[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[celinamuna]

If Block chance is being affected by Parry, couldn't you just take off a ton of crit gear and see your block chance increase? I do not see that happening on live. If I recall correctly, Parry has a footnote stating that the number displayed is "before diminishing returns". No clue why they would do half with DR and the other half without. Also, I think one of our hidden passives gives us a 50% multiplicative to our block chance. Why have something like that in the game if you will also have an incredibly harsh DR to block as well.

[Vergilius]

Speaking of which, why the fuck do we still have hidden passives.

[celinamuna]

Speaking of which, why the fuck do we still have hidden passives.

Cuz it makes a fun hide and seek game when you're trying to figure out wtf is wrong with your math.

[Deleted]

I join discussion and like to talk about Light of the Protector.

At least Icy-Veins and Wowhead guides tell to use it at 30-40% and treat it as a cooldown. Use it when you need it. I don't know is this general view on this forum and has there been discussion about it.

But I view it as a part of our AM, used frequently and often. Lotp has small cooldown and Righteous Protector and haste makes it even shorter.

If Lotp is used as a cooldown, heal is there reliably. But if used as AM, you are healing much more. In exactly six minute fight you get 24 Lotp casts, using rigid 15sec cooldown. If there is second delay, you get 23 casts. And if you delay more than 0,6sec each cast, you drop to 22 casts. If you delay more than 3,9sec 19 casts of Lotp, you drop to 18 casts. While you cannot predict reliably at what HP situation your Lotp comes of the cooldown, but since you aren't in full HP majority of the fight, you are going to cast it with HP missing. Sometimes you miss little HP, sometimes you miss lot HP and sometimes you miss half of your HP.

For example, if you cast only one Lotp per fight at 30%, you are healing less than two casts, one at 80% and second at 50%. The more health you have when you enter that damage heavy phase, the more likely you are going to survive it. The lower tanks health is, the more anxious and stressed are tank healers. And then they tend to make mistakes they wouldn't normaly make.

Blizzard has stated that they want healer mana matter and also that tanks health is decreasing slower. (Yet again these goals) But even now (or still) majority of damage comes from autoattacks (That is why Blessed Hammer is viable for damage reduction). Most tank deaths don't come from straight special attacks, they come from multiple autoattacks and then special ability. 10k heal is not 10k health in EH when mitigation comes along. This is old news, right?

But it seems it's not old news. I have heard that saving Lotp for 30-40% is done because it's that moment where it's needed/impactful/right thing to do. I find it difficult to believe that people that raid mythic cannot foretell 15sec beforehand when heavy damage phase will begin. So you can cast freely until you want it to be saved for period where heavy damage is bound to happen, then stop casting and wait 15sec and you have it. This is not optimal use in my mind though, and I would advice to cast Lotp at right away when cooldown finishes. I have also heard argument of keeping not casting Lotp because if chocolate hits the fan and smears white tuxedo, Lotp is there for those moments. Final Stand talent would be extremely more effective for those raw chocolate moments because while Lotp gets better lower your HP is, it's not strong enough to remedy situation. Lay on Hands or Divine Shield with Final Stand talent are powerful enough to turn tables on situation and cure chocolate meeting fan syndrome.

Time is cruel mistress and hindsight is extremely cruel thing. For example in this log there is single cast of Lotp.
(warcraftlogs.[removed .com and www for bypassing post no link limitation]/reports/dmQRNYT9V4fxAJWB#fight=14&type=damage-taken&view=events&start=4125562&end=4360823&source=12)
On 3min 55sec fight, meaning that, using strictly 15sec cooldown, there were 14,6 missed chances to cast Lotp. Lotp was used at 2:11 in fight, followed by 2:15 Lay on Hands, as Lotp was not enough to deal with very heavy damage.
One reason to not cast Lotp is argument that it won't be available during those damage heavy phases. This is correct and incorrect. Correct that you cannot predict completely when highest damage spike comes, but incorrect as you can predict when it's likely because boss timers tell when adds arrive, when Big Nasty Cast happens etc. Those heavy damage phases also lasts longer than 15sec so even if you cast Lotp just before it, its cooldown finishes before heavy damage phases ends.

