I Had More Spells at Level 60.....

[Deleted]

Level one characters have 6 page spellbooks to scroll through..?

Also just because someone has played a class for a long time doesn't mean they can't have a casual attitude. Why is it a problem if someone isn't playing their class to its fullest potential?

Level 1 characters? Since when were we talking about-..... aw right.
I feel like you are just trying to troll me here. Have a nice day tho~

[klaps_05]

I made this list of all specs in Legion(level 50 honor, max level chars, maxed out artifact) so you can have a look:

- VERY image heavy -

http://imgur.com/a/ya9fD

So I would say with a few minor exceptions like fury warriors the game looks much better as you will use almost if not all spells in any scenarios(pvp/pve)

ps. i cant say this enough, but specs like outlaw, unholy, demo are so fucking fun and pvp feels like a nice balance of both proactive and reactive play, compared to the total reactive play in the last few expansions. i like for example that outlaw doesnt have evasion and the rng from roll the bones makes the class incredibly fun - i have never been frustrated that i didnt get a specific buff, because all of the buffs serve a purpose and your playstyle changes instantly between the buffs...and when u get all 6 u just turn to the healer

[shoegazing]

Man, I am glad I used Water Walking and Path of Frost in PvP. Same with Water Breathing, oh and Far Sight.

Literally every single spell you just mentioned has applications in PvP.

You've never seen teams use Water Walking or Path of Frost to beat the other team to the Blacksmith on Arathi Basin? You've never seen people use Far Sight to call out enemy positions and movements on Arathi Basin, Alterac Valley, Isle of Conquest, Ashran, etc?

Even Water Breathing was used not only in World PvP but also as dispel coverage against enemy purges, with high level warlocks even reapplying it at critical moments to make it for the harder team to purge important cooldowns like Blessing of Protection.

- - - Updated - - -

Level 1 characters? Since when were we talking about-..... aw right.
I feel like you are just trying to troll me here. Have a nice day tho~

You are the one who brought up new players having a difficult time scrolling through 6 page spellbooks and taking it all in.

So I'll ask you again, what class at level 1 has a 6 page spellbook to scroll through?

Who exactly is the troll here?

[Pull My Finger]

Now that the patch is out, I had the opportunity to spend some time with my favorite classes, put them through their paces, do some content and just get a feel for the changes. And the one thing that's become apparent is that most of the playstyles are very well done and very engaging.

When you actually PLAY the stuff instead of just sitting around whining in forums, you realize that even though some specs are designed around just a few core abilities, they only look shallow on the surface. The mechanics actually have surprising depth when you're out there in real practical situations and you're trying to do it RIGHT.

I've got my hands full. I don't need another 12 spells on my action bar. What for? To look at colorful little icons? Get real. I can't take the prune whiners seriously in any way. I really think these people should start thinking, and making real practical experiences FIRST and talk later. It's ridiculous. It's so obvious that this is a camp of people who are just paranoid about changes and about having things "taken away" from them by "the man". They log in, open up their spellbook and go: hurr ... durr. 'sis so much less spelz heir. Stufz gone! Poor me! And that's where the thought process ends. That's the quality of their opinion.

[shoegazing]

Now that the patch is out, I had the opportunity to spend some time with my favorite classes, put them through their paces, do some content and just get a feel for the changes. And the one thing that's become apparent is that most of the playstyles are very well done and very engaging.

When you actually PLAY the stuff instead of just sitting around whining in forums, you realize that even though some specs are designed around just a few core abilities, they only look shallow on the surface. The mechanics actually have surprising depth when you're out there in real practical situations and you're trying to do it RIGHT.

I've got my hands full. I don't need another 12 spells on my action bar. What for? To look at colorful little icons? Get real. I can't take the prune whiners seriously in any way. I really think these people should start thinking, and making real practical experiences FIRST and talk later. It's ridiculous. It's so obvious that this is a camp of people who are just paranoid about changes and about having things "taken away" from them by "the man". They log in, open up their spellbook and go: hurr ... durr. 'sis so much less spelz heir. Stufz gone! Poor me! And that's where the thought process ends. That's the quality of their opinion.

It feels like for many classes, the only part of the class that has any depth is the rotation.

"Nothing but the damage rotation" class design works for some types of content (PvEing a raid boss, for instance) but it does not work for every type of content.

WoW is a huge game with vastly diverse player base and playstyles. Just because the class design is working for players like you does not mean that it is working for other kinds of players.

[Deleted]

I've played the beta.

My teammates have played the beta.

My guildmates have played the beta.

