Josh Mosqueira leaves D3

[Coldkil]

I agree to an extent, but long term objectives and ARPGs don't easily go together.

Here's what i don't agree with you - while the rest i'm pretty much on the same wavelenght. Also i feel i need to explain better why i think paragon/caldesann are "useless".

D1/D2 had a long term objective - and it was gearing your character to the fullest, or reach level 99 (which wasn't required) and a lot of people kept running the game for that. It worked pretty well in my opinion. Also lots of other ARPGs have long term gameplay via other types of content (like Torchlight 2 or PoE maps) and i don't see them going bad either.

D3 has a long term content type - the GRs. However they lack some sort of purpose which isn't tied to "beat" something. All above examples didn't have nothing to do with this kind of challenge, you just played because your character got better via stats or loot - which is the core of the game imho.

The problem in current D3 is that character power is obtained way too fast and easy, and a soft cap can be reached in no time (while hard cap is a long journey). GRs are not the kind of content people want to run over and over simply because there's very few to gain from them - +5 mainstat or +1 gem level doesn't change much what you do. I'm considering baseline levels up to 800 because anyone with a very short playtime can reach that. I'mnot doing this because i'm done with journey even before i can reach that level (can you see my point?).

D3 is all around fast gameplay - the problem is that it dragged everything else with it. GRs for the sake of higher GRs is not something that appeals many people. Most people don't even complete the journey, which takes very little effort.

I can agree that ladder isn't everything. I agree that one wants more paragon and stats for getting more powerful and beating is own records - but even beating them what brings you apart personal satisfaction? It's completely fine for me, but i simply don't see the point.

I'll put down an example that i think i wrote already here oir on dfans (or both - i don't remeber).

Farming monsters of certain types (beasts, undead, demons) powers up an item you find via a cube-like quest (or slightly longer). Once the item is fully powered up, you can use it to open a portal to /summon a boss of that monster type. Once defeated, it can drop a specific item reward - it may be a cosmetic, some kind of ragent to craft specific items or a special legendary that "unlocks" a new build due to its power. The object power is depleted and you can start farming again for a leveled up boss version (will take more time to fill the bar).

The bar stays filled as xp does - it doesn't reset with session nor have timers or such.

I had also an idea on how drops would work (i had in mind cosmetic rewards only):different items are on different tiers (5 levels?); every level boosts the chances to drop the related tier item, reaching 100% when you reach the first level of the next tier (beat lvl5 boss and doesn't drop, lvl 6 drops the item 100% since you've "beaten" the tier) and goes one with the new items.
It may work the same for special legendaries, would be different with reagents until also reagents are tiered (1st tier drops X reagent for Y craft and so on).

This is the idea i have of long term content. Something i can play over and over and it's not tied to some sort of timer to beat. I can log in, farm for hours or 2 hours a week and i'll always progress towards a goal which is more tangible than a timestamp.

This would work also with seasons in mind; either you make them character-only (which seems just better themed for me) or make it account wide with seasonal characters having their progress reset and manage the whole thing like paragons (total xp will be added to non season).
Future patches with power creep can simply add more levels and more tiers.

[yasiru]

Here's what i don't agree with you - while the rest i'm pretty much on the same wavelenght. Also i feel i need to explain better why i think paragon/caldesann are "useless".

D1/D2 had a long term objective - and it was gearing your character to the fullest, or reach level 99 (which wasn't required) and a lot of people kept running the game for that. It worked pretty well in my opinion. Also lots of other ARPGs have long term gameplay via other types of content (like Torchlight 2 or PoE maps) and i don't see them going bad either.

D3 has a long term content type - the GRs. However they lack some sort of purpose which isn't tied to "beat" something. All above examples didn't have nothing to do with this kind of challenge, you just played because your character got better via stats or loot - which is the core of the game imho.

The problem in current D3 is that character power is obtained way too fast and easy, and a soft cap can be reached in no time (while hard cap is a long journey). GRs are not the kind of content people want to run over and over simply because there's very few to gain from them - +5 mainstat or +1 gem level doesn't change much what you do. I'm considering baseline levels up to 800 because anyone with a very short playtime can reach that. I'mnot doing this because i'm done with journey even before i can reach that level (can you see my point?).

D3 is all around fast gameplay - the problem is that it dragged everything else with it. GRs for the sake of higher GRs is not something that appeals many people. Most people don't even complete the journey, which takes very little effort.

I can agree that ladder isn't everything. I agree that one wants more paragon and stats for getting more powerful and beating is own records - but even beating them what brings you apart personal satisfaction? It's completely fine for me, but i simply don't see the point.

I'll put down an example that i think i wrote already here oir on dfans (or both - i don't remeber).

Farming monsters of certain types (beasts, undead, demons) powers up an item you find via a cube-like quest (or slightly longer). Once the item is fully powered up, you can use it to open a portal to /summon a boss of that monster type. Once defeated, it can drop a specific item reward - it may be a cosmetic, some kind of ragent to craft specific items or a special legendary that "unlocks" a new build due to its power. The object power is depleted and you can start farming again for a leveled up boss version (will take more time to fill the bar).

The bar stays filled as xp does - it doesn't reset with session nor have timers or such.