Let gets hands dirty with earlier log.
How in my advice of Lotp usage would have played out during fight:
1. 24sec. Boss first melee attack.
2. 39sec. Spiked damage intake moment.
3. 54sec. Damage ramping up, quite high.
4. 1min 9sec. Death Brand cast at 58sec, damage intake very high.
5. 1min 24sec. Damage intake in middle of graph, decresing.
6. 1min 39sec. Very little damage, but some damage.
7. 1min 54sec. High damage intake spike.
8. 2min 9sec Highest damage intake spike
[Player casts Lotp at 2min 11sec and Lay on Hands at 2min 15sec]
9. 2min 24sec. High damage, but decresing on curve.
[Tanks swapped at 2:27]
10. 2min 39sec. Low damage intake, but some damage.
11. 2min 54sec. Low damage
12. 3min 9sec. Low damage
13. 3min 24sec. Low damage
[Player dies at 3:26]
14. 3min 39sec. Low damage.
15. 3min 54sec. Low damage.

Low damage intake kills too if there isn't enough healing. I suspect this was because another tank recieved heavy mauling so tank healers consenrated too heavily on other tank. Worth noting, since there were quite little damage in the end on one tank and very high damage on other, Hand of Protector talent would have been extremely useful to heal co-tank.

15 casts of Lotp. Even if reaction lag would shave last one away, I would have probably 13-14. And using only static 15sec cooldown. It would not be wonder if in real situation, taken haste and talents account that there would have been two casts very near or at those heavy damage phases

[OrcsRLame]

@Dion85 Isn't Righteous Protector shit? Last I checked it's Last Defender for survivability, Seraphim for big dick damage.

[madmonarch]

I suspect this was because another tank recieved heavy mauling so tank healers consenrated too heavily on other tank. Worth noting, since there were quite little damage in the end on one tank and very high damage on other, Hand of Protector talent would have been extremely useful to heal co-tank.

No, they just let the tank die of Source of Chaos and battleres him immediately to not deal with crystal.

[insomniac1969]

@Dion85 Isn't Righteous Protector shit? Last I checked it's Last Defender for survivability, Seraphim for big dick damage.

I would say Righteous Protector is better for boss fights, if you are not tanking multiple targets, as you have the ability to use your self heals more often during times of heavy damage.

[Rewyn]

I would say Righteous Protector is better for boss fights, if you are not tanking multiple targets, as you have the ability to use your self heals more often during times of heavy damage.

LotP also gets a not insignificant hot from the traits, and righteous protector I think also lowers the cd of avenging wrath unless I'm mistaken. I imagine it's the progression talent you will, seraphim being for farm.

[Sepelio]

Lotp gets a VERY INSIGNIFICANT hot from the trait, to the tune of roughly 10k hps, when you have a minimum of 2m hp it's irrelevant

[celinamuna]

Total HPS doesn't matter tho.
When i was testing sims i let lotp cast go off every time we were below 70% and 35%.
70% Resulted in more hps (slightly), but 35% resulted in MUCH better survivability.

This also lines up with my personal exp of "why would i heal myself for like 10% health when i'm at 70% and not in danger of dying, with healers around"

[Bearygood]

Right so I raided today

Felt like I was in LFR gear squishiest tank EU

I really really hate the changes

[Veyloris]

I join discussion and like to talk about Light of the Protector.

Total HPS doesn't matter tho.
When i was testing sims i let lotp cast go off every time we were below 70% and 35%.
70% Resulted in more hps (slightly), but 35% resulted in MUCH better survivability.

This also lines up with my personal exp of "why would i heal myself for like 10% health when i'm at 70% and not in danger of dying, with healers around"

Cel basically says it. Why place the value on number of casts instead of efficacy of casts?

Additionally, you can control when your health drops most of the time. When you're out of SotR charges and don't have horse up, you're going to drop. Use LotP then, don't just spam it on CD. I honestly can't think of a time where indiscriminately casting a defensive ability has been better than playing the game intelligently. If the argument is "people should use LotP more aggressively" - sure, it's a short CD and you can benefit a lot from casting it frequently. If the argument is "use LotP on CD", it's just not possible to be better than casting it intelligently. In any situation where casting it on CD is the best thing, that's what you'd be doing if you're playing properly, and any situation where that isn't the best strategy you'll have the ability to cast it as it is the best.


The point I'm making is that any decent player is already going to be casting the ability frequently when it's a good idea, and telling bad players to just cast it on CD doesn't fix the problem. You can literally just say "cast it every time you drop below 60% hp" and that'll be better than saying to cast it on CD.


@Shenrais: tuning is bad on live - same thing people repeat at the start of every beta: find issue with the mechanics, not the tuning.

[Bearygood]

Cel basically says it. Why place the value on number of casts instead of efficacy of casts?

