I Had More Spells at Level 60.....

[wooters]

Some specs were pretty bloaty.

Enhancement shaman had to use 3 buttons to use an AoE. In what universe was that considered okay.

Frankly specs were in need of streamlining. If the feel of the spec can be done in 5 rotational buttons with a few Cooldowns why make it take more?

I'm all for having cleaner bars and not needing to have a bar addon just to hold all the spells I might use.

...because it is fun to have an advanced rotation to play around with. the wonderful achievement it is....when you finally master it, that is gift that keeps on giving.

I'm all for a simple base to every spec don`t get me wrong, so a new or unskilled gamer could also enjoy the game. but there should also have been a vast system to build on this, so a player then could evolve..and skilled players also would actually have fun with the gameplay in wow.

this is not the case now. the only aspect interesting in legion pve are boss mechanics. most classes are completely uninteresting to so many. and that is not particularly clever by blizz in game where building your toon is one of the key attractions. wows gameplay are a borefest

[Aceveda]

peopel complain about they lost to much and forget that with the artefakt and pvp talents there are enough new spells i like the pruning every specc feels now unique in th past only classes where unique now speccs are and thats great it fits the class fantasy

Artifact + PvP talents adds at most 3 abilities, wow that makes up for the loss of 15 abilities you lost in the prune.. /s

"Class fantasy" didn't make every class more unique, it's actually quite the opposite. e.g Enhance shamans no longer have shocks or totems baseline which a Shaman should have. They now have a different colored rage-bar and play like a Warrior

Class fantasy, am i right?

[Deleted]

You also made more decisions regarding your character when this game came out than since Cataclysm wiped away the talent trees.

How you build your character is not a feature of a MMORPG, it is the feature. Everything else is secondary even the gameplay itself is secondary to building your character, its the kind of stuff you think about when you are at work or school and couldnt wait to go home to play WoW or Diablo 2. We have all done it.


That is all but gone, our characters arent as much our own. You get to chose how your charge works at lvl 15 for Warriors, then you chose how you want to stun people, then how you want to regen health.


Most of the early "talents" are just as uninspired as the worst talents in Classic. I was way more excited to spend 5 talent points into Corruption to make it instant, then any early talents in the current game.

We are one more Legion 2.0 expansion from having as many active abilities as MOBA characters. If you went back in time during WotLK and made a topic and posted pictures "from the future" people would laugh you out of the building.

You think the old talent tree made you have more choice than we do now? Lol sure because theory crafting didn't make it so that you had a cookie cutter build.

[Fenixhart]

...because it is fun to have an advanced rotation to play around with. the wonderful achievement it is....when you finally master it, that is gift that keeps on giving.

I'm all for a simple base to every spec don`t get me wrong, so a new or unskilled gamer could also enjoy the game. but the there should have been a vast system to build on that so a player then could evolve..and skilled players also would have fun with the gameplay in wow.

this is not the case now. the only aspect interesting in legion are boss mechanics. most classes are completely uninteresting to many. and that is not particularly clever by blizz in game where building your toon is one of the obvious attractions

I'm sorry haveing to use 3 buttons what every other class could do in 1 is not called Advanced rotation it's called clunkly and dumb.

Having complex rotations is fine when you have simple mechanics to deal with. But we're long past the era of being considered a good raider because you could stand out of the bad stuff

[Deleted]

What? lol...

This isnt even remotely true

It is true, except if you take in account non-combat abilities that were never in the scope of the prune, which is dishonest.

[shoegazing]

It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with unqualified whining. The classes aren't "gutted" and there are enough spells on the action bar for anyone to press and feel engaged and satisfied. Every time I see these comments, it's always something like: bohoo, I have only 5 spells now ... I don't know where people are getting this idea from. They obviously didn't care to actually PLAY the game and form a opinion that's worth something.

All the specs I play have an arsenal of around 12 active abilities that are used regularly and a bunch of situational stuff on top of that. That's quite an array of useful stuff that has its place in the action. How much more do you need? GCD is a thing. And you're not in a vacuum all by yourself in the game world out there. "Less icons" doesn't automatically translate into "less depth" at all, but I can see how someone who doesn't have a practical idea of the gameplay would perceive it that way.

All my classes feel MORE thought out and MORE engaging than before, even if the action bars look a bit cleaner now. There's a ton of intelligent stuff going on under the hood. If one chooses to be oblivious to that and only expects to play whack-a-mole with a bunch of colorful icons, it's not a flaw in the design, but purposeful ignorance for the sake of it.

