Should Masterloot be brought back for pugs?

[rhorle]

I've been running mythic progress since MoP in an openraid group where we pick up different people every week... Obviously we want Master looter so we can destribute the loot to the regulars. This has completely ruined any meaningful progress of groups that are not on the same server.

But why shouldn't a newcomer who helped you get that loot not deserve equal chances as a regular?

[Bigbazz]

The only groups it would create a shortage on are those that reserve gear. The benefits of putting in the work of semi-organized groups is still there. Most of the raid leaders in the guild groups I've run didn't like having to deal with loot or loot drama. Mixed organized groups are not immune to this. It will also make it so the non-guild members don't feel slighted by not getting any loot. You also over look that fact that these people will still want to raid somewhere. Which means more might join guilds to still obtain the ML effects or they will just join PL pugs.

The point is it helps as much as it hurts. It has negatives and benefits. Which in the end will balance each other out and next expansion it won't even be an issue.

We are adults, we don't need blizzard to remove responsibility by forcing a system and treating us like irresponsible children.. We should be able to make our own decisions on this, Personal loot was there for those who wanted to use it, as was Masterloot.

[rhorle]

We are adults, we don't need blizzard to remove responsibility by forcing a system and treating us like irresponsible children.. We should be able to make our own decisions on this, Personal loot was there for those who wanted to use it, as was Masterloot.

And yet you are advocating ML over Need before greed. If we are all adults and don't need Blizzard treating us like irresponsible children then need before greed would work out just fine. Those that need it, need. Those that don't, don't. But if we are all adults here then you should be fully aware that adults don't always act like adults and some adults need to be treated like irresponsible people. It has nothing to do with being an adult or a child and everything to do with being selfish. But keep telling yourself that Blizzard is treating you like a child.

[Bigbazz]

And yet you are advocating ML over Need before greed. If we are all adults and don't need Blizzard treating us like irresponsible children then need before greed would work out just fine. Those that need it, need. Those that don't, don't. But if we are all adults here then you should be fully aware that adults don't always act like adults and some adults need to be treated like irresponsible people. It has nothing to do with being an adult or a child and everything to do with being selfish. But keep telling yourself that Blizzard is treating you like a child.

I didn't say anything about Need before Greed, so don't put words in my mouth. Read my first post

They need to find a better middle ground, this ruins organised non guild groups. People are thinking only the positives and not how it will affect the pug raiding popularity. It's likely to reduce the incentive for people to make groups to begin with.

Discuss the topic, don't create your own topic around my post.

[rhorle]

I didn't say anything about Need before Greed, so don't put words in my mouth. Read my first post.

Read my post where I specifically said you aren't advocating for that. I guess being an adult doesn't mean anything does it?

[RoKPaNda]

LOL this fucking forum, talk about hyperbole. Of course reality is that the instances of people stealing loot from the group and giving it to friends or whatever when the loot rules were stated otherwise, was few and far between. The new system unfairly punishes players who weren't causing issues. As a result good players just aren't going to pug anymore, because why would we when we're going in for only 1 or two pieces of loot and even if they do drop we're not guaranteed them? So whatever you were complaining about before is absolutely meaningless.

Oh you poor thing, so rather than have a FAIR chance at the item, you're going to choose to have zero chance at the item you need. Makes sense.

[owbu]

Not yet. You dont revert/adjust a a system change before you can actually see its effect on the game. Lets see what happens in legion tier one. Then we have some info wether or not additional changes are needed.

[Socialhealer]

Nobody was stopping them from doing that before, personal loot is not new.

yes and they you get all the people joining, MAKE IT MASTER LOOT, MASTER LOOT PLZ.

i've been there and seen the drama, that drama isn't happening now.

[Sylreick]

What is the need for ML that this new system can't do?

It is fairer than having people do a /roll and then having the ML just pick the person they THINK needs it more for no apparent reason. It's much friendlier to newer raiders rather than force them to be work horses while "regulars" get the gear (or buy it with those really lame DKP systems or whatever they are nowadays). It's a solid way to avoid reservations and ninja looters. It cuts a majority of loot drama from random pugs.

Imo, the pros much outweigh the cons.

[Bigbazz]

yes and they you get all the people joining, MAKE IT MASTER LOOT, MASTER LOOT PLZ.

i've been there and seen the drama, that drama isn't happening now.

Surely that shows the players joining the groups preferred Masterloot in spite of it being a pug? If anything that goes against your reasoning.

[Socialhealer]

Surely that shows the players joining the groups preferred Masterloot in spite of it being a pug? If anything that goes against your reasoning.

some prefer it some don't look at the poll results you can see on average if you made a 30 man raid you'd get 4-5 people wanting master loot while most don't, and a few don't care, as they say you can't make everyone happy, but in this case it seems blizzard is making almost 75% of people happy.

[Bigbazz]

some prefer it some don't look at the poll results you can see on average if you made a 30 man raid you'd get 4-5 people wanting master loot while most don't, and a few don't care, as they say you can't make everyone happy, but in this case it seems blizzard is making almost 75% of people happy.

I see the poll results, I just think people aren't looking at the bigger picture. Most of the people voting are from the perspective of those same guys clicking to join the pugs that other people are organising, they aren't thinking how it affects the dynamics of semi-organised raiding or how it affects the motivations of people who run the pugs to begin with. You have yourself just raised a point that there are people shouting for master loot when it's set to personal, there by proving there is a great demand for master loot.. In the same way that master loot is forced on players occasionally by democracy within groups, personal loot is now forced by dictatorship thanks to Blizzard.

There is no middle ground, it's not a complex or complete enough system to work entirely and when we get into the expansion and see things play out these issues will come to head.