Additionally, you can control when your health drops most of the time. When you're out of SotR charges and don't have horse up, you're going to drop. Use LotP then, don't just spam it on CD. I honestly can't think of a time where indiscriminately casting a defensive ability has been better than playing the game intelligently. If the argument is "people should use LotP more aggressively" - sure, it's a short CD and you can benefit a lot from casting it frequently. If the argument is "use LotP on CD", it's just not possible to be better than casting it intelligently. In any situation where casting it on CD is the best thing, that's what you'd be doing if you're playing properly, and any situation where that isn't the best strategy you'll have the ability to cast it as it is the best.


The point I'm making is that any decent player is already going to be casting the ability frequently when it's a good idea, and telling bad players to just cast it on CD doesn't fix the problem. You can literally just say "cast it every time you drop below 60% hp" and that'll be better than saying to cast it on CD.


@Shenrais: tuning is bad on live - same thing people repeat at the start of every beta: find issue with the mechanics, not the tuning.

I was just sort of comparing myself to the protection warrior in my guild who seemed to outperform me in every way possible by leaps and bounds

[Deleted]

I was just sort of comparing myself to the protection warrior in my guild who seemed to outperform me in every way possible by leaps and bounds

beta is the same, warrior DK and bear are all much better than pala monk and DH anyway

[Veyloris]

Not that I'm questioning it, but what makes warrior/DK/bear better? More consistent mitigation or what?

[Deleted]

I really feel like they just should add some SotR CD reduction from AS like 2sec.
As soon as we get rid of HFC tier set, we won't be able to spam it as we are now.

[Gallahadd]

I really feel like they just should add some SotR CD reduction from AS like 2sec.
As soon as we get rid of HFC tier set, we won't be able to spam it as we are now.

Indeed, The whole point of GC was to make it grant HP. it only makes sense now that we've shifted to the charge system it should either grant a charge (which would be too strong) or at least take 3/4 seconds off.

[I Push Buttons]

I really feel like they just should add some SotR CD reduction from AS like 2sec.
As soon as we get rid of HFC tier set, we won't be able to spam it as we are now.

Maybe we still can.

The absorb for 20% of the damage it deals might make it ok. It stacks so you do a few of those, throw in a SotR and a blessed hammer, can probably completely mitigate an attack or two.

[Deleted]

This also lines up with my personal exp of "why would i heal myself for like 10% health when i'm at 70% and not in danger of dying, with healers around"

Because, why not? It's unlikely that you are going to die from 70% if there are healers around but it may even allow to them to DPS a little. Or save them mana if it turns out to be actual resource as Blizzard has stated. (Yet again stated. Not exactly counting on it.) No, I don't think it's huge buff to survivability, but I see no harm done casting it at 70%. Small health gain boosts your survivability compared to no cast at all.

Total HPS doesn't matter tho.
When i was testing sims i let lotp cast go off every time we were below 70% and 35%.
70% Resulted in more hps (slightly), but 35% resulted in MUCH better survivability.

This is common sense actually. 10 Lotp casts at 35% is way better than 10 casts at 70% and I agree with this completely. But if you cast very few Lotp, casting multitudes of them in various health conditions is better for survivability. Some health gain is better than no health gain. And you want to enter those high damage phases with as much health you can have because you are more likely to survive those phases then.

It's all about amount of casts. Because even without sims I would argue that entering heavy damage phase with 60% health, cast Lotp at 35% and then use heavy situation saver as say, Lay on Hands to survive, is not optimal to way to deal with situation and is less survivability than enter it 80%, cast it at 65%, and next one at 40%.

It's in my mind not HPS that matters but higher Health during heavy damage phase and more self-healing during it. With 15sec rigidity, it actually lined up as two casts vs one during heavy damage phase. Casts at 1:54 and 2:09 and real cast at 2:11. Also, in first damage heavy phase there were no Lotp casts, casting it every cooldown resulted would have resulted in three casts.

And if you want to have control over Lotp, don't cast it if Big Nasty Attack is happening during Lotp recharge time, we do know exactly when that is happening due DBM or similar boss addon. There is no downside of casting it as often as you can, since you can save it for those.

"why would i heal myself for like 10% health when i'm at 70% and not in danger of dying, with healers around"

I view it as skillful play. I would also cast damage reduction spell even if I'm not in danger of dying if their cooldown finishes before I know I need it. I would cast damage reduction spell as a healer/dps if it's cooldown finishes before I know I need it. Or dps a little as a healer of cast offheal or two as dps. (As long as it's not hindering my main priority)

Additionally, you can control when your health drops most of the time. When you're out of SotR charges and don't have horse up, you're going to drop. Use LotP then, don't just spam it on CD. I honestly can't think of a time where indiscriminately casting a defensive ability has been better than playing the game intelligently.

It was during MoP thought to better to stack haste instead of mastery/control and spam ShotR to maximize uptime. Not sure if I remember correctly though.