If people don't see it, then I don't know what they're doing. It seems they're being bozos who don't care to react to the actual gameplay at all. The abilities of your character are only one half of the gameplay depth, the other half is what happens in the environent and the encounters. If that's "not working" for these omnious "other" diversified parts of this huge game, then I wonder what other "types of content" we're talking about.

What kind of "depth" are we suddenly missing now that supposedly was in the game before?

What is your level of experience in rated PvP?

Again, I'll repeat that just because it's working for you in raids or in questing or whatever your preferred content, does not mean that it is working for other players in their preferred content.

PvP is now, moreso than ever before, very one dimensional. There are limited options for affecting the outcome of a match beyond "do more damage than the other guy" and that simply isn't very engaging in PvP. If all we cared about is damage we could just go beat up a target tummy.

You can keep calling me a bozo all you want but that doesn't make it true. I finished last season in the top 2% of the tryhard rated PvP ladder on multiple characters. I have a very advanced understanding of the game and I know what is and is not compelling gameplay for me.

[Silent One]

What legion feels like...



In all seriousness though, I took one look at Ret and warlocks, and have now fled to Guild Wars 2, might just give up on mmos, and Blizzard games all together.

[shoegazing]

I'm sorry haveing to use 3 buttons what every other class could do in 1 is not called Advanced rotation it's called clunkly and dumb.

Having complex rotations is fine when you have simple mechanics to deal with. But we're long past the era of being considered a good raider because you could stand out of the bad stuff

How lazy are you if you can't be asked to push more than 1 button for AoE?

And, this may come as a surprise to you, but only a minority of players participate in raiding. Seriously, there is a lot more to the game.

I have no doubt that the new classes feel fine in raids in many cases. That does not mean that they feel fine to play in other content.

[RelaZ]

Shoegazin has got the right idea.

Anyone who says that using only 10% of their spellbook was how the game used to be played (in a PvP setting) is absolutely retarded. Everything was used and had a purpose (in PvP). Albeit not being used in every single fight, everything was most certainly used.

OP is only using vanilla as a comparison, he's not saying he wants legacy or anything of the kind. He's just pointing out that we've gotten to a point where we now have less abilities than ever before (disregarding ranks there are still less abilities now than back then).

People are not complaining about damage rotations getting pruned (they havn't been pruned, generally). They're complaining about everything not damage related being pruned. As a Feral for example I lost Cyclone, Nature's Grasp, Hibernate, Soothe, Faerie Fire, Typhoon, Treants, Powershifting and off-heals/bear form defensives (depending on affinity) over the course of WoD/Legion. My spec is now only capable of two long cooldown stuns, an interrupt, roots and damage spam outside of a 3min burst window. Very deep and interesting gameplay indeed, jk.

Also in the few cases where new utility was added, it is in 95% or more cases (well numbers are obviously made up, but any decent PvPer will agree that it's somewhere in this area) absolutely retarded compared to what was available previously. (Burning Determination, Freezing Ammo, Freezing Arrow, Casting Circle, Shadowstrike etc).

To anyone saying "PvP talents and Artifact abilities will fix it!": Have you played the beta? Almost all PvP talents are passives and the Artifact abilities are only damage cooldowns. Damage rules superior in Legion. Just watch Minpojke or any decent PvPer on beta. You'll see they just run around and spam damage/healing for 5mins or so until one team simply outpressures the other team and forces a kill. Skilled CC-chains are unheard of, all comps play like WoD Turbo. It's incredibly boring.

[D3athsting]

It seems to me they are following the GW2/Wildstar path, fewer offensive/utility abilities and more focus on fast paced combat, i see a lot more off-gcd skills

[Makorus]

"Waah, all the specs feel the same!!!"

"Waah, all the specs are different!!!"

[wooters]

peopel complain about they lost to much and forget that with the artefakt and pvp talents there are enough new spells i like the pruning every specc feels now unique in th past only classes where unique now speccs are and thats great it fits the class fantasy

what I can`t begin to understand is why to so many actually thinks "unique/fits the class fantasy" and "interesting complex gameplay" are mutually exclusive ideas. like you can`t have one without dropping the other. its like blizzard fed you lot with the stupid spoon and you gobbled it all up

and no...the artifact doesn`t give anything to the gameplay. its only job is to gradually power up the toons..so subs think there are actually ongoing content..where there is none. that's it

[Deleted]

the lock I have mained since 2005 is now a one or two trick pony no matter what I spec. literally useless in a lot of situations...how is that an improvement of the game..and a good player who NEVER have played wow could basically master all 3 specs in 30 minutes. just great

I love these comments. If you mastered them in 30 minutes, no mistakes, perfect gameplay, let's see your logs. Let's see your world rank 1's. Let's see your event log. Let's see what you damaged. Let's see your contribution to the theory crafting. Oh yes you read one guide on Icy Veins, setup your UI, a 10 minutes dummy test and you have "mastered" it in 30 minutes.

