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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    as long as math not transfers in magicly dropping more and better gear as back then, no, you are wrong
    You can do that.

    People generally didn't do split runs in Vanilla. It would stand to reason that if you took current days model of raiding and applied it to the whole of Vanilla, these guilds would have legions of geared characters through the entire development cycle and eventual launch of Naxxaramas. You know what one of the underlying criteria was for defeating four horsemen? Generally you wanted a lot of tanks with T2, and in some instances you would want to farm the stupid Hydra boss in Zul'Gurub for the trinket that essentially meant that your taunt couldn't miss. Four horsemen was difficult, but a lot of the underlying difficulty was because a missed taunt (miss chance being 8.6%, without any % hit IIRC) would basically cause a wipe.

    People didn't necessarily have to grind Naxx exclusively in order to progress through Naxx. Most of the progression and prep would take place before Naxx even came out. In this make believe hypothetical world that this question is being asked, it would be assumed that if a Naxx would be dropped today, raiders would be far more prepared for it than they would have been in the past. How many guilds did several split runs of AQ40 or BWL prior to Naxx coming out? Probably none. You're not taking into account how prepared people would be by today's standards.

    It also wasn't common for people to use world buffs (Onyxia, BRS, ZG or form Felwood flower groups) until late into Naxx. Could you do it without? Yeah, but most guilds would save as many of these as they possibly could until the end of the week for Loatheb, Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad. If guilds ran into problems early, you can be rest assured methods like this would be abused far earlier in the instance.

    Game is also much more open now, there really aren't as many true contenders for competition at the very top like there once was. Poaching and leaving guilds happened back then, and in the event there was gear checks that dozens of split runs couldn't overtake, you can be rest assured that people would hop around. I mean look at guilds taking mages who had the legendary staff from Firelands for spine in Cata?

    I think some of you are vastly underestimating how much people raid now compared to then. As painful as it was with 40 people, you could be rest assured that in this scenario of a Naxx dropping that guilds using today's mindset would have several or more alternate characters running through MC/BWL/AQ40 in preparation. It really doesn't matter if there is one difficulty to each instance, you could still do it.

    I hope some of you realize that the only DPS worth a damn in vanilla was rogues, warriors and mages. Rogues and warriors being bargain basement as far as getting raid worthy gear was concerned. Aside from weapons a lot of the best trinkets were from 5 man dungeons (hand of justice was essentially top tier the entire time, and the 2% crit trinket from a quest could hold up the entire time too) and in the case of warriors just random shit strung throughout every raid, some of the shit they would use was crafted. Basically gearing the only DPS that matters wasn't particularly difficult. Even if they were shitty pieces of armor you would still want to run with +5-10 weapon skill because of how glancing blows worked, with rogues being upwards of 70% of their damage coming from auto attacks. Didn't matter if another rogue in your group was decked out in AQ40 gear, if you were a rogue and you had +10 weapon skill you would dump truck their damage because they didn't know how to properly gear. Edgemaster handguards ring a bell to any warriors back in Vanilla?

  2. #142
    the pedestal people put vanilla on continues to be hilarious

    naxx wouldn't be that hard if you tuned at at a contemporary level and dropped today's players into it. I mean, we saw this in wrath; naxx was muuuuch easier than the raids they were designing fresh at that time (sarth 3D, malygos, ulduar.)

    There's nothing in naxx that's as mechanically complex as... any fight in HFC really (maybe thaddius just cause the positioning is tight) and raids are much more flexible w/r/t composition due to offspecs than they were in vanilla. If our mythic raid suddenly needed four tanks for some reason (i.e. horsemen), we have 4-5 people who play tank OS who could fill in a pinch.

    Furthermore, data tools are much better. Mechanics that were semi-mysterious at 60 (i.e. how does hateful strike work?) would today be figured out in short order because we have the data to do so.

