[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Extremities]

I only tanked M Mannoroth on last farm and sat out the rest tweaking my DK WeakAuras since I just couldn't bear to play this spec any more than I had to in it's current state. Hopefully the artifact traits change game play to a more interesting direction.

Mitigation-wise it was boring as fuck, I only once dropped dangerously low, eating all 3 hits from Empowered Glaive-Combo while suffering from Gripping Shadows so my health actually dipped from hugging the wall during stun and not the combo itself. The only "tank-play" I considered having done was taunting the boss at the right time and making sure I hit an extra ISB for the AM buff just before a combo. Making sure I didn't cap charges was far from interesting and I think I saw red stagger rise high enough to be a problem a total of three times (so 3 purifies).

Not having CE or at least even Dizzying Haze for ranged pulling on trash is beyond retarded as well. I guess we had that coming though.

TL;DR; Theme and animations improved, so guess we got our #classfantasy fixed, but the game play sure does feel boring at best, at least for now.

I agree man. Gameplay wise it's a serious step backwards and don't get me started on our self healing... or a serious lack there of.

[fringemoo]

I have a few issues with the spec:

1. It's spammy, the major contributor to the issue is the fact that BoS is on 3s cooldown. It basically dictates an extremely tight 'rotation'. Changing this to a reasonable number and modifying the ability's power should remove the issue. The problem is compound with TP which is supposed to be your 'filler' but can't really be used when you have to BS every 3 seconds.

2. The pseudo cooldown on the ISB/purify is apparently shared, you can't purify if you ISBed within 1s-1.5s, I'm not sure if their intent was not to have you 'waste' charges but the implementation is flawed, the CD shouldn't be shared. It's ok-ish to have a separate one for ISB and purify, truthfully I would prefer no CD at all.

3. Pressing purify is extremely unsatisfying from the psychological point of view but not just, I noticed there are times when you are taking heavy physical damage you press purify and it's instantly back to where it was and it makes sense.

4. It would be a nightmare to balance the spec mitigation wise, there are some situation where having close to 90% instant damage reduction would be extremely good. At others though with continuous damage intake constantly paying the stagger debt and still taking damage would just be unmanageable.

[Rude Hero]

Anyone have data from the beta in terms of base dodge & mastery levels in raid-ready gear in legion?

Calculated out actual effective dodge rates based on those values, am curious as to what we'll be sitting at in the emerald dream/nighthold

[Azaranth]

I still don't get how dodge fits the theme of a drunken brawler. Drunks are slower and less agile than a sober fighter.

The literal inspiration for our class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Df0SiV4PbI

[Hobbs]

The literal inspiration for our class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Df0SiV4PbI

Haha that's amazing. But yeah I get where the class comes from and understand that a drunken master is a pretty deeply rooted trope. Nonetheless, I still stand by my criticism that dodge doesn't fit that well. Even if there's an agile drunken master like that character, the point remains that he would be more agile when sober. I think stagger and parry is really where the core of the spec should be but meh, not a hill worth dying on.

[Azaranth]

Even if there's an agile drunken master like that character, the point remains that he would be more agile when sober.

In a game with dragons and warewolves, your complaint is that the effects of alcohol aren't realistic enough?

[keqe]

Not sure if this information is in any way useful but Orb expiring can proc trinket (Anzu in my case). So possibly the orbs can by walking to them.

[Radio]

Haha that's amazing. But yeah I get where the class comes from and understand that a drunken master is a pretty deeply rooted trope. Nonetheless, I still stand by my criticism that dodge doesn't fit that well. Even if there's an agile drunken master like that character, the point remains that he would be more agile when sober. I think stagger and parry is really where the core of the spec should be but meh, not a hill worth dying on.

You don't think that a monk should be able to dodge effectively while drunk, but you expect him to be able to parry accurately?

[Deleted]

I have a few issues with the spec:

1. It's spammy, the major contributor to the issue is the fact that BoS is on 3s cooldown. It basically dictates an extremely tight 'rotation'. Changing this to a reasonable number and modifying the ability's power should remove the issue. The problem is compound with TP which is supposed to be your 'filler' but can't really be used when you have to BS every 3 seconds.

2. The pseudo cooldown on the ISB/purify is apparently shared, you can't purify if you ISBed within 1s-1.5s, I'm not sure if their intent was not to have you 'waste' charges but the implementation is flawed, the CD shouldn't be shared. It's ok-ish to have a separate one for ISB and purify, truthfully I would prefer no CD at all.

3. Pressing purify is extremely unsatisfying from the psychological point of view but not just, I noticed there are times when you are taking heavy physical damage you press purify and it's instantly back to where it was and it makes sense.

4. It would be a nightmare to balance the spec mitigation wise, there are some situation where having close to 90% instant damage reduction would be extremely good. At others though with continuous damage intake constantly paying the stagger debt and still taking damage would just be unmanageable.