It's a little better but not by much. It's still very linear and one dimensional.

I'm not a fan of pruning by any means, but having played more of my main (rogue) I'm thinking i'll be okay.. the rotations are challenging enough, easy to play hard to master.. as it should be.

[shoegazing]

I'm not a fan of pruning by any means, but having played more of my main (rogue) I'm thinking i'll be okay.. the rotations are challenging enough, easy to play hard to master.. as it should be.

No one in this thread is complaining about rotations.

Rotations aren't what was pruned.

[caervek]

You also have to think about the artifact weapons coming in legion. They will be giving more abilities.

You say this like it's a good thing...

If they have removed loads of abilities, removed loads of talents (and filled some of the spots with some of the removed abilities), removed all the glyphs, removed all the perks, etc. Then Artifact trees aren't actually adding anything to the game, just reducing the amount removed. It's mental that they are essentially marketing cut content as a selling point of the expansion and people are buying into it because ooh shiney >.>

[Zka]

I like the further pruning. You can't just keep adding spells without running out of comfortably keybindable space. Also, bosses got so much more complex, we really need to ease our rotations/procs to keep the combined gameplay complexity on a reasonable level.
They also have to consider the learning curve for new players. I've seen so many MMOs that offer terrible early game experience because of ability bloat.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I don't know about most of you but I actually used most of my abilities. I feel very broken as a Protection Paladin having only 5 damaging attacks. It's not very fun to cast Blessed Hammer every other ability.

What????

As Protection Paladin I'm using Blessed Hammer, Avengers Shield, Judgment, Shield of the Righteous, Blinding Light, and Consecration all very regularly, and that's before we even begin with all the defensive CDs, Rebuke, Divine Steed, heirloom trinket, legendary ring, OR any of the artifact and pvp abilities from Legion. I've already got 13 buttons I use regularly and there's still more to come.

[shoegazing]

I like the further pruning. You can't just keep adding spells without running out of comfortably keybindable space. Also, bosses got so much more complex, we really need to ease our rotations/procs to keep the combined gameplay complexity on a reasonable level.
They also have to consider the learning curve for new players. I've seen so many MMOs that offer terrible early game experience because of ability bloat.

No one here is saying Blizzard needed to add a bunch of new spells in Legion. We're saying they shouldn't remove many of the spells that they did remove.

Also there is more to this game than PvE raiding. OK, so encounter mechanics are more difficult to make up for classes being less complex? What about parts of the game without bosses, or where the 'boss' is other players who were also pruned?

As for the learning curve for new players, that's quite possibly the single worst argument that has been advanced in this entire thread. Have you played a low level character recently? They are incredibly simple and easy.

[Aceveda]

I like the further pruning. You can't just keep adding spells without running out of comfortably keybindable space. Also, bosses got so much more complex, we really need to ease our rotations/procs to keep the combined gameplay complexity on a reasonable level.
They also have to consider the learning curve for new players. I've seen so many MMOs that offer terrible early game experience because of ability bloat.

It's not about the rotations, but the utility and situational stuff. Like Shoegazer said, there's a HUGE amount of variety in playstyles, why should classes be designed for just one of the playstyles, and not for all of them like an MMORPG should?

When classes are designed to just kill raid bosses there's a problem. "Rotations are fine, so I'm fine with the pruning" Don't you realize how incredibly selfish you're being? You could just prune your own bars and leave everyone elses alone. Just because you don't want to bind Gouge/Blind, doesn't mean I want to lose what I've had in my toolkit for 12 years.

Not every ability needs to be used 100% of the time, not every ability needs to do damage/healing, not every ability should be keybinded for every player.

Putting existing baseline abilities like Spell Reflect or Grounding Totem in our "Brand new pvp talents" is just lazy by the devs, as they "might forget to tag a raid boss for reflect, so that ability is a better fit for the PvP system" despite having it baseline since TBC..

What if I want to use Spell Reflect or Cyclone vs mobs? What if I want to use poisons/traps regardless of my spec?

Classes are being killed off by the senseless pruning and "class fantasy", maybe you should open your eyes.

[Zka]

Classes are being killed off by the senseless pruning and "class fantasy", maybe you should open your eyes.

People have been whining about everything since release stating that their classes got killed by the most recent change and the game is dead. Guess how right they were. That's all I can say about who needs to open what.

