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  1. #81
    Brewmaster Uriel's Avatar
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    That question isn't as easy to aswer as mostly here think.

    The raid itself wouldn't last very long, because the mechanics weren't that challenging BUT the most brutal about classic Naxx wasn't the raid so much, but rather the way reaching it. To properly gear your char to even stand a chance to kill Flickwerk you had to be geared to the teeth in the previous tiers.

    This means going through ZG>MC>BWL>AQ20>AQ40. Considering that each Boss dropped 2-4 pieces per Kill for a Raidgroup of 20-40 this would take a while.
    Most people didn't even set foot in Naxx cause they lacked the time and dedication to go through all of this just to wipe several times at DPS check bosses.


    If you leave out all the gearing and/or gear via Badges or Worldbosses aka Tanaan, and considering most Top Guilds would have spend hours o the PTR to figure out tactics. Lets say you got properly geared Chars before the relase..It will most likely last a couple of hours. Or a couple of Days max.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Uriel View Post
    That question isn't as easy to aswer as mostly here think.

    The raid itself wouldn't last very long, because the mechanics weren't that challenging BUT the most brutal about classic Naxx wasn't the raid so much, but rather the way reaching it. To properly gear your char to even stand a chance to kill Flickwerk you had to be geared to the teeth in the previous tiers.

    This means going through ZG>MC>BWL>AQ20>AQ40. Considering that each Boss dropped 2-4 pieces per Kill for a Raidgroup of 20-40 this would take a while.
    Most people didn't even set foot in Naxx cause they lacked the time and dedication to go through all of this just to wipe several times at DPS check bosses.


    If you leave out all the gearing and/or gear via Badges or Worldbosses aka Tanaan, and considering most Top Guilds would have spend hours o the PTR to figure out tactics. Lets say you got properly geared Chars before the relase..It will most likely last a couple of hours. Or a couple of Days max.
    Consider that top guilds typically, (depending on the guild) have 5-7 characters with full BiS or close to it by the end of a tier. I doubt gear would be an issue.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Drattz View Post
    Just want to address this "Guilds aren't used to guild breaker bosses." idea. So people just quit at Gorefiend eh? Or Blackfuse, Klaxxi, Garrosh, Blackhand, Blast Furnace? THere are fights just are guild breakery as 4hmen in the game these days.
    Player burnout is quite a bit different from the way Naxx40 used to break guilds.

    1. The loot to player ratio was much lower before Cataclysm - a 40 man Naxx raid was getting 3-4 pieces of gear per boss. It would be like if Mythic HFC dropped one piece of gear per boss instead of five. Obviously, who gets what and when caused a lot of drama.

    2. Mechanically Naxx required certain numbers of roles in ratios unheard of before. As Jazzhands already mentioned, Vanilla Four Horsemen required eight Naxx-level geared tanks. Guilds coming out of AQ40 had perhaps three and one person who offtanked. This meant that guilds would poach entire tank rosters from each other in order to have enough tanks for 4H. A guild with no tanks is not a guild at all; again, drama.

    So while yes, there are bosses which broke guilds in every WoW expansion due to mechanical difficulty causing player burnout (my own guild in Wrath fell apart after six months of wiping on Heroic LK25), Naxx broke them with drama. In a way, it's almost fitting that a Scourge-related raid would destroy people psychologically by pitting them against each other.
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  4. #84
    Raiders are better players today, but vanilla Naxx required a commitment in and outside raiding far beyond what you see in any raids released afterwards.

    Difficulty comes in many forms. There's a reason less than 1% of the community finished the content.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    Raiders are better players today, but vanilla Naxx required a commitment in and outside raiding far beyond what you see in any raids released afterwards.

    Difficulty comes in many forms. There's a reason less than 1% of the community finished the content.
    This is bullshit. Competing for world first requires a far bigger commitment of time now than it did in Vanilla.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Woobels View Post
    Let's say that vanilla Naxx and wotlk Naxx never existed, this raid releases tomorrow and it only has one difficulty, it releases tomorrow, how long would it take for the first guild to kill KT.

    Obviously it'd be a little hard to properly introduce many of the mechanics today but let's assume it's as pure of a copy as possible in terms of difficulty.

