Should Masterloot be brought back for pugs?

[Bigbazz]

Did you read his post? The people aren't asking because it's better, they're asking because that's what they're used to . . . and I'm going to be frank, I have some serious doubts about how many people have actually asked for master loot. This just sounds like another desperate ploy from someone who's used to creating pugs to gear their own toons with reserved loot, trying to make it sound like the community is better off with ML.

You're making some pretty baseless assumptions here as the basis of your post, come on. And no I don't create pugs, I was in a high end raiding guild until I stopped raiding in January, I just returned and joined another. So no I'm not biased.

[oplawlz]

You're making some pretty baseless assumptions here as the basis of your post, come on. And no I don't create pugs, I was in a high end raiding guild until I stopped raiding in January, I just returned and joined another. So no I'm not biased.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't directing that bit at you . . . just the general idea that "everyone joining the group asks for Master Loot" as you mentioned. I feel like anyone claiming that has a pretty clear agenda - but that's definitely just a guess on my part, why I said I have doubts.

[Bapestar]

WTF.....why was it taken away???? Wow that is fucking stupid...

[Berengil]

Frankly, I don't think Blizzard went far enough. All loot to Personal loot everywhere in the game, I say. F loot councils, ninjas, dkp, and so forth.

[Sansnom]

You miss the point, it makes pugs more likely to apply to groups while making leaders less likely to make groups. There has never been a shortage of people applying to groups, but plenty of shortages of players willing to put in the work to organise and run a raid group. This situation for sure helps fairness in the average full on random groups, but mixed organised groups are hurt.

Why is that? Why would PL discourage people from forming groups? If anything, it relief them of the burden of handling loot to the people who roll the highest and if they are qualified for the loot, such as tank weapons to tanks etc.

Unless of course, people are discourage from forming raids because they are no longer IN CONTROL OF WHO GETS THE LOOTS.

[Exodeus]

Sure the occasional ninjalooter is annoying,

You must not pug much it was pretty much every other group and the ones that weren't outright ninjalooting had half the loot of the whole raid reserved.

[Bapestar]

You must not pug much it was pretty much every other group and the ones that weren't outright ninjalooting had half the loot of the whole raid reserved.

Please stop lying. I pug alot, and don't run into ninjalooters that often. Yea many groups reserve loot, but many groups don't. If you like PL, and hate ML/reserved loot, you can easily find a group. It is bs, how they are forcing everyone to use PL...

[Bigbazz]

Why is that? Why would PL discourage people from forming groups? If anything, it relief them of the burden of handling loot to the people who roll the highest and if they are qualified for the loot, such as tank weapons to tanks etc.

Unless of course, people are discourage from forming raids because they are no longer IN CONTROL OF WHO GETS THE LOOTS.

Exactly, being in control of who gets the loot was the basis of many raids that weren't just greedy Ninjas. Well geared players making a run for a specific item, inviting other players along who get to roll on the rest, essentially boosting. Infact there are a myriad of situations that come under the boosting umbrella that are positive, not to mention split guild runs, regular organised pugs (a friend of mine used to run a weekly Mythic SOO run, then in WOD Mythic HFC clear) where they want to assign loot specifically.

Personal loot is not very optimal in organised raiding, early on it was not dropping much loot causing a lot of complaints and actually in Legion right now the HFC personal loot is seemingly on the surface not dropping as much loot as it was pre-patch, this is something Blizzard would have to address as they did before, and it's something that can't be confirmed unless Blizzard responds, yet it causes people to feel disenfranchised when Personal Loot is the only option available, while they also experience what appears to be less overall loot.

Yes it wasnt nice when a raid leader starts a group and then just reserves and item, but it's the responsibility of the players to decide if they want to join those groups or not, and it's clearly true that players would rather join them than create their own groups with fair rules, because if it was not the case then the problem would have rectified itself, the reality is that people did join those groups because they still preferred that option to running their own group.

Just the same it's also likely that the player making the group has less to gain if he/she is not reserving an item, but that can come from both a genuine or malicious angle. Perhaps the player is only putting in the effort because they need a specific item, the player might be bringing experience and geared players to that group that would guarentee success that you would not get otherwise. In that event any player joining is absolutely benefitting in most cases, not losing out.

[Exodeus]

Please stop lying. I pug alot, and don't run into ninjalooters that often. Yea many groups reserve loot, but many groups don't. If you like PL, and hate ML/reserved loot, you can easily find a group. It is bs, how they are forcing everyone to use PL...