    If you made gear drops as restrictive as they were in vanilla I guess it'd take guilds a while to farm and gear up to get by patch/thaddius, but that's just a time gate really. Players in the aggregate are much better now than they were back then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I'm going to guess, fairly safely, that if you took a current top raiding guild, and put them in a time machine back to vanilla, aside from acquiring the appropriate gear, Naxx itself wouldn't last long at all.

    Conversely, if you were to take a snapshot of the best raid guild from 2004 or 5, put them in a time machine and drop them current mythic, they'd get annihilated.
    seriously

    can you imagine taking a group that was progressing toward the end of naxx40 (or for that matter, sunwell) and giving them mythic mannoroth to have a go at? It'd blow their goddamn minds

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    If you go by this mindset and aplly all rules of WoD to Nax = they needed the best gear possible =:

    they would need 7-8 tanks with full t18 that is titanforged, because this is the best gear, have fun to farm that with all the split runs you want lol

    pro tipp if you use math on this the ammount of dropping and farming these = lel
    This is nonsense. You didn't need gear that was that good, and the difference in stats between AQ 40 gear was less than the difference in stats from heroic HFC to mythic HFC. And you don't have a clue how rare Titanforged gear is. You could do split mythic HFC runs for like 5 years and easily not end up with full Titanforged on even a single person.

    And the question OP asked was not about applying the rules of WoD to Naxx anyway. It was, fundamentally, what would happen if you mind wiped Serenity and sent them back in time to do Naxx 40? And the answer to that question should be pretty obvious to anyone that understands top guilds today; assuming they had the same time to prepare as everyone else did, they would crush Naxx 40 at ridiculous speeds. Probably in less than 24 hours.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    If you go by this mindset and aplly all rules of WoD to Nax = they needed the best gear possible =:

    they would need 7-8 tanks with full t18 that is titanforged, because this is the best gear, have fun to farm that with all the split runs you want lol

    pro tipp if you use math on this the ammount of dropping and farming these = lel
    Except you didn't need 7-8 tanks to do four horsemen you could do it with 6.

    That comparison also doesn't work, as you could have a good 6 tanks with more than respectable gear PRIOR to Naxx 40 even coming out by doing split runs for the past 18 months that this hypothetical scenario where today's modern raiding environment would take place.

    Again, I'm under the assumption that this instance would be the last one released in an expansion cycle, to which today's modern raiding environment would be more than prepared for.

    The only boss in there where you would need that many tanks for is the four horsemen, and you certainly didn't need them all decked out in Naxx 40 gear to kill the boss. Given that people are better today than they were in the past, and given how people prepare and gear these days, I have no doubt that the major "cock block" that most in this thread are alluding to in the four horsemen wouldn't really be as much of a block as people like to think.

    Realistically the only major block in the instance would be Sapphiron, and given that runes could be bought/traded that could easily be worked around. In the event there is a major hurdle people would just be far more liberal in using Felwood flowers, Ony, ZG and Warlord's Command buffs earlier in the instance.

    I hope people realize that Kel'Thuzad numbers wise was far more difficult than anything else in the instance, if it wasn't for world buffs (which buffed people LEGIONS more than any gear in Naxx would have) the boss would have been remembered as such. I just don't think people realize the progressive arms race in attitude towards raiding has evolved over the years. Just like my example of how it was unheard of to have an entire raid flasked for a boss wasn't common, it also wasn't common for people to save quest drops to get world buffs back then. With those tools available in a hypothetical Naxx release, you can be rest assured people would abuse the shit out of them far earlier than Loatheb, Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad.

    My whole reasoning as to why it would take less time is that the very arms race I highlighted at has progressively ramped up since Naxx. You have people raiding more, people made mods to aid in encounters at record paces, and people prepare their raids to gear prior and the week something comes out at record pace. Just look at a guild who cleared HFC Heroic week ones iLvL going into Mythic HFC compared to the top of the tops average iLvL going into Mythic HFC in week 1? The difference ranges anywhere from half a tier to nearly a full tier higher, which is incredible. Doesn't matter if bosses dropped 2-3 pieces of loot in Naxx (end bosses dropping 4) or any other instance in Vanilla, people of today's modern raiding environment (at least at the top) would still acquire loot far faster than what guilds who did Naxx 11 years ago did.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    You can do that.