    Some things are still a factor: resist gear, consumables, Patchwerk etc are scaled to require the same high amount of dps relatively to current dps.

    I imagine it wouldn't take very long but I'd like to read opinions.
    I don't think it would take very long. Naxx40's vanilla release hit a completely different pool of players. There were no fan sites, addons were basic, strats weren't well known yet. Today there are so many resources to help a player out.
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  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    This is bullshit. Competing for world first requires a far bigger commitment of time now than it did in Vanilla.
    I'm not talking about world first, I'm talking about just finishing the content. World first is a whole different bag of worms because they are willingly putting in the time. In vanilla Naxx, you had no choice BUT to put in an insane amount of hours if you wanted to clear it (and I'm not talking strictly just raiding).

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawnrage View Post
    I'm not talking about world first, I'm talking about just finishing the content. World first is a whole different bag of worms because they are willingly putting in the time. In vanilla Naxx, you had no choice BUT to put in an insane amount of hours if you wanted to clear it (and I'm not talking strictly just raiding).
    Understandable, but you made a very general blanket statement in a thread that is explicitly discussing how long the world first would take.

  9. #89
    There's no doubt that mechanically, Naxx wasn't as difficult as many of the modern raids.

    Naxx's difficulty didn't stem solely from mechanics, however. It was quite brutally tuned. The logistics of finding 40 people good enough were difficult. The loot grind took a long time to get people sufficiently geared. It was a different raid environment entirely. I think it's undoubtedly true that modern players are much stronger theorycrafters and better at handling complex raid mechanics than their vanilla counterparts, but no matter how skilled or competent you are there are limitations to the tuning you can overcome with that. Naxx was designed to require grinding and long term investment.

    Many people forget that guilds in BC went back to Naxx 40 to check it out before WOTLK went live. Even then it wasn't a cakewalk despite 10 additional levels, new spells, talents and higher gear levels. Guilds still wiped, frequently. There was a reason very few people tried to farm Atiesh.

    If Legacy servers came back tomorrow and some of the world's best guilds went for Legacy Naxx 40 world firsts, I fully expect they'd manage it sooner than the old vanilla guilds did; they have a decade of raid theory to call on and the encounters are now well understood. Their players perform at a higher level than those back in vanilla did. It's clearly inevitable that the raid would fall faster. I certainly wouldn't expect to see it fall in a week, though. I think many underestimate how long it took to sufficiently gear the raid for later bosses. High skill and execution can bridge a certain amount of item level gap, but it can only overcome so much.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Understandable, but you made a very general blanket statement in a thread that is explicitly discussing how long the world first would take.
    Well, that's true, but the thread took a turn into just discussing how difficult vanilla Naxx is compared to raids of today so that's where my point was focusing on.

    There's a lot of talk about outgearing fights and stuff in there, but there were a lot of bullshit you had to do too outside of raids like farming potion/flask mats which didn't last through death and you needed 40 people's worth each raid night, not to mention stupid shit like needing absorption potions. Getting world buffs for certain bosses like loatheb and sapphiron, like the ZG and nefarian's buff. Frost resistance gear being a thing etc.

    I don't miss those days of raiding at all. I prefer these days where raiding is about how good you are as a player. Make no mistake though, raiding was definitely not easy back then.
    Last edited by Dawnrage; 2016-07-26 at 03:51 PM.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by tangers58 View Post
    Because they leave their jobs and any other obligations behind every time new content comes out to sit in front of their computers for days or weeks straight?
    This just gives the impression that you don't actually know any good raiders personally.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    This is bullshit. Competing for world first requires a far bigger commitment of time now than it did in Vanilla.
    But getting properly geared and prepared for any raid since Naxx 40 doesn't take as long as Naxx 40 did, so you're not entirely accurate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Consider that top guilds typically, (depending on the guild) have 5-7 characters with full BiS or close to it by the end of a tier. I doubt gear would be an issue.
    No one had 5-7 BiS toons for Naxx. Nobody did that stuff til like Wrath+ when viable epics started falling from the sky through dozens of catchup and gear the noobs mechanics over the years, and then much more in Cata when bosses finally started dropping a decent amount of loot and tiers lasted forever.