1: Most people are complaining they do not have enough to press you say the opposite? In my opinion the change from "spamming one ability as filler(TP)" to "weaving multiple small CDs" is a good one but then again thats just opinion, I like the new basic rotation more than the old, even more so with Blackout Combo.

2: This is just flatout wrong, sorry. ISB has a pseudo CD of about 1 second and PB has a pseudo CD of about one second but they are not shared, you can do ISB->PB in the same moment.

3: I get this feeling. I had the same feeling in the beginning but after some time you get used to it. after All removing half of 2mil stagger is about the same as removing 100% of 1mil stagger. It is a bit annoying to not beeing able to freeze your hp completly but that is more the new tank design than monk design.
It also sucks to not clear it after combat but will see if they change something about that. Is a pain in the ass with Invisibility potion and Water strider.

4: The bigger problem I am seeing balance wise is that you can get alot DR out of your brews if used good, while getting nothing out of them if used Bad. Making the monk once again scale very well with skill. Which I like very much, don't get me wrong, but this means that if they balance him for the average player they will be strong on high skill level. But if they balance him for high skill level he will be bad for new players.

Overall:
Again personal opinion, but I like the monk changes even so I was very skeptical at first. If you don't like it, maybe give it some more time + artefact before you decide to not like it. (You do however not look like the player who gives up on monk just now )

[Hobbs]

In a game with dragons and warewolves, your complaint is that the effects of alcohol aren't realistic enough?

You trying to tell me dragons and werewolves aren't real?

You don't think that a monk should be able to dodge effectively while drunk, but you expect him to be able to parry accurately?

Yeah, in my mind I see barely deflecting blows as easier than completely avoiding/dodging them. Seems you could deflect something with a lower reaction time than outright moving your whole body away from it. Just to reiterate though, not a hill I'd die on.

[fringemoo]

1: Most people are complaining they do not have enough to press you say the opposite? In my opinion the change from "spamming one ability as filler(TP)" to "weaving multiple small CDs" is a good one but then again thats just opinion, I like the new basic rotation more than the old, even more so with Blackout Combo.

That's actually not the opposite, because BS has such a short CD you're boxed into a very tight rotation that doesn't allow for many other abilities in between. If they change BS tomorrow to be 7s cd you'll actually have more buttons to press not less, not only that but energy management would become relevant again because you can actually fit several TPs.

This is just flatout wrong, sorry. ISB has a pseudo CD of about 1 second and PB has a pseudo CD of about one second but they are not shared, you can do ISB->PB in the same moment.

Looks like I just have fat fingers, since PB shares the same key as ISB for me, just shifted.

It's hard to say how viable monks would be, since the current content just doesn't do enough damage, my biggest pet peeve is #1 though, I tried using RJW and I just couldn't fit it in between the other buttons, again simply because BS is always in the way.

[keqe]

That's actually not the opposite, because BS has such a short CD you're boxed into a very tight rotation that doesn't allow for many other abilities in between. If they change BS tomorrow to be 7s cd you'll actually have more buttons to press not less, not only that but energy management would become relevant again because you can actually fit several TPs.


Looks like I just have fat fingers, since PB shares the same key as ISB for me, just shifted.

It's hard to say how viable monks would be, since the current content just doesn't do enough damage, my biggest pet peeve is #1 though, I tried using RJW and I just couldn't fit it in between the other buttons, again simply because BS is always in the way.

If BoS was changed to 7s CD, what else could you press? Already if you don't pick RJW and you don't have ridiculous haste you end up using BoS and other abilities on CD and not capping energy. So BoS having more CD would just lead to waiting for energy.

Sure, it would lead to energy management but not more varied use of abilities nor more interesting rotation.

[celinamuna]

In case anyone still thinking that Crit > Vers
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

[fringemoo]

If BoS was changed to 7s CD, what else could you press? Already if you don't pick RJW and you don't have ridiculous haste you end up using BoS and other abilities on CD and not capping energy. So BoS having more CD would just lead to waiting for energy.

Sure, it would lead to energy management but not more varied use of abilities nor more interesting rotation.

I'm not sure I follow, I would pick RJW, and have an option to actually TP more and RJW, essentially having BS on 7s would free up ~2 gcds for TP, assuming you have the energy for them. How is it more varied when every third gcd is spent on the same button, and you can barely fit RJW, and that is assuming you don't use the globals on other things. I'm not sure that 7 is the magic number but it feels like 3s is definetely not.

Actually even 5s would work, at the moment you just don't have globals.

[keqe]

I'm not sure I follow, I would pick RJW, and have an option to actually TP more and RJW, essentially having BS on 7s would free up ~2 gcds for TP, assuming you have the energy for them. How is it more varied when every third gcd is spent on the same button, and you can barely fit RJW, and that is assuming you don't use the globals on other things. I'm not sure that 7 is the magic number but it feels like 3s is definetely not.

Actually even 5s would work, at the moment you just don't have globals.

