Iraq war dodgers urge Prime Minister Trudeau to let them stay

[Adam Jensen]

I'd be sympathetic if there was a draft. There wasn't. They knew what they were signing up for. Don't join the military if you disagree with what the country is doing militarily.

[Sliske]

I was about to ask you the same since you put Nazi Germany and Russia in same sentence claiming Russia today is a threat.

COULD be. Or are you now under the delusion America can handle nuclear warfare? Seriously

[Arcrin]

I think there's something wrong with being able to sign away your personhood. As many of you have pointed out, when you join the military, you become an asset, not a person. You're a tool with (almost) no rights. You do what you are told without the right to object. And you have almost no way to remove yourself from that obligation. I consider that entire system fucking wrong. You absolutely should have a way to remove yourself from that system if you feel you are no longer compatible with it.

The fact that so many of you (including several very liberal people -- something I find surprising really) think "you dun signed your life away, so deal with the consequences" is a reasonable opinion is weird to me. I mean, should it literally be possible to sign your life away without any legal way to cancel that contract? Would you be ok with a business being able to write up a contract like that which was fully enforced by the government? Some of our more ridiculous posters might say yes to this, but I'm not asking those posters because their opinions mean nothing to me. I'm asking those of you who are usually very, VERY pro-human rights. Why the hell is this ok? Keep in mind, most people who sign up for the military are still very young (18-22, etc) and very immature. They barely grasp the full ramifications for what they're agreeing to. Are they really mature enough to completely forfeit their freedom to the government?

you can cancel the contract and be discharged. these people who fled to Canada did not do that. they ran away.

[Dendrek]

How about this. Don't sign up for the Military if you don't want to be in the Military.

You sign up for a number of years, You AGREE to them, you make a contract. If you break the contract, you deserve punishment.

I already brought this up:
1) Most people who sign up are still young. They're barely mature enough to make that kind of commitment.
2) Should it really be possible to sign your life away?

To put it another way, would it be ok if you could sign a contract that says "I agree to be your slave for 6 years, doing whatever you want me to do without question and allowing you to do whatever you want to me without reproduction, with the promise that at the end of those 6 years you'll give me a large sum of money, or free college education, etc. Also, you can put me in situations where I can be killed without consequence. And you also have the right to extend my contract arbitrarily if you decide you need to"?

[Seranthor]

I already brought this up:
1) Most people who sign up are still young. They're barely mature enough to make that kind of commitment.
2) Should it really be possible to sign your life away?

To put it another way, would it be ok if you could sign a contract that says "I agree to be your slave for 6 years, doing whatever you want me to do without question and allowing you to do whatever you want to me without reproduction, with the promise that at the end of those 6 years you'll give me a large sum of money, or free college education, etc. Also, you can put me in situations where I can be killed without consequence. And you also have the right to extend my contract arbitrarily if you decide you need to"?

So you are saying that the education system in various countries is too shamefully pathetic and inept that it produces young people that are too fucking stupid to read and comprehend what they've read?

[Lord Berserker]

I already brought this up:
1) Most people who sign up are still young. They're barely mature enough to make that kind of commitment.
2) Should it really be possible to sign your life away?

To put it another way, would it be ok if you could sign a contract that says "I agree to be your slave for 6 years, doing whatever you want me to do without question and allowing you to do whatever you want to me without reproduction, with the promise that at the end of those 6 years you'll give me a large sum of money, or free college education, etc. Also, you can put me in situations where I can be killed without consequence. And you also have the right to extend my contract arbitrarily if you decide you need to"?

Sure, as long as there is a legal discharge clause in there like an actual oath of service to the Military. Let me make this clear for your bleeding heart. These people did not get themselves discharged.

You are not forced to fight in the Military, because if you do not want to fight, leave the Military. These people deserted.

[Dendrek]

Sure, as long as there is a legal discharge clause in there like an actual oath of service to the Military. Let me make this clear for your bleeding heart. These people did not get themselves discharged.

