Which leaders shall betray the Horde/Alliance in Legion?

[Tripzzz]

Other races aren't the foraken. And you're not going to have any sympathy horde side when they are experimenting on Scarlets and people that have invaded and spied on them. It would be the same thing vice versa

Debateable whether the Scarlets would be doing experiments on forsaken. The Scarlets just wanted the undead to be destroyed. I highly doubt the farmers would want to experiment on zombies.

The forsaken do alot of fucked up shit, but people still say "they aren't evil" when they kinda are.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Debateable whether the Scarlets would be doing experiments on forsaken. The Scarlets just wanted the undead to be death. I highly doubt the farmers would want to experiment on zombies.

The forsaken do alot of fucked up shit, but people still say "they aren't evil" when they kinda are.

Vishas and the scarlet crusade say hello. They tortured the living and the dead equally.it's only debatable if you pretend so. As for the farmers they were living under the thumb of the scarlets, they were screwed either way


The forsaken arent evil, they can do evil things but it doesn't make em evil.

[Tripzzz]

Vishas and the scarlet crusade say hello. They tortured the living and the dead equally.it's only debatable if you pretend so. As for the farmers they were living under the thumb of the scarlets, they were screwed either way


The forsaken arent evil, they can do evil things but it doesn't make em evil.

Doing evil stuff makes you evil though.

[Dellis0991]

My bets on Jaina, Moira, or khadgar

Moira is unlikely to do so, she appears to come to some kind of understanding with her father.

[Disreali]

Other races aren't the foraken. And you're not going to have any sympathy horde side when they are experimenting on Scarlets and people that have invaded and spied on them. It would be the same thing vice versa

So the Forsaken get a free pass on experimenting on living humans because...they're the Forsaken?
Makes my "adolescent pet project" all the more apparent. "The Forsaken can do it because they're them!" No, that's not how that works.

Also not all of the people being experimented on are Scarlet. You have normal Lordaeronian humans who the Forsaken have taken captive. Their only crime was not wanting to be undead.

She's done bad things, but...

I agree that she has gone to some dark places (literally and figuratively ), but...

"I'm not saying she didn't do bad stuff but..." is a favourite among the Sylvanas fanbase.

Undeath also dulls "positive" emotion.

That's an excuse, not a justification.

She attacked the places she did by command of Garrosh... someone she did not like, and knew he was trying to wipe out her people. So she resorted to using plague/biological weapons to minimize her losses. In war (in a world without the geneva convention) everything is "fair". You are looking at it from the point of view of a human in the 21st century, and applying our current moral standards to a world that is in some way ahead of our technology (space/interdimensional travel) and in some ways still stuck in the Dark Ages.

No, I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of the Gilneans who had their country destroyed and plagued because an undead banshee unleashed her zombie hordes and biological weapons on them in an unprovoked act of aggression.

As for the living citizens of Lordaeron being turned into Forsaken... that is a utilitarian action... removing the old kingdom and creating the new one from its ashes. She could have outright killed the people... but she chose to turn them instead. Is it "evil" from a point of view of a human... yes... from the in game lore, point of view of the Forsaken and politics? No, not so much.

Oh it's absolutely evil from the point of view of the Forsaken. Their original deal was that they hated what the Scourge had done to them, yet they vowed to press on. Doing that to others? That crosses the line. At least in accordance to the pre-Cata Forsaken/Sylvanas characterisation.

And again...I'm trying to approach this from the in-universe human perspective. She's attacked and converted other humans, humans native to the land she now rules over. Humans who never wanted to be undead. She's essentially Arthas with tits at that point.

All part of war and securing a kingdom. You need to step into their shoes, a small band of intelligent undead trying to hang on to a kingdom that the Alliance (and some in the Horde) want to take over.

Technically the Forsaken humans that make up most of the numbers are all Lordaeron citizens.

Two things.
Why must we step into her shoes? You mentioned you like dark and grey characters. Fair enough, but I role a human paladin precisely because I don't really care for that sort of character. So if we're going to discuss WoW lore and apply morality to it (be it medieval or modern or something in between) then what dictates that I have to see things from her perspective just because she's a character you like? Why am I not justified to retort "you just have to see things from the perspective of the Lordaeronian humans she's experimented on and risen"?