Problem is that without RJW the rotation would be extremely slow and you'd end up just waiting for energy unable to do anything. And with it you just get to.. Tiger palm more? (if even that considering energy). Pressing 1 button back to back is more interesting?

I am at 17% haste on pre-patch which is medium amount of haste. And I when I use Blackout Combo for Breath of Fire (even more globals used) I still can use BoS/KS/BoF on CD and RJW almost on CD (and that just because of stuff coming from CD at the same time) and not cap energy. Your idea would just lead to energy starving nothing else.

[arcuro]

You trying to tell me dragons and werewolves aren't real?



Yeah, in my mind I see barely deflecting blows as easier than completely avoiding/dodging them. Seems you could deflect something with a lower reaction time than outright moving your whole body away from it. Just to reiterate though, not a hill I'd die on.

you are looking from the wrong direction.
parring something needs good timing and reflexes which you lack when you are drunken. but imagin your oponent is drunk. you cant predict his movements at all if you think he will stagger to the right your drunken opponent just stand still or stagger to the left or backwards... hance you miss your predicted blow.

thats what drunken master is about: you absolutly cant read your opponents movement. it is not about YOU dodging on purpose

[fringemoo]

Problem is that without RJW the rotation would be extremely slow and you'd end up just waiting for energy unable to do anything. And with it you just get to.. Tiger palm more? (if even that considering energy). Pressing 1 button back to back is more interesting?

I am at 17% haste on pre-patch which is medium amount of haste. And I when I use Blackout Combo for Breath of Fire (even more globals used) I still can use BoS/KS/BoF on CD and RJW almost on CD (and that just because of stuff coming from CD at the same time) and not cap energy. Your idea would just lead to energy starving nothing else.

Perhaps here lies the problem, I'm at ~30% haste, I don't have GCDs for RJW and I can't dump enough energy. I think in legion even in close to starter gear at 110 you are likely to have my levels of haste due to the rating scaling changes.

Consider the following, say you had no cooldown on BS, with this 'rotation' you always have something to press, to the exclusion of everything else apart from KS. Obviously a 3s CD isn't the same but it does follow the same path, if BS is on a short cooldown it automatically bumps everything else down.

Not sure how having BS to press every 3s makes the rotation better, I would argue that pressing TP would (due to it's interactin with brews and energy).

[keqe]

Perhaps here lies the problem, I'm at ~30% haste, I don't have GCDs for RJW and I can't dump enough energy. I think in legion even in close to starter gear at 110 you are likely to have my levels of haste due to the rating scaling changes.

Consider the following, say you had no cooldown on BS, with this 'rotation' you always have something to press, to the exclusion of everything else apart from KS. Obviously a 3s CD isn't the same but it does follow the same path, if BS is on a short cooldown it automatically bumps everything else down.

Not sure how having BS to press every 3s makes the rotation better, I would argue that pressing TP would (due to it's interactin with brews and energy).

At that point it is probably wise to just forget about RJW and just use Special Delivery. This is probably somewhat intended. You being unable to use RJW is less about BoS and more about just energy regenerating at ridiculous pace that you have to tiger palm too often to not cap.

But I don't think 30% haste is that easy to get in Legion. Ratings don't grow as exponentially as they did before and already at 850 ilvl with balanced secondary stats (with haste food/enchants) I got 16% haste. So with Legion Raid gear and assuming you actually get gear with mostly haste you can probably end up with 25% maybe in first tier during progress.

If BoS had no CD, my rotation (outside of BoS combo abuse) would be about the same at my haste level. I use BoS as much as I can while also keeping energy not capped and using other abilities on CD.

[stross01]

Perhaps here lies the problem, I'm at ~30% haste, I don't have GCDs for RJW and I can't dump enough energy. I think in legion even in close to starter gear at 110 you are likely to have my levels of haste due to the rating scaling changes.

Consider the following, say you had no cooldown on BS, with this 'rotation' you always have something to press, to the exclusion of everything else apart from KS. Obviously a 3s CD isn't the same but it does follow the same path, if BS is on a short cooldown it automatically bumps everything else down.

Not sure how having BS to press every 3s makes the rotation better, I would argue that pressing TP would (due to it's interactin with brews and energy).

I'm with you here. I'm at 20% haste and find myself capping for a moment trying to keep every ability on CD.

Legendary chest doesn't help the situation.

[Raakel]

Went Timewalking yesterday with my BM tanking for the first time since pre patch. Compared to the Druid who tanked before I felt quite squishy and got a few heart attacks when my brews where on CD. Overall the gameplay felt a lot like the old enhance shaman - hit what's off CD and buff / cleanse with the two brews. I'm quite undecided if I like it or not. It needs a few more passes but initially it felt a lot less fun than before. The old BM had so many cool gimmicks that you could use to your advantage. The artifact traits will help to be more sustained compared to pre patch but there won't be anything changing the playstyle. Overall I don't like the feeling of the kind of WoD Shaman rotation just yet.