

Their armies were present in Ashenvale,Gilneas and Theramore

[Aeula]

Jaina. All the Legion needs to do is pinky promise to destroy the horde.

I reckon the Ebon blade will fall even further into the Lich king's grasp too.

As for the horde, Aethas already betrayed us and went crawling back to the Kirin Tor. So he can fucking die for all I care.

Beyond that? Who knows?

[omeomorfismo]

Learn your lore - those worgens was from Emerald Dream summoned by Arugal. Gilneas civilians become worgens only when Greymane Wall was destroyed.

and you learned that arugal summoned worgen after a request of genn?
http://eu.battle.net/wow/it/game/lor...ane/7#readmode
oh, and the worgen affliction started before the fall of the wall

[Grenzstein]

Jaina. Only Jaina.

[Ripitgood]

Hopefully Anduin, and he'll have been a disciple of Benedictus and Bishop Farthing, and after Farthing, or the "Twilight Deacon"'s death in Tirisfal, Anduin reveals himself as the leader of the Twilight's Hammer Cult, having been driven insane when Varian was temporarily killed at Tiffin's grave, and dies once and for all.

Doubt it'll be Anduin. Blizz has spent a LONG time cultivating him as a character to replace his Father (which after reading a few of the newer comics) I think they did a very excellent Job. Even if I'll likely never come to terms with my Lo'Gosh being dead.

My best is Jaina - She HATES the Horde far more than Garrosh ever hated the alliance. When we manage to silence the Legion (If only shutting the Tomb's Door). My guess is she'll take the chance to grab the Pillars and jet. She's a powerful mage - Closely regarded to Khadgar (And this mother timewalks lets be honest). It wouldn't be hard for her to cultivate a following on that power alone, along with other anti-horde/pro-war people.

[nnelson54]

Wrong. So wrong. The alliance started that war. The horde had a treaty which the alliance breaks first by both invading durotar, and attacking the horde at honor's stand and the crossroads BEFORE the cataclysm hit.

The subsequent attack on gilneas was a follow-up on that

I'm all for the Horde and I welcome our new Forsaken overlords, but Gilnaes was not part of the Alliance when the Horde invaded it. It was part of the war that the Alliance started(Garrosh needed a seaport on the Eastern Kingdoms) but Gilnaes was not involved in that and the Horde were absolutely the aggressor when they invaded Gilnaes to take its port.

[Movr]

Tyrande betray the alliance and Illidan is forced to kill her.