    People generally didn't do split runs in Vanilla. It would stand to reason that if you took current days model of raiding and applied it to the whole of Vanilla, these guilds would have legions of geared characters through the entire development cycle and eventual launch of Naxxaramas. You know what one of the underlying criteria was for defeating four horsemen? Generally you wanted a lot of tanks with T2, and in some instances you would want to farm the stupid Hydra boss in Zul'Gurub for the trinket that essentially meant that your taunt couldn't miss. Four horsemen was difficult, but a lot of the underlying difficulty was because a missed taunt (miss chance being 8.6%, without any % hit IIRC) would basically cause a wipe.

    People didn't necessarily have to grind Naxx exclusively in order to progress through Naxx. Most of the progression and prep would take place before Naxx even came out. In this make believe hypothetical world that this question is being asked, it would be assumed that if a Naxx would be dropped today, raiders would be far more prepared for it than they would have been in the past. How many guilds did several split runs of AQ40 or BWL prior to Naxx coming out? Probably none. You're not taking into account how prepared people would be by today's standards.

    It also wasn't common for people to use world buffs (Onyxia, BRS, ZG or form Felwood flower groups) until late into Naxx. Could you do it without? Yeah, but most guilds would save as many of these as they possibly could until the end of the week for Loatheb, Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad. If guilds ran into problems early, you can be rest assured methods like this would be abused far earlier in the instance.

    Game is also much more open now, there really aren't as many true contenders for competition at the very top like there once was. Poaching and leaving guilds happened back then, and in the event there was gear checks that dozens of split runs couldn't overtake, you can be rest assured that people would hop around. I mean look at guilds taking mages who had the legendary staff from Firelands for spine in Cata?

    I think some of you are vastly underestimating how much people raid now compared to then. As painful as it was with 40 people, you could be rest assured that in this scenario of a Naxx dropping that guilds using today's mindset would have several or more alternate characters running through MC/BWL/AQ40 in preparation. It really doesn't matter if there is one difficulty to each instance, you could still do it.

    I hope some of you realize that the only DPS worth a damn in vanilla was rogues, warriors and mages. Rogues and warriors being bargain basement as far as getting raid worthy gear was concerned. Aside from weapons a lot of the best trinkets were from 5 man dungeons (hand of justice was essentially top tier the entire time, and the 2% crit trinket from a quest could hold up the entire time too) and in the case of warriors just random shit strung throughout every raid, some of the shit they would use was crafted. Basically gearing the only DPS that matters wasn't particularly difficult. Even if they were shitty pieces of armor you would still want to run with +5-10 weapon skill because of how glancing blows worked, with rogues being upwards of 70% of their damage coming from auto attacks. Didn't matter if another rogue in your group was decked out in AQ40 gear, if you were a rogue and you had +10 weapon skill you would dump truck their damage because they didn't know how to properly gear. Edgemaster handguards ring a bell to any warriors back in Vanilla?
    I kind of wish I could make sending Serenity back in time a reality. I'd love to the see the forums' reaction to their world first Kel'Thuzad with like 20 rogues lol. Class stacking!!!

  6. #146
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    Split farming nowadays is much easier than it would be back then. Gearing alts was nowhere near as easy, you didn't have easier difficulties to funnel some decent gear before attempting "the real thing". No free LFR loot, no guaranteed legendaries, just a couple of high end crafts which were horribly expensive. Even needing to farm Onyxia in order not to get one shotted by BWL mechanics. Not to mention that consumables were far more annoying to create, with elixir stacking, world buffs, Felwood consumables, Blasted Land consumables, Black Lotus being a rare spawn and only being able to create flasks in two places.

