[SURVIVAL]Legion Alpha Discussion

[Maxilian]

Sure. What build are you using for PvE? I gave up on WotM and spec'd Throwing Axes. The rotation feels smoother but I'm still hovering around 50k dps. Can't seem to break through.

I like WotM, it makes me feel that there's always something going on (but my rotation may be a mess) -i also feel is more efficient (just in theory -cause its not like you will always have 4 stacks) than the others

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Same here may be the problem is lack of addons for me. But i kinda forgot to have it on 4 stacks all the time because i am more into watching my dots and mongoose mechanic.

One thing that bothers me about the 4 stacks, that there are many times that you will have to choose between Mongoose bite or the 4 stacks (and that's not a nice feeling)

[Noocta]

I think they need to increase the duration of the WotM buff, because with the Artefact skill, a proper mongoose widow will always make the WotM buff drop

[Keltas]

I think they need to increase the duration of the WotM buff, because with the Artefact skill, a proper mongoose widow will always make the WotM buff drop

Pretty sure that's the design intent. It's a lot of AP but you have to sacrifice a lot to keep it up, and even then you'll lose it a lot. Which is what balances it against throwing axes.

Why do they have so many abilities and stuff that reference your AP and SP now when the inferface doesn't even show you those values anymore? If you didn't have the character sheet addons and/or were new, you'd have no idea wtf any of those are referencing.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Has anyone busted through and started doing 60-70-80k dps on live? If so, what's your secret? I've bursted 77k, but not sustained for an entire boss fight.

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Looking at our tier set, I'm thinking the 2-pc is kind of meh for us since Flanking Strike is normally low on our priority list? While the 4-pc looks amazing.

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Reading now in the forums at Icy Veins that there is some consensus around Spitting Cobra being the best T100 talent. I'll have to give that a shot when I get home. Maybe macro it to Carve and/or Flanking Strike for maximum uptime?

[Keltas]

Has anyone busted through and started doing 60-70-80k dps on live? If so, what's your secret? I've bursted 77k, but not sustained for an entire boss fight.

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Looking at our tier set, I'm thinking the 2-pc is kind of meh for us since Flanking Strike is normally low on our priority list? While the 4-pc looks amazing.

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Reading now in the forums at Icy Veins that there is some consensus around Spitting Cobra being the best T100 talent. I'll have to give that a shot when I get home. Maybe macro it to Carve and/or Flanking Strike for maximum uptime?

If you take it, just use it on CD, it's a hit and forget every minute.

I don't personally like it though. It doesn't do much damage itself, and extra focus only gives you extra raptor strikes, which hit for shit. I honestly can't see how it'd be considered the best talent.

AOTB adds 900~% AP a minute, assuming you use 7ish flanking strikes a minute. You could get more if you prioritized it more, but that's averaging off what I see in my sims and on a target dummy.

Trap expert adds 500% + 525% AP a minute if you use steel trap and 1050% ap if you use imp traps. (before 20% cdr on traps)

Spitting Cobra does 300% AP a minute, and generates 90 focus. You have nothing to spend said focus on except almost 4 raptor strikes.


I can't see how it's worth it over the other two talents.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

If you take it, just use it on CD, it's a hit and forget every minute.

I don't personally like it though. It doesn't do much damage itself, and extra focus only gives you extra raptor strikes, which hit for shit. I honestly can't see how it'd be considered the best talent.

AOTB adds 900~% AP a minute, assuming you use 7ish flanking strikes a minute. You could get more if you prioritized it more, but that's averaging off what I see in my sims and on a target dummy.

Trap expert adds 500% + 525% AP a minute if you use steel trap and 1050% ap if you use imp traps. (before 20% cdr on traps)

Spitting Cobra does 300% AP a minute, and generates 90 focus. You have nothing to spend said focus on except almost 4 raptor strikes.


I can't see how it's worth it over the other two talents.

"The description of Expert Trapper in the build section doesn't match the ability's tooltip -- the tooltip appears to state that it only increases the damage Explosive Trap deals to the enemy that triggers it. If so, at best this talent would work out to 262.5% AP damage to a single target every 15 seconds, assuming the player is following the recommended build from the guide.

