I Had More Spells at Level 60.....

[Kryos]

Yeah, Vanilla and BC where we used so many buttons for dps... like /cast Shadowbolt and... well that's it for max dps warlock in BC. Ok, Hunter: /castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot ... yay you win at dps. Ok Vanilla Frost Mage: /cast Frostbolt and so on. During the "golden age" of WoW most classes had 1-5 buttons to press for max dps and they had rotations, completely static, no rng at all. So please, stop the whining and take off the rose colored nostaliga glasses.

[shoegazing]

Yeah, Vanilla and BC where we used so many buttons for dps... like /cast Shadowbolt and... well that's it for max dps warlock in BC. Ok, Hunter: /castsequence Steady Shot, Auto Shot ... yay you win at dps. Ok Vanilla Frost Mage: /cast Frostbolt and so on. During the "golden age" of WoW most classes had 1-5 buttons to press for max dps and they had rotations, completely static, no rng at all. So please, stop the whining and take off the rose colored nostaliga glasses.

Your reading comprehension is utterly terrible.

Not a single person in this thread is saying they want to go back to vanilla style simplistic damage rotations.

We are not saying we want less damage abilities. The number of abilities in our rotations is fine right now.

It is the utility abilities that are lacking.

And just because you personally didn't use them doesn't mean that we didn't use them.

[kary]

I like how everyone ignores that the honor talents are where the utility comes from, plus the whole design mantra where survivability/cc is lowered across the board.

But idk whatever it's mmo-champ forums. Low hanging fruit everywhere.

[mistahwilshire]

so you mean in bc, when warlocks pressed shadowbolt....? and.... yeah...

This has literally NOTHING to do with your flagrantly retarded claim that we used 10% of our 8 pages before we were reduced to 2. Not only has that never been true, it's never even been close.

You tried to get hyperbolic AGAIN with this BC Warlock shit, which was 10 years ago and also still not even true. Get over yourself and stop exaggerating literally everything you post.

[shoegazing]

I like how everyone ignores that the honor talents are where the utility comes from, plus the whole design mantra where survivability/cc is lowered across the board.

But idk whatever it's mmo-champ forums. Low hanging fruit everywhere.

Have you played beta PvP?

There really isn't very much in the artifacts or in the PvP talents.

And yeah, CC probably felt pretty excessive if you're the type of player who doesn't keybind their grounding totem or windshear while you run at healers in Ashran

:^)

For those of us with a brain however, there was nothing wrong with CC in WoD. Even the dreaded RMD could be stopped by effectively rotating trinkets and interrupts....

[mistahwilshire]

Have you played beta PvP?

There really isn't very much in the artifacts or in the PvP talents.

And yeah, CC probably felt pretty excessive if you're the type of player who doesn't keybind their grounding totem or windshear while you run at healers in Ashran

:^)

For those of us with a brain however, there was nothing wrong with CC in WoD. Even the dreaded RMD could be stopped by effectively rotating trinkets and interrupts....

The thing that was wrong was that most specs had some form of all of it, which is just a shit design. The only CC differences between specs shouldn't be durations or how you cast them like they have been since Wrath. Intelligence or complexity has nothing to do with it.

[kary]

Have you played beta PvP?

There really isn't very much in the artifacts or in the PvP talents.

And yeah, CC probably felt pretty excessive if you're the type of player who doesn't keybind their grounding totem or windshear while you run at healers in Ashran

:^)

For those of us with a brain however, there was nothing wrong with CC in WoD. Even the dreaded RMD could be stopped by effectively rotating trinkets and interrupts....

Yep, got toons both at 110 from leveling and on the 110 premade realm. It's fine. You don't need a counter to every possible scenario ever. See that button you used once every 15 matches? It's gone. That's all it is.

Oh and I wanna know how you can interrupt a 40 yard poly with a max 15 yard interrupt. Something doesn't add up, man.
Or interrupt it the 2nd time after you trinket it.

[shoegazing]

The thing that was wrong was that most specs had some form of all of it, which is just a shit design. The only CC differences between specs shouldn't be durations or how you cast them like they have been since Wrath. Intelligence or complexity has nothing to do with it.