    Then there were the atunements, dousing, reputations, resistance gear. Hell, respecing to fill in the holes in your raid was nearly impossible, as hybrids were healers and warriors needed full bags of +defense gear. Obviously, top players would still do it, but it wouldn't be as trivial as it is now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheze View Post
    naxx wouldn't be that hard if you tuned at at a contemporary level and dropped today's players into it. I mean, we saw this in wrath; naxx was muuuuch easier than the raids they were designing fresh at that time (sarth 3D, malygos, ulduar.)
    They barely changed that place from 60, no wonder it was trivial with additional 20 levels of stats. It's like going to Highmaul with 740+ itemlevel, you steamroll that place. Not to mention it was dropping way more loot than the original Naxx and it was the first raid, meaning you could easily gear in dungeons instead of farming previous 2.5 tiers.

    There's nothing in naxx that's as mechanically complex as... any fight in HFC really (maybe thaddius just cause the positioning is tight) and raids are much more flexible w/r/t composition due to offspecs than they were in vanilla. If our mythic raid suddenly needed four tanks for some reason (i.e. horsemen), we have 4-5 people who play tank OS who could fill in a pinch.
    And you didn't have 5 people who could offtank back then, because you needed tier bonuses or decent tanking gear which wasn't that trivial to farm. Hell, respecing costs alone were prohibitive.

    can you imagine taking a group that was progressing toward the end of naxx40 (or for that matter, sunwell) and giving them mythic mannoroth to have a go at? It'd blow their goddamn minds
    It would do that mostly because they'd have to get used to four expansions worth of class and raiding changes. No shit they'd react like that, because things we expect nowadays were mechanically impossible nowadays. AOEing multiple deadly mobs in few seconds, several times throughout the entire fight? Gripping? Tank cooldowns which aren't on 30 minute timer? Healing which isn't single target/group limited?

    Edit: Hell, Dungeon Journal alone would be a massive change. Same with detailed ability tooltips, describing almost exactly what it does. People weren't morons, if they had it in text, they'd figure it out.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2016-07-27 at 12:05 PM.

  7. #147
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    i think it would be hard. not that hard, but still. i never played in vanilla but according to what i've read about it, the difficulty in naxx 40 was numbers and not mechanics. it otherwords, what we see as avoidable damage today would've been avoidable deaths back then. you just get 2 shot and 1 shot from most things. but i still think it'd be cleared within a week or 2 if it came out today.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Split farming nowadays is much easier than it would be back then. Gearing alts was nowhere near as easy, you didn't have easier difficulties to funnel some decent gear before attempting "the real thing". No free LFR loot, no guaranteed legendaries, just a couple of high end crafts which were horribly expensive. Even needing to farm Onyxia in order not to get one shotted by BWL mechanics. Not to mention that consumables were far more annoying to create, with elixir stacking, world buffs, Felwood consumables, Blasted Land consumables, Black Lotus being a rare spawn and only being able to create flasks in two places.

    Then there were the atunements, dousing, reputations, resistance gear. Hell, respecing to fill in the holes in your raid was nearly impossible, as hybrids were healers and warriors needed full bags of +defense gear. Obviously, top players would still do it, but it wouldn't be as trivial as it is now. They barely changed that place from 60, no wonder it was trivial with additional 20 levels of stats. It's like going to Highmaul with 740+ itemlevel, you steamroll that place. Not to mention it was dropping way more loot than the original Naxx and it was the first raid, meaning you could easily gear in dungeons instead of farming previous 2.5 tiers.

    And you didn't have 5 people who could offtank back then, because you needed tier bonuses or decent tanking gear which wasn't that trivial to farm. Hell, respecing costs alone were prohibitive.

    It would do that mostly because they'd have to get used to three expansions worth of class and raiding changes. No shit they'd react like that, because things we expect nowadays were mechanically impossible nowadays.
    Even if you re-tuned mythic Mannoroth to not explicitly require the things we use today on him, but just kept the overall mechanics and tuning the same, (using programs like simcraft to figure out max theoretical dps) and released him as a stand alone raid the day Naxx was released, he would not have been killed at all in Vanilla, and probably not even till people were rocking full BiS from T6. I think if you just look at the recordings of the world firsts from Vanilla and BC, (the ones that aren't in 240p...) and compare them to the world firsts from WoD, it's self evident that even those top end raiders had no goddamn clue how to play the game compared to the top raiders of today.