    You can't even really have this conversation because gearing for Naxx 40 was THE issue due to the environment it existed in.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Drutt View Post
    There's no doubt that mechanically, Naxx wasn't as difficult as many of the modern raids.

    Naxx's difficulty didn't stem solely from mechanics, however. It was quite brutally tuned. The logistics of finding 40 people good enough were difficult. The loot grind took a long time to get people sufficiently geared. It was a different raid environment entirely. I think it's undoubtedly true that modern players are much stronger theorycrafters and better at handling complex raid mechanics than their vanilla counterparts, but no matter how skilled or competent you are there are limitations to the tuning you can overcome with that. Naxx was designed to require grinding and long term investment.

    Many people forget that guilds in BC went back to Naxx 40 to check it out before WOTLK went live. Even then it wasn't a cakewalk despite 10 additional levels, new spells, talents and higher gear levels. Guilds still wiped, frequently. There was a reason very few people tried to farm Atiesh.

    If Legacy servers came back tomorrow and some of the world's best guilds went for Legacy Naxx 40 world firsts, I fully expect they'd manage it sooner than the old vanilla guilds did; they have a decade of raid theory to call on and the encounters are now well understood. Their players perform at a higher level than those back in vanilla did. It's clearly inevitable that the raid would fall faster. I certainly wouldn't expect to see it fall in a week, though. I think many underestimate how long it took to sufficiently gear the raid for later bosses. High skill and execution can bridge a certain amount of item level gap, but it can only overcome so much.
    I didn't play back in Vanilla, so I'd appreciate it if you can answer me this. AQ40 gear was ilvl 88. Naxx 40 gear was ilvl 88. With good enough RNG you will eventually get a pull on 4 Horsemen where you don't wipe to taunts missing.

    Imagine this scenario:A guild has 40 players that all play perfectly all of the time and never lag. These 40 players all have infinite gold and 5 characters with full BiS from AQ40. Why can Naxx 40 not be cleared within 24 hours of zoning into the raid?

  13. #93
    Probably kill it first week. Same reason all the fights on private servers for any raid are much easier than they were on live.

    -We know the fights and strategies.
    -We are much better players than we used to be. We have been playing for 10+ years now, as opposed to 2 at the time of release.
    -We know how to optimize our class much better.

    And probably the most important one that would relate to this more;
    -Class mechanincs: classes are changed, there is more versatility among classes and specs. All classes and specs are better balanced. Most classes have self healing, are capable of high mobility, have some form of CC, and threat is almost never and issue.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post


    No one had 5-7 BiS toons for Naxx. Nobody did that stuff til like Wrath+ when viable epics started falling from the sky through dozens of catchup and gear the noobs mechanics over the years, and then much more in Cata when bosses finally started dropping a decent amount of loot and tiers lasted forever.

    You can't even really have this conversation because gearing for Naxx 40 was THE issue due to the environment it existed in.
    I'm well aware of the difference in raiding culture from then till now. The OP asked, "Let's say that vanilla Naxx and wotlk Naxx never existed, this raid releases tomorrow and it only has one difficulty, it releases tomorrow, how long would it take for the first guild to kill KT." which has nothing to do with the raiding culture as it existed in Vanilla.

    Also, Method geared their alts for HFC by clearing mythic BRF 5 times per week, not with catch up mechanics.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post

    Imagine this scenario:A guild has 40 players that all play perfectly all of the time and never lag. These 40 players all have infinite gold and 5 characters with full BiS from AQ40. Why can Naxx 40 not be cleared within 24 hours of zoning into the raid?
    They probably could. Thing is this part "A guild has 40 players that all play perfectly all of the time". During progression, getting 10 players to play perfectly, maybe 1 or 2 wipes, eventually yall got it under control. Get 20, okay you have some more wipes one would assume double as the 10. 40 players, well you start to see where people might fuck up a little more.

    Thing is about most raids, is 1 player can wipe a raid pretty easily if not playing well. If every player is as good as playing perfectly 9/10 attempts but that 1/10 wipes the raid, it is possible (although unlikely) that even in 10m, you never kill the boss because each of you just keep rotating raid wipes. Now put 40 people in a raid. Little bit trickier now.