You are not forced to fight in the Military, because if you do not want to fight, leave the Military. These people deserted.

Source

TL;DR: You can't "simply" get discharged. There are actually very strict requirements to be discharged. If you don't meet those requirements, you CANNOT be discharged legally. So no, it's not nearly as easy as you're trying to make it sound. For many people (and quite possibly for each of the people mentioned in the OP) it's impossible.

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So you are saying that the education system in various countries is too shamefully pathetic and inept that it produces young people that are too fucking stupid to read and comprehend what they've read?

Ok, you don't seem to understand. That's fine. You do mention poor reading comprehension. Perhaps that's something you struggle with?

People are being allowed to SIGN THEIR LIVES AWAY without (in many cases) a way to cancel that contract legally. Why the fuck is it even reasonable to have a contract like that exist in the first place?

I absolutely understand the need to have a military. And I understand that it needs to have very strict rules because the lives of enlisted people as well as the well being of the nation they're enlisting for are at stake if they aren't well trained and well regulated. Certain levels of individuality and autonomy need to be suppressed in order for that to work. But these people are still human beings. They should still be afforded the rights provided by the nation they are defending. And there is absolutely no possible way that a contract similar to the military contract would ever be enforced if it were written up by any other institution.

[Seranthor]

Source

TL;DR: You can't "simply" get discharged. There are actually very strict requirements to be discharged. If you don't meet those requirements, you CANNOT be discharged legally. So no, it's not nearly as easy as you're trying to make it sound. For many people (and quite possibly for each of the people mentioned in the OP) it's impossible.

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Ok, you don't seem to understand. That's fine. You do mention poor reading comprehension. Perhaps that's something you struggle with?

People are being allowed to SIGN THEIR LIVES AWAY without (in many cases) a way to cancel that contract legally. Why the fuck is it even reasonable to have a contract like that exist in the first place?

I absolutely understand the need to have a military. And I understand that it needs to have very strict rules because the lives of enlisted people as well as the well being of the nation they're enlisting for are at stake if they aren't well trained and well regulated. Certain levels of individuality and autonomy need to be suppressed in order for that to work. But these people are still human beings. They should still be afforded the rights provided by the nation they are defending. And there is absolutely no possible way that a contract similar to the military contract would ever be enforced if it were written up by any other institution.

I understand exactly what you are saying, I do. I've been there. I was 17 (this was 1985) at the time of my first enlistment, I read the contract, front to back, back to front. I pushed it away, I read it again, I thought about it, I hesitated, I hesitated again. I ultimately signed it.

You seem to have a hard time with the gravity of the contract... Guess what? Dont want to be bound by the terms of a contract, ANY CONTRACT, the solution is brutally simple... DONT FUCKING SIGN IT... see how easy that is?

I made the cognizant choice to sign the contract... as did every single one of those fucking deserters still in Canada. Not a single one of them was forced to sign it.

[Kapadons]

Traitors. Should be taken out back and shot.

[Dendrek]

You seem to have a hard time with the gravity of the contract... Guess what? Dont want to be bound by the terms of a contract, ANY CONTRACT, the solution is brutally simple... DONT FUCKING SIGN IT... see how easy that is?

It's not that easy.

There are laws in the US that prevent entities from being able to create and enforce unreasonable contracts. Imagine if that restriction was not in place.

"Want to sign up for Cable TV? No problem! Just sign this contract agreeing to pay a monthly fee for our services! What's that? The small text at the bottom that says something about becoming our indentured servant if you ever fail to make your payments? Pay no mind to that! It's just a little legal mumbo-jumbo. You won't fail to make your payments, will you? So you have nothing to worry about!"

If the person failed to make their payment, would you be the first to say, "Well, you didn't have to sign that contract! Enjoy working in a sweat shop"?