    Keep in mind also that you could delete all of Serenity's addons and they'd just make their own to replace all the important shit, because they have people that know how to do that shit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    I have clue, maybe you dont








    It doenst matter if it 6 tanks or 18 months. its staticly impossible to have 6 full geared thx with warforged too. And also other bosses needed full decked out healers too. Also it doesnt matter how "smart" people are gotten in a opinion when the state of the matter is tuning, it doesnst matter how you good you playing when the auto attack hits like a truck


    but whatever, cake walk yo

    bye
    If Naxx required the equivalent of full titanforged on 8 players it would not have been cleared in Vanilla. Period. Even if you had robots from the future playing 24 hours a day.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    But it is not about naxx back then its about naxx right now :shurg: and its a fact that if you "transfer" over naxx design in wod you must also of course tune the numbers that way
    That doesn't make any sense. My argument is that Naxx was never tuned to be hard, people just sucked and their lack of skill made it harder than was necessary. I don't think Naxx 40 was tuned to be as hard as heroic HFC pre valor upgrade. With programs like simcraft and third party sites like WCL, the information needed to play the game proliferates at an insane rate compared to back in Vanilla when these tools hadn't been created yet because players didn't have 10+ years of experience.

    I bet with modern addons, (that could have been made back then) and simcraft, if a top player played on a Vanilla private server, said top player could achieve much higher dps/hps than what top players of that time did.

  10. #150
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    You wouldn't need full T18 Warforged tanks. I just don't know where you're getting these numbers from. If you're basing it off of old Naxxaramas you didn't even need those tanks to have the best of the best for that instance either.

    I hope you realize the stat differential between tiers was incredibly small, and with how gear and crit/hit ratings work that in a lot of cases old gear from 2-3 raids prior would statistically be better from a numbers standpoint. There is a reason they went from flat combat percentages in vanilla to combat ratings in TBC and beyond. Why? Because the power increase between tiers was incredibly fucking small, to the point where warriors (of the DPS variety) were literally running around with crafted gear, level 37 BoE epic gloves and shit from fucking molten core in Naxx. In some ways it was good because it made all content semi relevant for the entire tier (shamans MC set with down ranked healing wave for instance) so that was an added plus. In other ways it made a lot of gear useless, because you had people using things like hand of justice mid 50s blue trinket from BRD and the 2% crit trinket from a quest reward into Naxx because with how their item budgets worked, they wouldn't put 3% crit or 3% hit on a single item.

    My damage on my rogue was literally 70% auto attack damage, and the pinnacle of playing my class properly was having enough of a brain to realize that +10 weapon skill trounced any epic that would take up any other slot, and a very simply combat rotation of keeping SnD up and rarely using eviscerate. Woo. Oh and I guess using vanish the split second you're about to pull aggro.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    So let me get this straight for you:

    In vanilla in active combat, the you had always like 1-3 skills, and things like tanks only pressing sunder and a rage dumb because it was the most EFFECTIVE and BEST way . So tell me how brillant people are you would change this if you play back then? are you gonna magicly appear and change class design? So the shit you statings is bullshit. Also you also said there were almost no mechanics. So most of the dmg came through normal attacks and spells. So if being a super player dont mean you can alter space and time you have still 1-3 skills you must press, with dmg unavoidable. And im not counting like thinks like threat managment or going out of mana at all.


    So how is skill is effective anything of these?


    yeah ok maybe you should try to make sense

    - - - Updated - - -




    Now you going just on a shit show. You can not pull aspects that you want from the old design and misch mash them with the new. We transfer the old raid from back then into WoD, not the gear from Vanilla wow in WoD. So you have more then 100 Ilvl in a expansion, and also huge more ammount between tiers, wod for you
    You realize the original post says nothing about this Naxx dropping only a couple items right? Which means more tier would drop and the whole splits would still work? It doesn't matter how 'gear' gated the instance is, people are better at the game, more resourceful and are better at deconstructing encounters than they were 11 years ago.

