what spec to raid with at 110

[Jellospally]

Realy? that seems like abit of a waste? i mean its a 45 sec cd vs a 2 min base / ~1-1:30 min CD with kindling , you're loosing at least 1 Flame on.

With Kindling and at around 50% crit on beta I was seeing the fact I had to wait for flame on to come off cd around 15+ seconds when combust is just sitting off CD if I used it on CD. With kindling you can't use flame on on cd if you have any sort of crit(you can easily have 45%+ crit by like 815-820 btw)

[Ammanas]

Definitely fire. The current design is kind of silly in that fire currently has no weaknesses as a progression spec.

Sustained single target? Fire is best
Sustained cleave? Fire is best
Burst AoE? Fire is best (possibly arcane, but fire is at least comparable)
Mobility? Fire is best
Burst for important adds? Fire is best
Target swapping for smaller adds? Fire is best

The only thing I can even think of is survivability, where Arcane probably wins just because of G invis. Before fire was weak on pure single target and more importantly swapping to priority adds. Now that pyro is all front loaded damage (no more dot) + combustion rework + new ways to generate heating up/banking PF its one of the strongest ranged specs for swapping to adds too.

The number balance would have to change significantly across the three specs to make you really want to play another spec over fire for progression atm. Even if arcane were to be buffed to be better single target, its still gonna be way worse for any kind of target swapping or add killing.

Off topic but mage balance in HFC was some of the best I've ever seen. All three specs were comparable and had clear strengths/weaknesses. For progression I played all three, and even within fights you could play a different spec or talent to provide whatever your specific raid comp/strat needed. I have no idea why they think separate artifact power grind for every spec is a good idea, I don't see how it can be anything but a negative for high end raiding.

[Deleted]

fire currently has no weaknesses as a progression spec.

Not that it has any big ones but let's play Devil's Advocate for the sake of analysis. The Cauterize effect is just weak for PvE teams compared to the double Ice Barriers of the other two. That spell is going to be op. It already does like 1/4th of your health and when it's double you'll have a big defense on you when personal defenses really count. That HoT of cauterize is almost nothing when you have healers spamming passive healing.

The automatic AOE is also kinda weird. I don't expect them to design any Gorefiends this time around but if they do, I expect about 90% of guilds will ban Fire mages. Yes, you can still do it properly but it would be probably not worth it for the mediocre and the average guilds, maybe even some good ones depended on setup.

There is a ton of activity to play this spec in terms of key presses per minute. I would be surprised if there is another spec that has to press so much spell in so little time (if there is I bet it's a melee). This can be a problem for people multitasking during raids or simply a strain.

[stevenho]

Not that it has any big ones but let's play Devil's Advocate for the sake of analysis. The Cauterize effect is just weak for PvE teams compared to the double Ice Barriers of the other two. That spell is going to be op. It already does like 1/4th of your health and when it's double you'll have a big defense on you when personal defenses really count. That HoT of cauterize is almost nothing when you have healers spamming passive healing.

Doesn't really matter, DPS specs are not picked based upon best survivability.

The automatic AOE is also kinda weird. I don't expect them to design any Gorefiends this time around but if they do, I expect about 90% of guilds will ban Fire mages.

Naaah. They would move the add clump 1 yard outside of the (small) ignite spread range.

[PowerOfTwo]

Definitely fire. The current design is kind of silly in that fire currently has no weaknesses as a progression spec.

Sustained single target? Fire is best
Sustained cleave? Fire is best
Burst AoE? Fire is best (possibly arcane, but fire is at least comparable)
Mobility? Fire is best
Burst for important adds? Fire is best
Target swapping for smaller adds? Fire is best

The only thing I can even think of is survivability, where Arcane probably wins just because of G invis. Before fire was weak on pure single target and more importantly swapping to priority adds. Now that pyro is all front loaded damage (no more dot) + combustion rework + new ways to generate heating up/banking PF its one of the strongest ranged specs for swapping to adds too.

The number balance would have to change significantly across the three specs to make you really want to play another spec over fire for progression atm. Even if arcane were to be buffed to be better single target, its still gonna be way worse for any kind of target swapping or add killing.

Off topic but mage balance in HFC was some of the best I've ever seen. All three specs were comparable and had clear strengths/weaknesses. For progression I played all three, and even within fights you could play a different spec or talent to provide whatever your specific raid comp/strat needed. I have no idea why they think separate artifact power grind for every spec is a good idea, I don't see how it can be anything but a negative for high end raiding.