Secondly...that's what I was referring to earlier. The Sylvy fans like to play the "the Forsaken are Lordaeronians, they have the right to their kingdom" card. Implying that the right to Lordaeron should rest with the human natives. Yet an Alliance fan will retort "what about the humans still living in Lordaeron, or the Lordaeronian refugees in Stormwind? Don't they have a right to that kingdom?"
At which point the Forsaken fan will say "they don't count." For...reasons.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Doing evil stuff makes you evil though.

Common logic says otherwise, evil is a point of view. Enough with the 8th grade black and white grasp on storytelling and characterization.

Your reasoning is just as bad as " I don't like sylvanas so she obviously will betray the Horde"

- - - Updated - - -
@Disreali
lordaeron belongs to the forsaken because they took it. Humans have no right to anything they can't take, the same with any race.

[Deleted]

tyrion resurrected as fel mister

[Koryn123]

The Forsaken waging war against the Alliance =/= "waging war against the living"

If they were waging war against the living, they'd be doing all the same junk they did to the Scarlets, Gilneans, Hillsbrad folks, and Stromgarde folks to the Argent Crusade, purely because they're living. But they're not doing that, so they're not waging war against the living.

They attack Hillsbrad because Southshore was at war with Tarren Mill for years.

They attack Gilneas because Garrosh ordered them to.

They attack Stromgarde because Sylvanas wanted Lordaeron secure from all possible threats, and the Alliance had like 8 years to fix Stromgarde to where it would be at least somewhat defensible, and did nothing. Not saying it's morally justified, but it's war, and she cares more about her nation than she does that of the enemy.

They attack the farmers in Tirisfal because they're supporting the Scarlet Crusade with resources like food. Whether you choose to believe it or not, supporting one power with recruits, supplies, transport, or anything else of tangible worth in a war, makes you a target of their enemy. If only Jaina had understood that.

Alliance often confuse world-ending threats with Alliance-ending threats, but neutral organizations like the Argent Crusade know that it's just the Horde and Alliance's petty wars, and that's why they don't flock to the Alliance's side to help them every time the Horde uses some strategic asset against the Alliance, whose tactics usually amount to "have our entire army fight their entire army, resulting in lots of casualties on both sides, as well as increased logging operations in Elwynn Forest from all the condolence letters we'll have to write, because honor and the moral high ground are more important than the lives of the poor farm boys we conscript and send to their deaths after taxing the heart and soul out of our people to finance their sons, husbands, and fathers being meat shields to fight for farmland on the other side of the continent, when we have some right here with much easier removed threats than two massive undead superpowers."

The Horde use their brains to win wars. Simple as that. What do they care about their enemy's land? It'd still be scarred and dead if they used fire bombs instead of their blight. It's just a highly corrosive chemical weapon. It doesn't spread any infection or plague of undeath. It is simply a very effective acid projectile that renders their enemy's land unusable, hurting their morale, and making it easier for her troops to defeat the survivors of the blight.

The Alliance could learn a thing or two from them, and should stop putting intangible abstract ideas before the safety and well-being of their people.

[Tripzzz]

Common logic says otherwise, evil is a point of view. Enough with the 8th grade black and white grasp on storytelling and characterization.

Your reasoning is just as bad as " I don't like sylvanas so she obviously will betray the Horde"

- - - Updated - - -
@Disreali
lordaeron belongs to the forsaken because they took it. Humans have no right to anything they can't take, the same with any race.

I guess the Ebon Blade isn't evil.

"Stupid Paladins! When I attack you unprovoked i'm not being evil! Evil is a point of view! Enough with your 8th grade black and white logic and just die already!"

[Disreali]

Common logic says otherwise, evil is a point of view. Enough with the 8th grade black and white grasp on storytelling and characterization.

Your reasoning is just as bad as " I don't like sylvanas so she obviously will betray the Horde"

Heh. I fully admit that I don't like Sylvanas...mostly because she comes off as something an 8th grade boy would write.
That being said? I've never said she will betray the Horde. In fact? I think it's unlikely given the Horde's story as of late. No way Blizz doubles up on the SoO plot so soon, and no way they discard Sylvy as Warchief so soon after Vol'jin's kicked it.