My point is why should it ever be possible, for the military for any other entity in the US, to be able to write up a contract that forces a person to literally forfeit their rights and then have the full weight of the US government to enforce that contract? And if we are going to accept that such a contract can be written and enforced, it should also be possible to get out of that contract. (And Lord Berserker's suggestion of getting discharged does not count since it's not universally possible to do.)

[Seranthor]

It's not that easy.

There are laws in the US that prevent entities from being able to create and enforce unreasonable contracts. Imagine if that restriction was not in place.

"Want to sign up for Cable TV? No problem! Just sign this contract agreeing to pay a monthly fee for our services! What's that? The small text at the bottom that says something about becoming our indentured servant if you ever fail to make your payments? Pay no mind to that! It's just a little legal mumbo-jumbo. You won't fail to make your payments, will you? So you have nothing to worry about!"

If the person failed to make their payment, would you be the first to say, "Well, you didn't have to sign that contract! Enjoy working in a sweat shop"?

My point is why should it ever be possible, for the military for any other entity in the US, to be able to write up a contract that forces a person to literally forfeit their rights and then have the full weight of the US government to enforce that contract? And if we are going to accept that such a contract can be written and enforced, it should also be possible to get out of that contract. (And Lord Berserker's suggestion of getting discharged does not count since it's not universally possible to do.)

It's not that easy? Really? How ELSE are you going to get into the military if you dont sign the contract? No, seriously, answer me. Are there secret government teams that roam the country and snatch up folks in the dead of night and take them to some room and say 'Sign this contract'?

[Dendrek]

It's not that easy? Really? How ELSE are you going to get into the military if you dont sign the contract? No, seriously, answer me.

You're being intentionally obtuse.

[Deleted]

I'm genuinely interested in this.


I work X job, its not military, it's just a job.

I dont turn up one day, my contract says I have to turn up, but I dont. I ignore phone calls, all that jazz, I am 100% in breach of my contract. Turns out I dont get paid at the end of the month, go figure.

Does this merit me going to prison?

[Deleted]

I think there's something wrong with being able to sign away your personhood. As many of you have pointed out, when you join the military, you become an asset, not a person. You're a tool with (almost) no rights. You do what you are told without the right to object. And you have almost no way to remove yourself from that obligation. I consider that entire system fucking wrong. You absolutely should have a way to remove yourself from that system if you feel you are no longer compatible with it.

The fact that so many of you (including several very liberal people -- something I find surprising really) think "you dun signed your life away, so deal with the consequences" is a reasonable opinion is weird to me. I mean, should it literally be possible to sign your life away without any legal way to cancel that contract? Would you be ok with a business being able to write up a contract like that which was fully enforced by the government? Some of our more ridiculous posters might say yes to this, but I'm not asking those posters because their opinions mean nothing to me. I'm asking those of you who are usually very, VERY pro-human rights. Why the hell is this ok? Keep in mind, most people who sign up for the military are still very young (18-22, etc) and very immature. They barely grasp the full ramifications for what they're agreeing to. Are they really mature enough to completely forfeit their freedom to the government?

Yes, yes and yes. This is why you take contracts home, read them through and talk with soldiers to know if you're willing to go through with it. It's called being responsible for your actions.

[Seranthor]

You're being intentionally obtuse.

No, I'm intentionally cutting thru all the bullshit you are trying to throw up to justify their actions and asking a brutally simple question that is the ROOT cause of their situation. Now, answer the question. Not to mention I'm curious why you are harping on me... I am more than willing to let them stay in Canada, and I'm not calling for their imprisonment or their deaths. So, exactly why are you haranguing me?

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I'm genuinely interested in this.


I work X job, its not military, it's just a job.

I dont turn up one day, my contract says I have to turn up, but I dont. I ignore phone calls, all that jazz, I am 100% in breach of my contract. Turns out I dont get paid at the end of the month, go figure.

Does this merit me going to prison?

Your answer is in your contract.

[Dendrek]

No, I'm intentionally cutting thru all the bullshit you are trying to throw up to justify their actions and asking a brutally simple question that is the ROOT cause of their situation. Now, answer the question.