[brunnor]

I don't see why it was taken away. I think PL is far better for pugs, but it will hurt some pugs. There are plenty of times I remember my guild, in early HFC, needing like a Manno/Sorc trinket and doing a heroic run with pugs with the trinket on reserve. Things like that will go away, but for overall pure pug situations, I don't see a reason to not use PL. However, I still think it should be a choice. If people want to try to scumbag reserve all loot or something, don't join the group.

Edit : I think if Blizzard put in a system where you couldn't change between ML/PL after the run had started in a pug, both could be there. If you can change, as the raid leader, between ML/PL on a whim, it should be kept out. Just thought of that one after posting! Or maybe a vote system to change loot in a pug? "If not guild group, put up yes/no voting(like a ready check) for loot changes" I don't think that would be too hard to code, but who knows.

[thunterman]

Yeah well that sucks but this is a social game, maybe try find a guild or play a sp game?

I'm in a guild, we finished HFC and stopped really playing months ago, I'm pugging on alts. Maybe, you should stop trying to pick fault and accept that its gone, along with all the problems it brought with it.

[Kreeshak]

I see the poll results, I just think people aren't looking at the bigger picture. Most of the people voting are from the perspective of those same guys clicking to join the pugs that other people are organising, they aren't thinking how it affects the dynamics of semi-organised raiding or how it affects the motivations of people who run the pugs to begin with. You have yourself just raised a point that there are people shouting for master loot when it's set to personal, there by proving there is a great demand for master loot.. In the same way that master loot is forced on players occasionally by democracy within groups, personal loot is now forced by dictatorship thanks to Blizzard.

There is no middle ground, it's not a complex or complete enough system to work entirely and when we get into the expansion and see things play out these issues will come to head.

Actually that's false. There is no demand for master loot. It is like in school or prison. Toxic greedy ninja players that were selfish enforced master loot over the community, and the community couldn't step up until now. get over it.

edit: pugs are fun again thank god. if you can't see that you are part of what makes wow toxic.

- - - Updated - - -

You always had the option to make your own group with personal loot, if masterloot is that hated, then it really shouldn't be a problem to form that raid group.

False. At some point in the past, because of the absence of Personal Loot, the community enforced Master Loot to avoid ninjas. This was going on for several expansions until personal loot was introduced. The reason people didn't make personal loot groups was because of the standards.

If they teach you to eat without fork and spoon, you will get used to that so when somebody introduces you fork and spoon you will feel threatened and alienated.

If you keep personal loot for 3 expansions, and then make master loot optional, nobody is ever going to use that ill greedy loot distribution method ever again.

Enough with the make your own group nonsense.

Or else.... try joining a stable guild and ninja your guildmates and reserve loot there.

[SteveRocks]

You always had the option to make your own group with personal loot, if masterloot is that hated, then it really shouldn't be a problem to form that raid group.

What do you think we did? Now we don't have to and anyone that wanted to create their own loot reserved runs? Sorry, now you have to be fair to the other players. So sad!

[oplawlz]

There are plenty of times I remember my guild, in early HFC, needing like a Manno/Sorc trinket and doing a heroic run with pugs with the trinket on reserve. Things like that will go away, but for overall pure pug situations, I don't see a reason to not use PL. However, I still think it should be a choice. If people want to try to scumbag reserve all loot or something, don't join the group.

Nobody deserves any piece of loot more than any other person in a raid, especially a pug. If a guild is carrying they can still pull that nonsense by providing over 80% of the participants . . . otherwise they're not carrying enough to warrant special privileges regarding drops.

Not directly aimed at the person I quoted, but it's funny how so many people use exactly the type of behavior that this change fixes as reasons the change is bad. If you need pugs to complete the content you don't deserve any piece of loot more than they do - simple as that.

[Irian]

I feel like I don't have a horse in this race because I personally would never join a masterloot pug to begin with. They're way too prone to surprise additional reserves and general fuckery, I don't know why you'd waste your time with that instead of just going PL.

That being said, I saw no problem with people who didn't mind the system, I guess. Overall I feel like options being removed isn't a good thing and I see very little actual purpose to this change, but I also don't necessarily think it's a bad thing.

[Bigbazz]

Actually that's false. There is no demand for master loot. It is like in school or prison. Toxic greedy ninja players that were selfish enforced master loot over the community, and the community couldn't step up until now. get over it.

edit: pugs are fun again thank god. if you can't see that you are part of what makes wow toxic.

- - - Updated - - -



False. At some point in the past, because of the absence of Personal Loot, the community enforced Master Loot to avoid ninjas. This was going on for several expansions until personal loot was introduced. The reason people didn't make personal loot groups was because of the standards.

If they teach you to eat without fork and spoon, you will get used to that so when somebody introduces you fork and spoon you will feel threatened and alienated.

If you keep personal loot for 3 expansions, and then make master loot optional, nobody is ever going to use that ill greedy loot distribution method ever again.

Enough with the make your own group nonsense.

Or else.... try joining a stable guild and ninja your guildmates and reserve loot there.

Did you even read the leading posts? I guess not. He mentions how everyone joining the group asks for Master Loot, it has nothing to do with greedy raid leaders and their buddies. At least follow the conversation and now just comment out of context.

[oplawlz]

Did you even read the leading posts? I guess not. He mentions how everyone joining the group asks for Master Loot, it has nothing to do with greedy raid leaders and their buddies. At least follow the conversation and now just comment out of context.

Did you read his post? The people aren't asking because it's better, they're asking because that's what they're used to . . . and I'm going to be frank, I have some serious doubts about how many people have actually asked for master loot. This just sounds like another desperate ploy from someone who's used to creating pugs to gear their own toons with reserved loot, trying to make it sound like the community is better off with ML.