If the argument is "people should use LotP more aggressively" - sure, it's a short CD and you can benefit a lot from casting it frequently. If the argument is "use LotP on CD", it's just not possible to be better than casting it intelligently. In any situation where casting it on CD is the best thing, that's what you'd be doing if you're playing properly, and any situation where that isn't the best strategy you'll have the ability to cast it as it is the best.

The point I'm making is that any decent player is already going to be casting the ability frequently when it's a good idea, and telling bad players to just cast it on CD doesn't fix the problem. You can literally just say "cast it every time you drop below 60% hp" and that'll be better than saying to cast it on CD.

My argument would probably be that it should be used frequently. And more often than proposed "use at 35% only". After that it becomes playstyle question and I do not have clear answer. (To pull percentages out blue air, is it better to cast at 80%,60% and at 50% or two casts at 45%)

Problem to use it intelligently is that you are taking a gamble against future just like with use it on CD. It's gamble about how many casts you get during when you need it most. With "Intelligent planning" you get "best" spot that is most beneficial spot to use Lotp, but get fewer casts as it take time to pick right spot and the more it requires time, less casts you make. "Quick and dirty", casting it on cooldown, sacrifices that most beneficial spot and accepts multitude of casts during heavy damage phase, because it's likely that casts during heavy damage phase are happening low health. With using it on CD I got three casts of which 2 were on high damage phase during first heavy damage phase and three casts during second heavy damage phase, and all those three casts were during high damage moments. So totaling 5 out of 6 casts ended up in high damage phases.

My thoughts goes like this:
Casting Lotp frequently at low health>Casting Lotp frequently at medium health>Casting frequently Lotp at high health>Not casting Lotp at all.

Casting Lotp at 80%, then at 60% and at 40% is better than saving it till 35%, cast it and then use Lay on Hands as one Lotp is not enough. Three casts at 0,1% is best but you end up dying most certainly if you try this.

If you enter heavy damage phase with missing health and haven't casted single Lotp earlier, you have missed opportunity. Cruel thing about short cooldown is that is frequently available. That means you can always go check logs and check when you casted Lotp and when you didn't cast it, even if it was available, and then try to figure out how beneficial it would have been if you had casted it.

[Pu3Ho]

Boys, I've been playing prot pally since early wotlk raiding in ~top100-250 guilds and after ALOT of testing/trying different gear/talents/everything like vers crit/mastery, Haste/Mastery literally everything and every possible "viable" in common sense stuff, i am going to admit it - Protection Pallies are - SHIT and SHIT to the point it's not even worth wasting your time trying to play it thinking "oh maybe at XXX ILVL i'l become better and stuff like that" cuz you - won't

We are Literally Worse then DK/Bear and even MONK after his latest buffs in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT Health pool, Surviving, Self-Healing, Ability to survive burst dmg(despite all our "mitigations" it's worthless due to Laughtable hp pool compared to other tanks).

We can't tank for long periods of time due to SotR limitations (althou stacking haste/mastery items gives us ability to tank longer, but it's still around ~65-70% with ~35% haste, while druid/dk can tank 24/7).

Like i said earlier We LACK HEALTH POOL. With itemlvl increase our disparity in that aspect with other tanks gets bigger and bigger in "some cases" "cough, druid cough" to the laughtable point : 898 Ilvl(scaled) DK = ~4.8Mio, Druid = ~10.5Mio !!!, Warrior = ~4.5Mio, Paladin = ~3.4Mio , and even only that single thing ALONE already negates all our "advantages"(jk we don't have any except few abusable things with spellwarding((completely neglectable)) in terms of active mitigation.

We lack DPS compared to other tanks(especially when compared to DK) and can only rival/not beat them on heavy aoe fights.

We can;t stack our "best" stat - Versatility due to items with Vers/Haste combo almost doesn't exist in the game and it's Vers/Crit in 90% of cases... Which gives worse results compared to Haste/Mastery stacking especially on bosses who apply "stacks" on you and switching with other tank is required.

Even if you decided to stack full Haste/Mastery items which i firmly believe is the Our real and right way(except Haste/Vers if you manage to find it) you still don't scale into "lategame" as good as other tanks do, due to haste becoming "irrelevant" after ~40% mark which happens around 855-865 itemlvl.

Consider yourself warned boys. And IF anyone after reading all of that still wants to play PP - please know that.. you are fucking retarded But i like it and i hope idiots from blizzard gaming will buff us in some way so we can become atleast viable, cuz right now there is not a single reason to bring us into raid instead of DK'S or Druids.