I had also an idea on how drops would work (i had in mind cosmetic rewards only):different items are on different tiers (5 levels?); every level boosts the chances to drop the related tier item, reaching 100% when you reach the first level of the next tier (beat lvl5 boss and doesn't drop, lvl 6 drops the item 100% since you've "beaten" the tier) and goes one with the new items.
It may work the same for special legendaries, would be different with reagents until also reagents are tiered (1st tier drops X reagent for Y craft and so on).

This is the idea i have of long term content. Something i can play over and over and it's not tied to some sort of timer to beat. I can log in, farm for hours or 2 hours a week and i'll always progress towards a goal which is more tangible than a timestamp.

This would work also with seasons in mind; either you make them character-only (which seems just better themed for me) or make it account wide with seasonal characters having their progress reset and manage the whole thing like paragons (total xp will be added to non season).
Future patches with power creep can simply add more levels and more tiers.

I agree with part of your points but again you're just sort of proving my point. D1/D2 gearing felt like a long-term goal only because it took longer to find the items you desired, which is an "inflated" goal, it isn't a set goal put in the game like D3's greater rifts. I wholeheartedly agree with you that gearing is too fast in D3 though, absolutely. But again, you said the long-term goal of D1/D2 was gearing, so yes then you could compare that to D3's hardcap of gearing, not soft. So the item hunt goal in D3 isn't to find new items, but to find better versions of the same items (ancients, better stats). Sure it's boring, but it's still there.

You could do anything you wanted in D2 without having exactly the items you needed/desired, so getting them was just added flavor, which I guess is why people think of that as long-term playability. Actually I won't disagree with that, it was cool finding that new piece to start a new build with. But if you kept that item on your current character what is there to do then....nothing really. You are still continuing to do the same Baal/Pundle/Pit/etc. runs that you always did, with no new challenge/difficulty. At least with D3 you could do a higher grift or something; it's not much I grant you, but it's still more than D2. So I finally found that runeword on my pally! Yay, now I can run the pit even faster... For me, I don't see the point, just like you don't running greater rifts with a little extra stats or gem lvls; it's all just a point of view. It basically just boils down to why you enjoy playing each game, which is different for everybody. It just sounds like our ideas of fun in this style of game are different which is perfectly fine, and I'm sure something that Blizz wants to strive for. The item hunt does feel more rewarding, but I grew out of that and now it feels more rewarding for me to be able to complete a higher lvl challenge along with finding a better rolled item. In actuality though, D3 has an actual, planned increasing goal that D1/D2 never had; it's just whether or not you like it...

And don't get me started on getting to 99, that was just run Baal over and over and over and over and over.......

I do like your idea of adding that xp bar/goal event. It sounds like it would be something very easy to implement on their part to as you basically just described a longer version of doing the Ubers for a hellfire. Would be fun to try. But again, once you get those 10-20 new cosmetic items, are you going to keep doing them? Doubtful... Kind of like set dungeons in D3 too though, once you do one are you going to repeat it? Again, doubtful...

I do like the fact though that Blizz IS trying to add new features and things to do in D3. At least they are trying to grow the game...

[Coldkil]

-snip-

Fair points. Maybe it's just me not caring much about the GRs - i'd run them much more if i knew i could get something differemnt from a timestamp from them. Agree also on the D2 reasonings.

I think most of the gripe comes form the fact that once you're geared for a build (either yours or taken from a guide) you feel "done" and what is left is racing into GRs over and over. Maybe having a non-tangible reward instead of an item you actually put to use directly is something less appealing for players. I don't really know, adnd as you said we're falling into the personal opinions/tastes.

As for the "longubers": they can simply add more levels, more tiers and more bosses. Which boils down into adding more items to the game to unlock more builds, just takes a different path to obtain them. Just brainstorming.

[yasiru]

Fair points. Maybe it's just me not caring much about the GRs - i'd run them much more if i knew i could get something differemnt from a timestamp from them. Agree also on the D2 reasonings.

I think most of the gripe comes form the fact that once you're geared for a build (either yours or taken from a guide) you feel "done" and what is left is racing into GRs over and over. Maybe having a non-tangible reward instead of an item you actually put to use directly is something less appealing for players. I don't really know, adnd as you said we're falling into the personal opinions/tastes.

As for the "longubers": they can simply add more levels, more tiers and more bosses. Which boils down into adding more items to the game to unlock more builds, just takes a different path to obtain them. Just brainstorming.

Agreed. Thanks for the continued, non-antagonizing discussion. Keep the ideas coming...

[Coldkil]

Agreed. Thanks for the continued, non-antagonizing discussion. Keep the ideas coming...

Aren't forums meant to be like this? XD

Another "cheap" way of putting other stuff to do is a rework of the trial mode. IIRC this idea was already brought on by someone else, but the idea is to expand the trial realm and make it more structured, and changing it into some sort of "survival" mode.

Basically you kill waves of monsters in a sort of battleground; the goal could be to get X points before the timer or to reach some sort of "clickable" objective - basically kill all the bad things. When wave ends a miniboss spawns and you get some rewards. Every X wave levels a boss spawns and killing him lets you choose to retreat and get some good stuff (specific reagents/legendaries/cosmetics - i don't know) or to stay there for higher rewards.

The point is that it doesn't matter how many waves you do, but the level of the monsters scales compared on how you beat last wave - like trials did. This means that if you're eared, you can skip lots of levels to get directly on challenging content.

This one is slightly less structured and may be too si milar to GRs.