I'll agree that too many specs had been given fire-and-forget stuns without any significant cost that just get pressed every 30 seconds on cooldown

That contributes to the perception that CC is too strong, because stuns are used every 30 seconds to set up longer casted CC (which could still nonetheless be prevented by good coordination and teamwork)

The other big thing actually is dispels. They were given an 8 second cooldown in MoP. Prior to that you had to plan "okay I'll poly the ret while you fear the priest at the same time, so they can't dispel each other".

Nowadays though if a mage sheeps another dps and that dps gets dispelled, the mage just sheeps it two more times while the dispel is on cooldown. Then you get hit with roots and if the healer dispels that when dispel comes off CD, that's when you get feared, etc etc.

Before dispels were given a CD (why was that a good idea, exactly?) it was simply not possible to spam CC into a single target like that, you actually had to time it and prevent the healer (or a hybrid dps) from just dispelling it.

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Yep, got toons both at 110 from leveling and on the 110 premade realm. It's fine. You don't need a counter to every possible scenario ever. See that button you used once every 15 matches? It's gone. That's all it is.

Oh and I wanna know how you can interrupt a 40 yard poly with a max 15 yard interrupt. Something doesn't add up, man.
Or interrupt it the 2nd time after you trinket it.

What type of PvP content were you playing where you felt like CC was unavoidable or couldn't be countered?

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Also, what are your teammates doing while you are getting polymorphed?

You realize it's not a 1v1 game, right?

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Also, another thing: I used pretty much every button in every match so speak for yourself.

[kary]

I'll agree that too many specs had been given fire-and-forget stuns without any significant cost that just get pressed every 30 seconds on cooldown

That contributes to the perception that CC is too strong, because stuns are used every 30 seconds to set up longer casted CC (which could still nonetheless be prevented by good coordination and teamwork)

The other big thing actually is dispels. They were given an 8 second cooldown in MoP. Prior to that you had to plan "okay I'll poly the ret while you fear the priest at the same time, so they can't dispel each other".

Nowadays though if a mage sheeps another dps and that dps gets dispelled, the mage just sheeps it two more times while the dispel is on cooldown. Then you get hit with roots and if the healer dispels that when dispel comes off CD, that's when you get feared, etc etc.

Before dispels were given a CD (why was that a good idea, exactly?) it was simply not possible to spam CC into a single target like that, you actually had to time it and prevent the healer (or a hybrid dps) from just dispelling it.

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What type of PvP content were you playing where you felt like CC was unavoidable or couldn't be countered?

I'm directly addressing your point. Nothing more, nothing less.

And it's like you said above, you trinket one, get one dispelled, then you get rooted or some other form of cc. It's not bad when it requires teamwork to do that but when one class can effectively cc people for extended periods of time it's a little silly.

You don't have to agree with me either, I just think that the way things have been going is fine. Scatter/trap was dumb. Binding > explo > freezing is dumb too. Getting rid of things like that? Great change imho.

[RippedLife]

Here's the thing though- if you feel like you've lost a lot of tools you used in PvP, so has everyone else. It's not like your class is the only one that is going to play differently now: you'll need to adjust to the new playstyle, and the smaller number of answers you have, but don't lose sight of the fact that other classes have a lot fewer abilities that you need answers to.

its like it you removed 50% of a chess board. Yes your opponent also lost half of the figurines but the game still sucks now.

[shoegazing]

I'm directly addressing your point. Nothing more, nothing less.

And it's like you said above, you trinket one, get one dispelled, then you get rooted or some other form of cc. It's not bad when it requires teamwork to do that but when one class can effectively cc people for extended periods of time it's a little silly.

You don't have to agree with me either, I just think that the way things have been going is fine. Scatter/trap was dumb. Binding > explo > freezing is dumb too. Getting rid of things like that? Great change imho.

Scatter>Trap was dumb?

Sounds like a L2P issue, Scatter>Trap was easily countered. Stand on your healer to eat the trap, use Shadow Word: Death self damage to break Scatter, rogues could disarm the trap or Shadowstep back to their healer when he got scattered, Blink the trap, Intervene/Spell Reflect it when you see Scatter, etc.

Now, compare that to the new Freezing Arrow mechanic. Freezing Arrow doesn't have to be aimed. It doesn't require setup from Scatter or HoJ or Storm Bolt like trapping does, it can't be eaten like a trap, can't be disarmed, etc etc etc

Freezing Arrow is dumber, less counterable, and less interactive in every conceivable way. It is simply a worse mechanic that provides less opportunities for dynamic gameplay. No set up, just press the button on cooldown.