Is this really the best choice for the tier? Spitting Cobra does less average dps on its own but the increased focus generation would allow 1.8 extra flanking strikes or 2.25 extra caves per minute. Assuming you have the GCDs to spare to avoid capping your focus without significantly altering your rotation, Spitting Cobra should be better for both single target and multi target.

Math Section:
Expert Trapper: +262.5% AP damage every 15 sec, or 17.5% AP per sec.
Spitting Cobra: +300% AP and +1.8 Flanking Strike every 60 sec.
= (5% AP + 9% weapon damage + 9.684%) AP per sec
= 23.684% AP + 9% base weapon damage per sec"

~ Guest aureus

" I have fixed the mistake.
Yes, it is better."

~ Azortharion

[Zulkhan]

Sure. What build are you using for PvE? I gave up on WotM and spec'd Throwing Axes. The rotation feels smoother but I'm still hovering around 50k dps. Can't seem to break through.

I don't think WotM is intended to have a 100% uptime, it's probably meant to be used "smartly". The most logical approach to me is building stacks during the recharge time of Mongoose Bite, alternate a MB and a RS as you're at 2-3 charges of Mongoose Fury and then just focus entirely on MB while aiming for 5-6 stacks, with the WotM buff falling off pretty much along the MF charges. Then rinse and repeat. I think is the most optimal usage considered the buff's short duration, but I have to test it myself yet.

Still, I have little doubts that in a raid environment Weak Auras will be pretty much a must to keep track of both MF charges and WotM buff without messing things up.

[Keltas]

"The description of Expert Trapper in the build section doesn't match the ability's tooltip -- the tooltip appears to state that it only increases the damage Explosive Trap deals to the enemy that triggers it. If so, at best this talent would work out to 262.5% AP damage to a single target every 15 seconds, assuming the player is following the recommended build from the guide.

Is this really the best choice for the tier? Spitting Cobra does less average dps on its own but the increased focus generation would allow 1.8 extra flanking strikes or 2.25 extra caves per minute. Assuming you have the GCDs to spare to avoid capping your focus without significantly altering your rotation, Spitting Cobra should be better for both single target and multi target.

Math Section:
Expert Trapper: +262.5% AP damage every 15 sec, or 17.5% AP per sec.
Spitting Cobra: +300% AP and +1.8 Flanking Strike every 60 sec.
= (5% AP + 9% weapon damage + 9.684%) AP per sec
= 23.684% AP + 9% base weapon damage per sec"

~ Guest aureus

" I have fixed the mistake.
Yes, it is better."

~ Azortharion

Except you can't have more flanking strikes if you already are keeping it on gcd?

[Deleted]

Except you can't have more flanking strikes if you already are keeping it on gcd?

If you keep FS on CD your already playing the spec horribly and need to l2p.

[Keltas]

If you keep FS on CD your already playing the spec horribly and need to l2p.

Yeah I'm sure I'm absolutely complete trash, thanks for your amazing contribution to this conversation.

[Deleted]

Yeah I'm sure I'm absolutely complete trash, thanks for your amazing contribution to this conversation.

Let me break that down for you since you are to stupid to do any simcraft or to lazy to read any guide.

Flanking strikes damage / focus is HORRIBLE and if you use it on cd you will need to delay other stuff that does better DPF = dps loss.
And you never use any talents for FS since they are even more trash. Hence the only time you use FS is if your about to cap focus (~90+)

[Keltas]

Let me break that down for you since you are to stupid to do any simcraft or to lazy to read any guide.

Flanking strikes damage / focus is HORRIBLE and if you use it on cd you will need to delay other stuff that does better DPF = dps loss.
And you never use any talents for FS since they are even more trash. Hence the only time you use FS is if your about to cap focus (~90+)

You obviously didn't understand the context of what we have been talking about.

I don't use it over other things that are worth more. I just don't see where I can get 2 extra a minute because of a lack of focus. But thanks for explaining what I already know. really helpful to just go around insulting people without even understanding your own context.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Let me break that down for you since you are to stupid to do any simcraft or to lazy to read any guide.