I guess i'm just very unlucky then, i've been pugging on my main just to cap the ring since my guild split shortly after clearing archi heroic and my work doesnt really allow me to go for a mythic raid scheduel or most heroic guild for that matter..... but to the point I was full BIS heroic for my spec before stat priority changes so i didn't really care what loot rules were i just wanted my ring token from archi but there was never a group that didn't either have 1 or more types of trinket tokens reserved or ninjad them anyway after kill.
The honest raidleader is the exception not the rule.

[Bapestar]

I guess i'm just very unlucky then, i've been pugging on my main just to cap the ring since my guild split shortly after clearing archi heroic and my work doesnt really allow me to go for a mythic raid scheduel or most heroic guild for that matter..... but to the point I was full BIS heroic for my spec before stat priority changes so i didn't really care what loot rules were i just wanted my ring token from archi but there was never a group that didn't either have 1 or more types of trinket tokens reserved or ninjad them anyway after kill.
The honest raidleader is the exception not the rule.

Well if you looked, there were groups with no reserves. This was an unnecessary change, because if you preferred PL, it was not hard at all to find a PL group.

[Snuffleupagus]

"I have no self control and am incapable of joining PL runs or starting my own group, therefore Blizzard must change to suit me"

The only change required was an inability to change looting methods during a boss encounter.

[Kreeshak]

Exactly, being in control of who gets the loot was the basis of many raids that weren't just greedy Ninjas. Well geared players making a run for a specific item, inviting other players along who get to roll on the rest, essentially boosting. Infact there are a myriad of situations that come under the boosting umbrella that are positive, not to mention split guild runs, regular organised pugs (a friend of mine used to run a weekly Mythic SOO run, then in WOD Mythic HFC clear) where they want to assign loot specifically.

Personal loot is not very optimal in organised raiding, early on it was not dropping much loot causing a lot of complaints and actually in Legion right now the HFC personal loot is seemingly on the surface not dropping as much loot as it was pre-patch, this is something Blizzard would have to address as they did before, and it's something that can't be confirmed unless Blizzard responds, yet it causes people to feel disenfranchised when Personal Loot is the only option available, while they also experience what appears to be less overall loot.

Yes it wasnt nice when a raid leader starts a group and then just reserves and item, but it's the responsibility of the players to decide if they want to join those groups or not, and it's clearly true that players would rather join them than create their own groups with fair rules, because if it was not the case then the problem would have rectified itself, the reality is that people did join those groups because they still preferred that option to running their own group.

Just the same it's also likely that the player making the group has less to gain if he/she is not reserving an item, but that can come from both a genuine or malicious angle. Perhaps the player is only putting in the effort because they need a specific item, the player might be bringing experience and geared players to that group that would guarentee success that you would not get otherwise. In that event any player joining is absolutely benefitting in most cases, not losing out.

The underline part is wrong. Personal loot groups happen often, and they get filled in milliseconds because the vast majority of the player base excepts personal loot and that is common sense. What is left is Master loot groups, which fill rather slowly, no surprise and people are inclined to join because something is better than nothing.

If the players realized how much better in every aspect Personal Loot is. If Blizzard disabled Master loot for a couple of months, the base would join better and absolutely nobody in their senses would join a group where loot is reserved.

Finally Master Looters take advantage of their anonymity. There was no such a thing of reserving anything in Vanilla and TBC before cross server groups made possible. If anybody dared to reserve something it would be immediately get blacklisted and crusaded by the whole server for being greedy. And rightfully so.

And let's be honest, reserving items is a dick move no matter what angle you look it from. All of us missed one particular piece from time to time. All of us. But that didn't change our integrity and make us greedy in lack of words to describe it without getting infracted. It is challenges that forge us to become a better person be social helping and friendly.

Forgot to mention, that people reserve items for additional reasons. Not only are they after the last item they miss, but they want to reserve items for their fifth alt as well. And the funny part is that these alt persons, often under perform in the raid because they can't grasp the difference in mechanics between how their main plays compared to their alt. How often do you see 10/13M leaders on alts fail on basic stuff? xD

[brunnor]

Nobody deserves any piece of loot more than any other person in a raid, especially a pug. If a guild is carrying they can still pull that nonsense by providing over 80% of the participants . . . otherwise they're not carrying enough to warrant special privileges regarding drops.