Indeed, just mechanicaly fire is superior right now to the other two, numbers would have to pretty much go down by a quarter to even consider another spec. That said tho, i do see maybe flame patch getting a big nerf as for burst AoE flame patch was my biggest hitter by a countery mile and tbh the other two arn't vastly superior in most situations. Unstable magic is the clear winner in patchwerk scenarios but i can see Flame Patch just being a lock in for 99% of the expansion as even sporadic add spawns are worth keeping the talent for, ESPECIALY ~2 month in once we get aftershock as well.

[Deleted]

Indeed, just mechanicaly fire is superior right now to the other two, numbers would have to pretty much go down by a quarter to even consider another spec.

Down!? You want all 3 specs to be unviable or what?
It's the other two that can't compete with any other classes and need to go up, most other classes have specs that already do as much damage as Fire, Warlocks are even higher.

[Seneca]

It's the other two that can't compete with any other classes and need to go up, most other classes have specs that already do as much damage as Fire, Warlocks are even higher.

Are we sure that the issue, here, is just a numerical one? Because I think there are quite a lot of things which can't simply be changed with numbers.

[The Archmage]

Are we sure that the issue, here, is just a numerical one? Because I think there are quite a lot of things which can't simply be changed with numbers.

To be honest, i think the spec plays a lot better in Legion compared to live. Issues are mainly numerical.

Single target, it's the same as always, no biggies there. We lost Prismatic Crystal (which i was never a fan of, to be honest) and the god awful RoP is turned into something that still irritates me, but definetly more bareable.

AoE is where things really needed to change, and i like what they did. Arcane Rebound would feel awsome IF it didn't hit like a wet noodle, making you feel like you just wasted you arcane charges; Touch of the Magi would be good and satisfying, IF it didn't last barely enough to realise it's even there, giving you some action time to actually work with it.

A couple of things, though, are not linked to numbers. Arcane Explosion being melee is still odd design that bugs me out. We are still the ONLY ranged dps spec that needs to go melee in order to do sustained AoE: some say that this makes the spec unique, i say it's just bad and old design, that i could accept 10 years ago, not really now.
Some talents still do not convince me fully: Resonance is a damage increase to one of our major abilities SO significant that, when you use that same ability without it (let's face it, Charged Up has little competition there) it makes you feel AGAIN like you just wasted your Arcane Charges. Quickening, although powerful, is designed to force players not to Arcane Barrage, which is THE ability that should make the player FEEL the awsomeness of the Arcane spec, that "nowimmaunloadatruckonyourfacemomentKABOOM!" that is proper to the spec... and it's denied by none other that the last tier talent.

[Xellana]

I agree that fire feels like it is best at everything right now.
But consider this. With the gear level at the moment in the pre-patch we are at almost 50% crit.
When Legion starts and we are fresh 110, we won't be even close to that.

Don't you think that fire may feel quite underwhelming once we start casting mainly fireballs and praying to god that we get a crit once in a while?
This could be the reason that frost and arcane may be more viable in the first progression in Legion - much like it was in Highmaul in WoD.

[Deleted]

Arcane isn't any beast at the moment but I think we value it lower than it deserves. It's pretty clear that most of us start with the mindset of the 6.x rotation and this time around the spec is way more versatile. If for example you do something like Gorefiend you have 0 interest to be high on mana during feast, literally 0. You can Burn to lowest mana possible, Evocate, then burn to the absolute possible again, and after you do that who cares, you can do only x1 charge cycles for the first few seconds and then do adds without having any penalty for lower or mid-level mana.

[Vahlen37]

I agree that fire feels like it is best at everything right now.
But consider this. With the gear level at the moment in the pre-patch we are at almost 50% crit.
When Legion starts and we are fresh 110, we won't be even close to that.

Don't you think that fire may feel quite underwhelming once we start casting mainly fireballs and praying to god that we get a crit once in a while?
This could be the reason that frost and arcane may be more viable in the first progression in Legion - much like it was in Highmaul in WoD.

In legion you will be at about 25-35-ish% crit by the time you hit 110 and get a couple of items. I have not experienced on the beta under any circumstances a "pray this fireball crits" moment until now to get that heating up on and rolling. Also, you have the Enhanced Pyrotechnics buff which will get rolling if you don't crit with your fireballs, which will pretty much ensure you won't be going for too long without a chance to go on without a crit. Therefore, overall, fire is endlessly more fluid and...well...fun of the 3 specs.