Flanking strikes damage / focus is HORRIBLE and if you use it on cd you will need to delay other stuff that does better DPF = dps loss.
And you never use any talents for FS since they are even more trash. Hence the only time you use FS is if your about to cap focus (~90+)

Regardless of who's right or wrong, there's no reason to be rude about it. Reported.

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Except you can't have more flanking strikes if you already are keeping it on gcd?

Yes - I'm not sure at this point either, but Azortharion says "The sim gains 4 Flanking Strikes over a 2:40 - 4 minute fight, roughly as you'd expect."

I'm thinking that could also mean more Carves or Axes, depending on when the focus trickled in and your CDs were available.

Honestly, I'm not sure about anything with this rotation yet lol. I didn't spec SV with the idea of being a mad bomber. That sounds more like a goblin and less like the troll shadow hunter I'm trying to role play. I'd much rather focus on fighting with my glaive. But the tuning seems tilted toward explosive traps and dragon grenades atm. Even if I do nothing with enhancing traps, Explosive Trap will still need to be part of my rotation. So idk I'm just rolling with it. At least the explosions don't dominate the screen and I can kind of ignore them.

[Keltas]

Regardless of who's right or wrong, there's no reason to be rude about it. Reported.

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Yes - I'm not sure at this point either, but Azortharion says "The sim gains 4 Flanking Strikes over a 2:40 - 4 minute fight, roughly as you'd expect."

I'm thinking that could also mean more Carves or Axes, depending on when the focus trickled in and your CDs were available.

Honestly, I'm not sure about anything with this rotation yet lol. I didn't spec SV with the idea of being a mad bomber. That sounds more like a goblin and less like the troll shadow hunter I'm trying to role play. I'd much rather focus on fighting with my glaive. But the tuning seems tilted toward explosive traps and dragon grenades atm. Even if I do nothing with enhancing traps, Explosive Trap will still need to be part of my rotation. So idk I'm just rolling with it. At least the explosions don't dominate the screen and I can kind of ignore them.

Considering how good they've been with relative talent balance on most classes, they're probably close enough that it doesn't matter. I have been trying it some more, and I'd consider it, although I just don't feel the benefit of it. Probably due to fights being so short in dungeons.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Right now I am spec'd like this, but I'm changing it almost every day.

~ Throwing Axes
~ Snake Hunter
~ Posthaste
~ Improved Traps
~ Camouflage
~ Serpent Sting
~ Spitting Cobra

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Considering how good they've been with relative talent balance on most classes, they're probably close enough that it doesn't matter. I have been trying it some more, and I'd consider it, although I just don't feel the benefit of it. Probably due to fights being so short in dungeons.

YES! I'm running into that too (fights too short). Most guides are written with 5 minute raid boss fights in mind. The right spec for those might not be the best spec for 5-mans, pvp, or world content.

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Looking at the guide for Opening Sequence. Interesting that they recommend Throwing Axes before Mongoose or even Aspect of the Eagle. I had not been prioritizing Axes this highly.

This section describes the recommended way to start the fight as a Survival Hunter. It assumes you are using the recommended talents for the spec.
1.Just before the encounter starts, use your Draenic Agility Potion Icon Draenic Agility Potion.
2.Cast Explosive Trap
3.Cast Throwing Axes
4.Cast Dragonsfire Grenade
5.Activate Aspect of the Eagle
6.Cast Mongoose Bite until you're at 0 charges.
7.Activate Snake Hunter
8.Cast Mongoose Bite until you're at 0 charges.
9.Proceed with your normal rotation, but prioritizing Mongoose Bite higher than anything else.

[Eapoe]

Is it just me or does the 4p look god awful for SV hunters? Especially when compared to the other 2 specs. When you think of how often you use the ability going on BM to lower BW, just to have BW increase the damage ouput of all pets even more, and compare that alone to SV's 2p with an ability we use to keep from focus capping (forcing a playstyle to use it and prioritize it over others) and the 4p of reaching 6 stacks, which as far as I know you either have to spec and get lucky as shit or only have a proc every 3 minutes to do that, it makes the tier seem very lacking.
Is there something I'm missing or is SV just getting the shaft for 1st tier from a crap set?