    Biggest thing though, is during original naxx 40, people had only been playing for 2 years max, so the skill realllllly wasnt there. Now we've all be playing for 10 years, 40 people can probably pull enough weight to do it perfectly fairly often.

  16. #96
    I think four horsemen would be the block there, assuming it was tuned for tanks to have artifact weapons.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by DownToFarm View Post
    They probably could. Thing is this part "A guild has 40 players that all play perfectly all of the time". During progression, getting 10 players to play perfectly, maybe 1 or 2 wipes, eventually yall got it under control. Get 20, okay you have some more wipes one would assume double as the 10. 40 players, well you start to see where people might fuck up a little more.

    Thing is about most raids, is 1 player can wipe a raid pretty easily if not playing well. If every player is as good as playing perfectly 9/10 attempts but that 1/10 wipes the raid, it is possible (although unlikely) that even in 10m, you never kill the boss because each of you just keep rotating raid wipes. Now put 40 people in a raid. Little bit trickier now.

    Biggest thing though, is during original naxx 40, people had only been playing for 2 years max, so the skill realllllly wasnt there. Now we've all be playing for 10 years, 40 people can probably pull enough weight to do it perfectly fairly often.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head, which is precisely why I think that Naxx 40 would be cleared in a day if it were released now and magically tuned appropriately. Because, more or less, that is what the top 5 guilds are like. No one makes significant mistakes with mechanics barring a couple of attempts to learn the boss, lag is not tolerated, the guild as a whole has functionally infinite gold, and everyone plays really really fucking well concerning maximizing their output. And if they find a mechanic that they can't do consistently, they make an addon to do it for them.

  18. #98
    With everything remaining as it does today?

    1 Day. The ability to swap talents, roles and no real need to dramatically change your gear means it'd be super easy when you consider the most difficult part of Naxxramas 40 was having 8 Warrior Tanks fully geared, and people with enough resistances and such.

    Naxxramas in terms of difficulty, was super piss easy. It was just a mess to co-ordinate 40 people with such insane requirements of a guild. 8 Tanks?! So stupid. These days a guild could easily stump up 8 tanks though.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Rehija View Post
    A other thing that most ppl. forget is the difference in quality of Personal Computers and Internet connections during classic and WotlK. The vast majority didnt even had a DSL connection during Classic and raiding with 20 frames or less was standard for most of ppl.

    I always point towards the Heigan and Thaddius fights as good examples when someone compares the lvl 60 and 80 versions of Naxxramas. At Heigan you could run absolutely perfect on your screen during the dance phase, with a ping over 200 ( and a lot of ppl. had pings more worse than 200 ) you were dead. But at this fight it only killed yourself. Now take Thaddius... a ping over 200 at a single player meant a wipe. My Raid had our Thaddius firstkill with 26 active ppl. After killing the two adds, everyone with a bad ping didnt jump over to Thaddius to prevent a wipe due to a bad ping.
    I remember when I finally got my ping in the 200s with 20 fps and it was like I was playing a different game, it just felt so smooth. Now if I am ever above 100 ms or below 30 fps the game feels unplayable.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I'm well aware of the difference in raiding culture from then till now. The OP asked, "Let's say that vanilla Naxx and wotlk Naxx never existed, this raid releases tomorrow and it only has one difficulty, it releases tomorrow, how long would it take for the first guild to kill KT." which has nothing to do with the raiding culture as it existed in Vanilla.

    Also, Method geared their alts for HFC by clearing mythic BRF 5 times per week, not with catch up mechanics.
    Gear acquisition rate from Cata is the catchup mechanic that made doing that realistically feasible. No one was going to drag 6 toons through several tiers in Vanilla just to viably get in to Naxx 40 with 2 drops a boss and severely tighter gear requirements.

    If you take gear, preparation, and environment out of the picture then it would be one shotted to be honest. If we're going solely on a group of players ability to beat content assuming everything else is taken care of, nothing in Vanilla or TBC would last more than a day. Wrath/Cata started the transition from gear/grind requirements being the main focus to actually interesting fights and how to solve them becoming the focus.

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