[Deleted]

I agree that fire feels like it is best at everything right now.
But consider this. With the gear level at the moment in the pre-patch we are at almost 50% crit.
When Legion starts and we are fresh 110, we won't be even close to that.

Don't you think that fire may feel quite underwhelming once we start casting mainly fireballs and praying to god that we get a crit once in a while?
This could be the reason that frost and arcane may be more viable in the first progression in Legion - much like it was in Highmaul in WoD.

In ~840ilvl gear on beta (easily achievable before raids open) i have 40%+ crit chance, so crit rating will not be any issue and you get Phoenix's Flames which helps too. You will cast FB even less then on prepatch

[Archmage Alodi]

I agree that fire feels like it is best at everything right now.
But consider this. With the gear level at the moment in the pre-patch we are at almost 50% crit.
When Legion starts and we are fresh 110, we won't be even close to that.

Don't you think that fire may feel quite underwhelming once we start casting mainly fireballs and praying to god that we get a crit once in a while?
This could be the reason that frost and arcane may be more viable in the first progression in Legion - much like it was in Highmaul in WoD.

You can easily get +50% crit with heroic dungeon and world quest items (Flat Crit/Int trinkets from WQ)

[jhesian]

I would love to play frost but the dps just isn't there at the moment

[Krazzorx]

Arcane I think mechanically can compete with Fire because it does have a good aoe kit. So Ofc then it comes down to tuning.

Arcane does have the nice utility of displacement and greater invis in addition to that large ice barrier.

Frost I don't see a fit unless it just winds up being tuned very high.

[gallamann]

Frost when you can freeze a target is fine, what makes Glacial Spike awesome while leveling is not only is it a chunk of damage, you can follow up with 3-4 NON FoF Ice Lances into that freeze and shatter them all. Ray of Frost, once you are down to 2-3 ticks remaining, use pet freeze to crit those last ticks and smile. All those opportunities to use freeze and hence cast into a shatter are lovely.

Now swap to dungeon/raid bosses, that freeze mechanic just went BUH-BYE, and that is a huge hit to damage. Is it the ~30% difference in ST between Fire and Frost, no clue.

Blizzard can fix this easily by allowing Pet Freeze, Frost Nova, Ice Nova and Glacial Spike, to also apply Winter's Chill equal to their freeze effect. Thereby allowing Frost to enjoy the same freeze damage against targets that can't be frozen as we enjoy everywhere else in the game.

[Nezek]

Personally I think Mage in general has had some odd changes, although this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The changes seem to look overwhelming or for better use of an explanation, confusingly simple... at first.... but if we actually look in to these properly rather than just brushing off what we see on the surface as "you have broken mage", I think we'll find some really fun and viable mechanics.

It looks to me that both Fire and Arcane will revolve around a stacking mechanic in relation to the individual spec.

- Arcane having quickening which synergises nicely with lower cast times, nether tempest and probably other spells/abilities which I have no knowledge of yet, it seems to me that somewhat mastering the addition and maintenance of these stacks will give you a really overpowered boost to damage output and it looks like it could be REALLY fun to play.

- Fire having Pyretic Incantation which looks again like the mastering of stacking these crit multipliers (if there is no cap) will unleash an astronomical amount of damage, working out a way to keep these crits going back to back (which actually seems very viable with many of the new 100% crit abilities/mechanics/talents) would mean some serious DPS.

So without looking too much in to things, on the surface and pre-Legion, things might seem clunky and not fun at all, but just wait guys, I'm sure we're going to have a VERY interesting expansion ahead.


Peace and love,

Nezek

[Gaidax]

I think Fire is being carried by their level 90 talents, I seen some odd mages in Beta using Unstable Magic and it was pretty piss poor, unlike Flame Patch or Living Bomb. Living Bomb is OK because it's only a factor in AoE, but Flame Patch, that one was clearly overbuffed, which is something that happens when you buff things 200%.

I am sure Blizz will drop Flame Patch down to more reasonable levels and will balance Fire one way or another because yes, right now it's simply good at everything which is more the reason nobody, aside from some rare hipster, plays anything else in Beta.

[Torian kel]

So what, in the beta right now people use their hot streak procs on flamestrike with flame patch talented? Is it that more powerful than pyroblast?

[antelope591]

Fire is the best by far right now...even does more than arcane single target. Arcane needs a serious buff on all fronts right now. Frost, I haven't actually played with a decent frost mage in either raid or dungeons on beta yet lol.