Clearly you are just a rookie player that thinks CC is OP because you didn't put the effort in (like the rest of us did) to learn how to deal with it effectively.

[Traveler Voltin]

why do you need 3 stuns?

[shoegazing]

The one question that n00b PvPers never ask themselves after a loss is "what could I have done better in that situation?"

They never take responsibility for failing to make a play or failing to recognize the situation and react accordingly. They just head to the forums and start complaining because in their own mind they played perfectly, and if they lost it's because the game itself is wrong.

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Literally no one with a brain thinks that Freezing Arrow is a healthier mechanic for PvP than Scatter>Trap was, lmao. It is a super common opinion among top PvPers that Freezing Arrow is flat out worse for the game in every way. In fact it's pretty much a universally held opinion among people who actually understand the game on any kind of deep level, lol....

[Cephalonichan]

I thought the whole point of opening up the 3 specs and making less abilities was to make it so classes could switch between the three specs based upon the encounter? One spec has strengths the other doesn't, etc.

[Shuken]

Why do people think you need 30+ spells?

We don't need a specific number of spells.

What we need though, is not feel like we went from level 100 - WOD to level 30 - vanilla.

That is not a good feel. Some of us actually used these abilities.

As a BM hunter, I have lost dispel, kill shot, camo, traps, master's call, GCD is higher so it feels slow as fuck.. Those aren't abilities I never used. I used them all the freakin' time.

This shit is plain not fun. I've played this game for 10 years, and it's just the worst it's ever been. Sorry to say. And no, artifact won't fix it. I'm not actually gaining any new abilities, it's mostly just modifiers.

[PeterTheGreat]

2 pages where you use about 90% of the spells, better then 8 pages were you use 10%

No, It's not. We dont need MOBA-gaming with 4-5 variative spells. It's another genre. We need few pages of spells, which will correspond to our class in spirit and logic. They do not have to be used every minute. It's OK.

We need mana, which will come to an end, we need a rage that is hard to gain, we need a quiver and arrows that we are going to craft. MMO is a world where everything must make sense, otherwise this turns into League of Legends or crappy HotS.

[Fenixhart]

How lazy are you if you can't be asked to push more than 1 button for AoE?

And, this may come as a surprise to you, but only a minority of players participate in raiding. Seriously, there is a lot more to the game.

I have no doubt that the new classes feel fine in raids in many cases. That does not mean that they feel fine to play in other content.

You really gonna tlell me that having to use 2 single target abilities to spread a DoT before you can AoE is good design and accuse me of laziness?

This circus gets more and more ridiculous.

[shonist]

The prunning was okey, maybe not in some particular spells but in overall, is an improve for me.

I didnt have enough keys combinations on my keyboard with my dk.

[Shuken]

First thing its great because anti homogenziation

Gotta love blanket statements like these with zero explanation. It feels like developer rhetoric.. and people just run away with it. It's so bizarre. What makes homogenization bad ? Personally, I loved it. As a hunter I loved the fact that I had 3 slightly different ranged physical dmg options with pet tanks who could aoe decently. It's what I loved about this class. I rolled this class because I could safely rely on that fact. If I wanted to go with a stronger pet, I'd go BM, if I wanted to go dots and instant casts and stronger AOE I had surv, if I wanted stronger single target with hard casts, I had MM. Devils is in the details. If Blizz nerfed one of the specs I love, I still had 2 potential specs to fall back on. Now, I only have 2 specs left in the name of fucking anti homogenization. And they just happened to destroy both of these specs so I'm fucked. In the name of homogenization, they changed all 3 of the specs I loved into some abomination that is either undesirable (melee), or awful game play (BM+MM). I didn't roll a hunter to be surv, or mm or BM. I rolled a hunter because it had always been ranged physical with a pet. I could always count on blizzard not fucking up at least one of my 3 specs. And if they did, hunter community would stand up together to call them out on their BS until we had at least one ranged physical DPS spec that was playable.

[shoegazing]

I didnt have enough keys combinations on my keyboard with my dk.

LOL that's rich

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You really gonna tlell me that having to use 2 single target abilities to spread a DoT before you can AoE is good design and accuse me of laziness?

This circus gets more and more ridiculous.

Wow you had to press 3 whole buttons to AoE

You poor thing