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Is it just me or does the 4p look god awful for SV hunters? Especially when compared to the other 2 specs. When you think of how often you use the ability going on BM to lower BW, just to have BW increase the damage ouput of all pets even more, and compare that alone to SV's 2p with an ability we use to keep from focus capping (forcing a playstyle to use it and prioritize it over others) and the 4p of reaching 6 stacks, which as far as I know you either have to spec and get lucky as shit or only have a proc every 3 minutes to do that, it makes the tier seem very lacking.
Is there something I'm missing or is SV just getting the shaft for 1st tier from a crap set?

I think the 4pc should be great; it's the 2pc I find lacking. I hit six stacks with every opener by using Snake Hunter, then again every time it comes off cd. But a buff to FS is a buff to the talent we rarely use. Aspect of the Beast is a waste for the same reason. They should consider re-tuning FS so we might actually get to enjoy the various buffs they offer for it.

[Keltas]

At least in sims, the 4pc is really powerful. Especially on cleave fights because you get 50% damage on the artifact ability and most of your cleave (since it's burst AoE).


I've been messing around with caltrops on beta and live. It ticks 22 times over 22 seconds on every target. With expert trapper it ends up being a ton of damage. I could see it being better for dungeon packs because they don't really live enough to get multiple ETs on them, but you'd probably get near the full caltrop.

Unfortunately on long fights it ends up terrible, because you only get 12 seconds (with AF trait) and it doesn't double tick. It does leave 2 patches up at the same time though.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Considering how good they've been with relative talent balance on most classes, they're probably close enough that it doesn't matter. I have been trying it some more, and I'd consider it, although I just don't feel the benefit of it. Probably due to fights being so short in dungeons.

The more I think about it tonight, the more I'm inclined to spec Expert Trapper. It's just a better all-around talent than the other two. Spitting Cobra might payoff during long boss fights, but even then only by a slim margin. Expert Trapper is passive and effective, applying to short fights, long fights, and even pvp situations.

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At least in sims, the 4pc is really powerful. Especially on cleave fights because you get 50% damage on the artifact ability and most of your cleave (since it's burst AoE).


I've been messing around with caltrops on beta and live. It ticks 22 times over 22 seconds on every target. With expert trapper it ends up being a ton of damage. I could see it being better for dungeon packs because they don't really live enough to get multiple ETs on them, but you'd probably get near the full caltrop.

Unfortunately on long fights it ends up terrible, because you only get 12 seconds (with AF trait) and it doesn't double tick. It does leave 2 patches up at the same time though.

I played with caltrops, but didn't like the extra step of having to place them. If I could hit one button and have them scatter in front of me I might use them more. It's a minor difference, but I can use two other abilities in the time it takes me to place caltrops.

[Typhod]

Looking at the guide for Opening Sequence. Interesting that they recommend Throwing Axes before Mongoose or even Aspect of the Eagle. I had not been prioritizing Axes this highly.

This section describes the recommended way to start the fight as a Survival Hunter. It assumes you are using the recommended talents for the spec.
1.Just before the encounter starts, use your Draenic Agility Potion Icon Draenic Agility Potion.
2.Cast Explosive Trap
3.Cast Throwing Axes
4.Cast Dragonsfire Grenade
5.Activate Aspect of the Eagle
6.Cast Mongoose Bite until you're at 0 charges.
7.Activate Snake Hunter
8.Cast Mongoose Bite until you're at 0 charges.
9.Proceed with your normal rotation, but prioritizing Mongoose Bite higher than anything else.

I think the main reason you want to use Throwing Axes before AotE and entering MB window is because you want it on CD. Therefore you won't lose DPS of it "not recharging". Meaning that it is worth to delay the MB window by 1 GCD to get Throwing Axes on CD, you won't use both charges (as far as I know) of Throwing Axes in the opener.

What I don't understand in the opener is why Lacerate isn't there, seeing as it does more damage than Throwing Axes over time.