You answer mine first.

Would it be ok for a business to write a clause into its contract that would make a person their indentured servant if they failed to meet the other obligations of that contract, and then have the full weight of the US government enforce that contract?

If you can ask ridiculously loaded questions, I can too. And if you can ignore those questions (as you will obviously do in this case), I can too. Any more stupid music you'd like us both tap dance to?

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Your answer is in your contract.

Except no business could ever write that clause into the contract and hope to have the government uphold it.

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Yes, yes and yes. This is why you take contracts home, read them through and talk with soldiers to know if you're willing to go through with it. It's called being responsible for your actions.

That's precisely why I said I didn't care about certain posters' opinions. That second yes is ridiculous and no reasonable person would ever say it.

[Deleted]

No, I'm intentionally cutting thru all the bullshit you are trying to throw up to justify their actions and asking a brutally simple question that is the ROOT cause of their situation. Now, answer the question. Not to mention I'm curious why you are harping on me... I am more than willing to let them stay in Canada, and I'm not calling for their imprisonment or their deaths. So, exactly why are you haranguing me?

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Your answer is in your contract.

Okay, so lets further that question, do you think it is fine for employers to be able to define as breach of contract as a crime punishable with imprisonment? Now I completely understand that these are very different jobs that we're dealing with, with one that has much more at stake and import of the tasks it deals with, so it could use extra protection to ensure that it isn't left shafted by sudden absences. That's why the military needs more protection. Im not siding with these guys, I'm just interested in why people feel that these responses are justified. Especially those who seem to think that deserters should be shot.

[Deleted]

That's precisely why I said I didn't care about certain posters' opinions. That second yes is ridiculous and no reasonable person would ever say it.

Sounds like you need a echo chamber to feel comfortable.

[Seranthor]

You answer mine first.

Would it be ok for a business to write a clause into its contract that would make a person their indentured servant if they failed to meet the other obligations of that contract, and then have the full weight of the US government enforce that contract?
.

Your question has two parts, so I'll address each individually, then as a whole.

1) If you believe a contract is invalid, then challenge the thing in court. Dont be a fucking chickenshit and desert.

2) Enforcement of contracts, The LAW, (the US government, and by extention the state governments) does enforce contract law... So, to answer your question, YES.

3) Again, Yes.

Now, I await your answers.

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Okay, so lets further that question, do you think it is fine for employers to be able to define as breach of contract as a crime punishable with imprisonment? Now I completely understand that these are very different jobs that we're dealing with, with one that has much more at stake and import of the tasks it deals with, so it could use extra protection to ensure that it isn't left shafted by sudden absences. That's why the military needs more protection. Im not siding with these guys, I'm just interested in why people feel that these responses are justified. Especially those who seem to think that deserters should be shot.

I never said they needed shot... I dont even advocate prison for them... So, tell me again why you are asking me if they should be imprisoned? Did I say somewhere that they should?

[GrinningMan]

Your question has two parts, so I'll address each individually, then as a whole.

1) If you believe a contract is invalid, then challenge the thing in court. Dont be a fucking chickenshit and desert.

2) Enforcement of contracts, The LAW, (the US government, and by extention the state governments) does enforce contract law... So, to answer your question, YES.

3) Again, Yes.

Now, I await your answers.

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I never said they needed shot... I dont even advocate prison for them... So, tell me again why you are asking me if they should be imprisoned? Did I say somewhere that they should?

Seriously, at the very least you could try to negotiate the terms out of that contract. There's a good reason you take the contract home and go over it with a lawyer or at least with the help of google.

If you saw a clause with 'indentured servitude' within it, you can take a big red pen and mark straight through it. When you sign a contract, you say 'I am okay with all of this'. If you aren't, you tell them you aren't and if they are willing to make a conscession, it'll happen. If you can't agree? Guess what, you can find another job! One that doesn't require you to agree to such terms.