[wooters]

2 pages where you use about 90% of the spells, better then 8 pages were you use 10%

the lock I have mained since 2005 is now a one or two trick pony no matter what I spec. literally useless in a lot of situations...how is that an improvement of the game..and a good player who NEVER have played wow could basically master all 3 specs in 30 minutes. just great

[Aceveda]

People have been whining about everything since release stating that their classes got killed by the most recent change and the game is dead. Guess how right they were. That's all I can say about who needs to open what.

And this expansion brings the most drastic changes of all of them. When you remove traps from non-surv Hunters, or Shocks/totems from Shamans, or poisons/CC from Rogues, then yes, they're killing off the original classes.

[shoegazing]

People have been whining about everything since release stating that their classes got killed by the most recent change and the game is dead. Guess how right they were. That's all I can say about who needs to open what.

Haha, you say that as if Blizzard is infallible and every decision they have ever made has been great for the game.

What has happened at any other time in this game's history is no guarantee of what will happen right now. Your argument isn't even logically sound, nor did it address the many numerous ways in which Aceveda dismantled your previous post.

It must be nice to be focused on the single type of content (raiding) that was the least negatively impacted by the latest ability pruned.

- - - Updated - - -

the lock I have mained since 2005 is now a one or two trick pony no matter what I spec. literally useless in a lot of situations...how is that an improvement of the game..and a good player who NEVER have played wow could basically master all 3 specs in 30 minutes. just great

I just started playing Warlock less than 24 hours ago, dude it is so easy to play lol. I pretty much put DoTs on people, occasionally use focus spell lock macro to interrupt a polymorph or cast fear on enemy healers if they come into my LoS, and... there's not much else to do here.

How is this going to keep anyone but a complete simpleton entertained until the next expansion releases?

[Deleted]

PvP required you to use 100% of your spells.
I personnally like the class changes, but that argument is wrong since you'd always use almost all of your abilities in a PvP situation

What? lol...

This isnt even remotely true

[Aceveda]

Speaking of Warlocks, when I think of them I think drains, curses, demons & fear. Warlocks used to have 6-7 curses, in Legion you get to choose just 1. IF you PvP. So you enter a match, decide which one of the curses you'd like to use, but you'll have no other curses to juggle between, there's no choice after the gates open.

Classes used to feel complete even when leveling up, now you're not even feeling close to complete at max level, even with full pvp talents & artifact.

[shoegazing]

Has anyone yet linked the golden times with the perfect roations / abilities of "back then when it was fun" and compared it to todays rotations / abilities so that we can see what the difference actually is?

Or linked a fun game that does it right in their opinion with a great number of spells / abilities to chose from?

I thought Subtlety Rogue in WoD was just about perfectly designed. I would add Shadow Walk to it and restore the PvP functionality of Tricks of the Trade, and make a few small nerfs (to Burst of Speed, to Feint/Elusiveness, and maybe to Gouge).

But yeah, Subtlety Rogue in WoD was just about the most perfect thing I have ever played in 12 years of being a rogue.

Not only did it have a really fun playstyle with a lot of depth in both PvP and raids, it was even a very fun spec to play for solo questing and grinding as you can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_oU4MtMz0I

[Pull My Finger]

WoW is a huge game with vastly diverse player base and playstyles. Just because the class design is working for players like you does not mean that it is working for other kinds of players.

It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with unqualified whining. The classes aren't "gutted" and there are enough spells on the action bar for anyone to press and feel engaged and satisfied. Every time I see these comments, it's always something like: bohoo, I have only 5 spells now ... I don't know where people are getting this idea from. They obviously didn't care to actually PLAY the game and form a opinion that's worth something.

All the specs I play have an arsenal of around 12 active abilities that are used regularly and a bunch of situational stuff on top of that. That's quite an array of useful stuff that has its place in the action. How much more do you need? GCD is a thing. And you're not in a vacuum all by yourself in the game world out there. "Less icons" doesn't automatically translate into "less depth" at all, but I can see how someone who doesn't have a practical idea of the gameplay would perceive it that way.

All my classes feel MORE thought out and MORE engaging than before, even if the action bars look a bit cleaner now. There's a ton of intelligent stuff going on under the hood. If one chooses to be oblivious to that and only expects to play whack-a-mole with a bunch of colorful icons, it's not a flaw in the design, but purposeful ignorance for the sake of it.

If people don't see it, then I don't know what they're doing. It seems they're being bozos who don't care to react to the actual gameplay at all. The abilities of your character are only one half of the gameplay depth, the other half is what happens in the environent and the encounters. If that's "not working" for these omnious "other" diversified parts of this huge game, then I wonder what other "types of content" we're talking about.

What kind of "depth" are we suddenly missing now that supposedly was in the game before?