What I've argued is that it would be in-line with her actions since Cata if, hypothetically, Blizz decided to have her join the Legion. Quest for power, a way to stave off the end of her own existence. A concept that terrifies her to the core...
It's not likely something that will happen. I'm just saying it wouldn't be much of a swerve if it did.

Also evil is a point of view...yes and no. You want to talk about moral relativity? It's not the "get out of jail free" card you think it is when trying to justify morally questionable acts.

[Tripzzz]

The Forsaken waging war against the Alliance =/= "waging war against the living"

If they were waging war against the living, they'd be doing all the same junk they did to the Scarlets, Gilneans, Hillsbrad folks, and Stromgarde folks to the Argent Crusade, purely because they're living. But they're not doing that, so they're not waging war against the living.

They attack Hillsbrad because Southshore was at war with Tarren Mill for years.

They attack Gilneas because Garrosh ordered them to.

They attack Stromgarde because Sylvanas wanted Lordaeron secure from all possible threats, and the Alliance had like 8 years to fix Stromgarde to where it would be at least somewhat defensible, and did nothing. Not saying it's morally justified, but it's war, and she cares more about her nation than she does that of the enemy.

They attack the farmers in Tirisfal because they're supporting the Scarlet Crusade with resources like food. Whether you choose to believe it or not, supporting one power with recruits, supplies, transport, or anything else of tangible worth in a war, makes you a target of their enemy. If only Jaina had understood that.

Alliance often confuse world-ending threats with Alliance-ending threats, but neutral organizations like the Argent Crusade know that it's just the Horde and Alliance's petty wars, and that's why they don't flock to the Alliance's side to help them every time the Horde uses some strategic asset against the Alliance, whose tactics usually amount to "have our entire army fight their entire army, resulting in lots of casualties on both sides, as well as increased logging operations in Elwynn Forest from all the condolence letters we'll have to write, because honor and the moral high ground are more important than the lives of the poor farm boys we conscript and send to their deaths after taxing the heart and soul out of our people to finance their sons, husbands, and fathers being meat shields to fight for farmland on the other side of the continent, when we have some right here with much easier removed threats than two massive undead superpowers."

The Horde use their brains to win wars. Simple as that. What do they care about their enemy's land? It'd still be scarred and dead if they used fire bombs instead of their blight. It's just a highly corrosive chemical weapon. It doesn't spread any infection or plague of undeath. It is simply a very effective acid projectile that renders their enemy's land unusable, hurting their morale, and making it easier for her troops to defeat the survivors of the blight.

The Alliance could learn a thing or two from them, and should stop putting intangible abstract ideas before the safety and well-being of their people.

You failed to address the experiments on live prisoners.

[Koryn123]

Secondly...that's what I was referring to earlier. The Sylvy fans like to play the "the Forsaken are Lordaeronians, they have the right to their kingdom" card. Implying that the right to Lordaeron should rest with the human natives. Yet an Alliance fan will retort "what about the humans still living in Lordaeron, or the Lordaeronian refugees in Stormwind? Don't they have a right to that kingdom?"
At which point the Forsaken fan will say "they don't count." For...reasons.

Then join the Argent Crusade, where they can live in peace in Lordaeron all they want, without fear of being seen as an enemy by the Forsaken. Like this guy http://wow.gamepedia.com/Nathaniel_Dumah

He put his family first, before any braindead "Lordaeron belongs to the completely foreign human kingdom on the other side of the continent because reasons" and joined the Crusade, because there they could live in his family's former home, as his father did, and his father before him, etc., while still being safe from the Horde/Alliance conflict.

[Disreali]

"I'm not saying she didn't do bad stuff but..." is a favourite among the Sylvanas fanbase...

Not saying it's morally justified, but...

@Disreali
lordaeron belongs to the forsaken because they took it. Humans have no right to anything they can't take, the same with any race.

Well now, that's fair enough. So long as you acknowledge that Sylvy's inability to secure Gilneas means neither she or the Horde have any right to it. Same for Stromgarde.
It's also where this convo about lore runs into OOC realities. Fact is Lordaeron will NEVER be returned to the Alliance because the Forsaken represent a huge playerbase, and there's no way Blizz would decimate one of their most popular player factions like that. So any discussion about who can secure Lordaeron as a kingdom IC runs into the wall that, in RL, it's staying Forsaken for the foreseeable future.