I love people making these claims. All talk and nothing to back it up.

[Aceveda]

I love these comments. If you mastered them in 30 minutes, no mistakes, perfect gameplay, let's see your logs. Let's see your world rank 1's. Let's see your event log. Let's see what you damaged. Let's see your contribution to the theory crafting. Oh yes you read one guide on Icy Veins, setup your UI, a 10 minutes dummy test and you have "mastered" it in 30 minutes.

I love people making these claims. All talk and nothing to back it up.

Another poster assuming everyone are raiders. Hilarious.

[Aleksej89]

Isn't that what the affinity talent row is for? So you can have that taste of the other specs sprinkled in your main.

Affinity gives you basic rotational abilities.
For example for the feral afinity you get 3 basic damage spells.

No other stuff that made feral/bear deadly in pvp.

[shoegazing]

Also in the few cases where new utility was added, it is in 95% or more cases (well numbers are obviously made up, but any decent PvPer will agree that it's somewhere in this area) absolutely retarded compared to what was available previously. (Burning Determination, Freezing Ammo, Freezing Arrow, Casting Circle, Shadowstrike etc).

You get a A+.

Subtlety in WoD was such a cool and interesting spec.

Subtlety in Legion = "drool on Shadowstrike, collect points".

And don't even get me started on trapping (which had to be aimed, could be 'eaten' by standing on top of your healer, or disarmed by rogues, or broken with self damage by Shadow Word: Death, or...) vs. fire-and-forget Freezing Arrow which is very scripted and has extremely limited counterplay. There's no setup required any more and limited options for a skilled team to react and counter. There's really no reason not to just press the dang button on cooldown, lol...

[Aceveda]

Affinity gives you basic rotational abilities.
For example for the feral afinity you get 3 basic damage spells.

No other stuff that made feral/bear deadly in pvp.

Ahh yes, the affinity talents, allowing the former "Jack of all trades Druid class" to become "Jack of two trades" :^)

- - - Updated - - -

You get a A+.

Subtlety in WoD was such a cool and interesting spec.

Subtlety in Legion = "drool on Shadowstrike, collect points".

And don't even get me started on trapping (which had to be aimed, could be 'eaten' by standing on top of your healer, or disarmed by rogues, or broken with self damage by Shadow Word: Death, or...) vs. fire-and-forget Freezing Arrow which is very scripted and has extremely limited counterplay. There's no setup required any more and limited options for a skilled team to react and counter. There's really no reason not to just press the dang button on cooldown, lol...

Same goes for the new Spell Reflect/Grounding totem as they stop all casts instead of 1, no counterplay, just gotta wait it out. :^)

More dumb stuff: Holy Wrath & Divine Intervention..

[minteK917]

Once again people pretending they were playing in vanilla. No you did not use 100% of your spell book in pvp. Dont pretend you were using corruption rank 1 to 7 all the time. I guess you argue you used life tap 5 sometimes.

[RelaZ]

You get a A+.

Subtlety in WoD was such a cool and interesting spec.

Subtlety in Legion = "drool on Shadowstrike, collect points".

And don't even get me started on trapping (which had to be aimed, could be 'eaten' by standing on top of your healer, or disarmed by rogues, or broken with self damage by Shadow Word: Death, or...) vs. fire-and-forget Freezing Arrow which is very scripted and has extremely limited counterplay. There's no setup required any more and limited options for a skilled team to react and counter. There's really no reason not to just press the dang button on cooldown, lol...

Yeah well basically everyone with an arena rating above 2.3k+ will agree with everything you and Acevada have been saying.

Scatter+Trap actually took skill, then they casualized it into WoD version instant-trap (still aimed) and now we have the utterly and completely retarded Freezing Arrow.

I think Hunter CC describes the way the game has evolved overall since MoP very well. Getting more and more shit, and retardedly designed over time.

[Deleted]

Some specs were pretty bloaty.

Enhancement shaman had to use 3 buttons to use an AoE. In what universe was that considered okay.

Frankly specs were in need of streamlining. If the feel of the spec can be done in 5 rotational buttons with a few Cooldowns why make it take more?

I'm all for having cleaner bars and not needing to have a bar addon just to hold all the spells I might use.

I am on the same page. Wildstar has more complex rotations than WoW has ever had in any expansion but it only has 9 per LAS (and more than half of that was mostly utility). I find it embarrassing at this age, people fail to understand that more does not = complex. You can have complex rotations with only 4 or 5 abilities but it depends on how they are treated. The use of temp buffs and debuffs can make a rotation complex as an example.