Not directly aimed at the person I quoted, but it's funny how so many people use exactly the type of behavior that this change fixes as reasons the change is bad. If you need pugs to complete the content you don't deserve any piece of loot more than they do - simple as that.

My point is, wouldn't people rather get in a 13/13 pug with a single item reserved instead of no run at all? Because that is going to be the option. I know higher end guilds won't bother doing pugs when they don't control the outcome. It's not a huge percent of pug runs or anything, but losing SOME pug runs is never a good thing.

[Deleted]

My point is, wouldn't people rather get in a 13/13 pug with a single item reserved instead of no run at all? Because that is going to be the option. I know higher end guilds won't bother doing pugs when they don't control the outcome. It's not a huge percent of pug runs or anything, but losing SOME pug runs is never a good thing.

The fun part is that there is no such a thing as 13/13 pug with 1 item reserved. Need only tier hands? Do only Soc and reserve them.
Got no gear at all? Create 13/13 group wit all important stuff reserved and get some people boost your lazy ass.

As much as I hate Warforged/Titanforged/socket random shit, I think that Titanforged stuff is what keeps decent pugs running in Legion.
And I prefer this way over this "Legal ninjalooting"

[Lord Havik]

The PUGs cried it away. They wanted it gone, now it's gone.

The ones who develop buyer's remorse will just have to live with their choice.

[Deleted]

Absolutely not.

[kamuimac]

the resoults of this poll doesnt surprise me even a bit - there is a solid reason why so many scrubs refuse to make their own groups only want to leech on someone else's effort and demend all the best loot for no effort .

they will learn very soon how badly they fucked up when they will be stuck in their miserable personal loot scrub pugs unable to kill anything while good players will be pushing mythic + 15 and gear that way.

you will reap what you sow.

Finally Master Looters take advantage of their anonymity. There was no such a thing of reserving anything in Vanilla and TBC before cross server groups made possible. If anybody dared to reserve something it would be immediately get blacklisted and crusaded by the whole server for being greedy. And rightfully so.

let me guess - either you didnt play vanilla at all or pinacle of your raiding was MC - if you were geared enough you could have been biggest douchebag on whole server and everybody still wanted to be your friend especially if you were a geared warrior tank things like blacklist were true for shitty undergeared players if you were geared you could have done nearly eveyrthing besides taking stuff from guildies and nobody dared to tell you anything in fear you would leave their guild and jump stright to better one

[kritisk]

The PUGs cried it away. They wanted it gone, now it's gone.

The ones who develop buyer's remorse will just have to live with their choice.

What a load of shit. Shovel worthy.

My guild loves the change. We take pugs on runs and have always included them as we would our own. Why? Because they are expected to contribute while there and their efforts are appreciated. It builds community and shows respect. Sure, it might occasionally mean one of us doesn't get something we neede; but, most of us have decided we'd rather be bigger than loot issues even if that means it means a minor hit on next tier or whatever. Keeping things positive and honestly fair has served us for as long as wow has existed and at high skill levels in the game.

In response to the OP: love the change as too many people got greedy and lost site of the social aspect that is vital in this game. You can't fuck over people and expect no repercussions. If the community had been handling this appropriately, it's doubtful this would have been developed.

- - - Updated - - -

you will reap what you sow.

Sounds like you'd be wise to take this to heart yourself.

[Lord Havik]

What a load of shit. Shovel worthy.

My guild loves the change. We take pugs on runs and have always included them as we would our own.

Translation: "I reject your statement because: <insert unrelated exposition about guild runs and community decency>!"

I fail to see how your guild's anecdotal love for this new system is in any way contradictory to my statement that the PUG community complaining in the forums is why the current system of no-ML-in-groupfinder exists, and that those who wanted it this way and now don't like it will have to learn to live with the way things are.

The concepts that 'some people like it', and 'some who wanted it are not satisfied with it', are not mutually exclusive.

[MyndZero]

Ya people only use ML to reserve items, not once has anyone swtiched ML right before pull or ninjaed items not reserved.

Ya clearly blizzard made this change because the last system was so perfect....

Every system has a flaw. This personal loot system has a flaw. You CANNOT trade items that are better then what you've got, so if you wanna give a friend an item you got because he hasn't gotten anything, WELL YOU CAN'T. That's just an example. This system isn't perfect either, but there is a place for both.