[Koryn123]

You failed to address the experiments on live prisoners.

Scarlet Crusade from Lordaeron, who want to destroy the Forsaken?

Dwarven mountaineers from Dun Garok in Hillsbrad who strayed too close to Tarren Mill, their enemy?

K, next?

[Zulkhan]

Pretty sure Cairne will betray us. His ashes flying around will casually deposit inside all the goblin/gnomish machinery, making the whole of the Alliance/Horde heavy artillery useless.

That's pretty much the kind of response a thread of TheramoreIsTheBomb deserves.

Hopefully Anduin

I think it'll be Anduin

No way. The latest short comic cemented the opposite, he outright refuses the Dreadlord's proposal and smites him with some uber holy spell.

[Logwyn]

Common logic says otherwise, evil is a point of view. Enough with the 8th grade black and white grasp on storytelling and characterization.

Your reasoning is just as bad as " I don't like sylvanas so she obviously will betray the Horde"

So some radical group, the scarlets, should make us condemn all humans and alliance. By that logic we should condemn all orcs and horde because of the Iron horde and fel orcs.

So the boars in the woods and the murlocs should be all that is left!

[Traveler Voltin]

Well now, that's fair enough. So long as you acknowledge that Sylvy's inability to secure Gilneas means neither she or the Horde have any right to it. Same for Stromgarde.
It's also where this convo about lore runs into OOC realities. Fact is Lordaeron will NEVER be returned to the Alliance because the Forsaken represent a huge playerbase, and there's no way Blizz would decimate one of their most popular player factions like that. So any discussion about who can secure Lordaeron as a kingdom IC runs into the wall that, in RL, it's staying Forsaken for the foreseeable future.

inability? someone didnt quest horde side.

[Disreali]

Then join the Argent Crusade, where they can live in peace in Lordaeron all they want, without fear of being seen as an enemy by the Forsaken. Like this guy http://wow.gamepedia.com/Nathaniel_Dumah

He put his family first, before any braindead "Lordaeron belongs to the completely foreign human kingdom on the other side of the continent because reasons" and joined the Crusade, because there they could live in his family's former home, as his father did, and his father before him, etc., while still being safe from the Horde/Alliance conflict.

You mean the entity that's going to get absorbed into the cross-faction Knights of the Silver Hand?

And many of those Lordaeronian humans who survived the Scourge remained loyal to the Alliance. Southshore in Hillsbrand being a prime example.
"No, they may be natives to this land but fuck them they no longer have a right to it because we don't like their faction allegiance" is no more valid than claiming that Stormwind has some sort of right to Lordaeron. Something I know I've never tried to argue in favour for.

Honestly? The whole "the Forsaken deserve Lordaeron because they're Lordaeronian" is a weak argument that falls apart the moment you're forced to acknowledge Lordaeronians who don't want to be part of an undead kingdom. Friendlyimmolation really has it figured out.
The Forsaken have a right to Lordaeron because they've taken it and have held it. The Alliance don't have a right to Lordaeron because they have failed to retake it.

It's really as simple as that.

[Tripzzz]

Scarlet Crusade from Lordaeron, who want to destroy the Forsaken?

Dwarven mountaineers from Dun Garok in Hillsbrad who strayed too close to Tarren Mill, their enemy?

K, next?

All races have enemies. It doesn't excuse doing experiments on live prisoners.

[Dartz1979]

Jaina and Sylvannas IMO and hopefully. I wouldn't mind seeing both of them go as, especially sylvannas. Jaina is pretty much a given at this point.


I don't believe Greymane will go bad, at least not anytime soon. Gallywix wouldn't turn on the horde unless Thrall does and that's nil happening.

- - - Updated - - -

Khadgar wont betray either side in particular (which I doubt he would) because he's basically neutral instead of Alliance. If anything he will die at some point fighting a major villain like guldan in mythic

No... why does everyone have to hate on Jaina and Sylvanas they are my favorite sexy lore characters there aint no-one else left to be fantasizing about.