    Almost all of the 'wall' in the instance was four horsemen from a tanking stand point, and the only difficulty on that encounter would be missed taunts? Regardless of how you spin it, if you threw Naxx 40 into today's WoD raiding environment, it's highly doubtful they would superimpose something ridiculous to artificially inflate the difficulty by the ability of your tanks spells to hit or miss.

    I'm sure the really resourceful guilds would have no problems getting the frost runes they need by week two to defeat Sapphiron either, especially considering it would certainly be feasible to split run a number of the bosses at the very least. Also, while it locked you to the instance it was certainly possible on Rogues to stealth around and get a couple of the frozen runes on the hall, which I'm sure said guilds would probably do.

  12. #152
    It's absurd to say that Naxxramas 80 wasn't grossly undertuned. Faerlina's aoe volleys did almost the same damage at 60 and 80 when people had 4000 HP (if that) at 60 and 20,000 at 80.

    DPS wise here's an example. Let's take a very geared guild that could comfortably beat Patchwerk's enrage at 60, killing him in six minutes when the berserk is 7. 4.2 million hp, 360 seconds, 11666 raid dps.

    Looking at old screenshots of mine, early in Wrath people were doing around 2,500/4,000 DPS on Patchwerk, or 60k raid dps in this case.

    Factoring out tanks for the moment, with 26 dps in your 40-man patchwerk raid and 16 dps in your 25-man raid your dps are doing about 10 times as much damage at 80 as 60.

    Kel'Thuzad in his last phase at 80 has 5.84 million Hp. Kel'Thuzad in his last phase at 60 had 1.75 million Hp.

    To be tuned the same as 60 Kel"Thuzad 80 should have 17.5 million Hp in his last phase, and that's not even taking into account that due to the tank being mind controlled you had to full stop dps with chains coming.

    That's like doing the boss with a 66% health reduction.

  13. #153
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    @Tojara

    You forgot that "MC gear/boe gloves" had +weapon skill, which was one of best damage stats, yet available on mere handful of items. This doesn't happen nowadays and crazy trinkets/set bonuses get heavily nerfed when next tier arrives, so they're not superior to new stuff. Not to mention tiers having +resistance on it, instead of being min-maxed like nowadays. No wonder some blue pieces were awesome when compared to trash like that. Itemization was crazy, spell hit trinket from ZG for warrior tanks taunting. Farming Onyxia to not get instantly killed by her big brother. Maraudon for nature resistance.

    It's one of reasons why it's hard to compare Naxx to modern instances. Things were very different back then and got changed for a good reason. Any comparison is flawed because it mixes the elements of both designs, adjusting them as needed to "win" the argument. And mentioning Naxx 2.0 anywhere can be easily disregarded. It was delibateraly created as entry level raid, with nearly zero gear requirements (not that it was possible, being the first tier). Dungeons offered loot of comparable quality to 10 man version, so you never had to farm anything serious in preparation.

    Yes, modern mythic is more difficult, no doubt. No, it wasn't a trivial raid that would be steamrolled by everyone. Tops guilds would probably do well. Other... maybe, who knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's absurd to say that Naxxramas 80 wasn't grossly undertuned(...)
    I remember farming spiders for anti-venom potions or whatever they were called, for a little extra on Faerlina (no easy mode totem for Alliance ). Simple boss, but she could still kill you, unlike her level 80 version. Hell, original Anub would slaughter you if you stood in his AOE for more than split second. If tanks were too slow with kiting, they died. At 80, there was a very generous room for error. First boss in the instance.

    Or if we go for another "first boss" - Mind Control breaking could result in a wipe from boss repositioning and using his shout on entire raid. Or priest getting his face smashed in by an angry add, who conveniently happened to resist a taunt. Both mechanics were removed in 3.0.
    Last edited by KaPe; 2016-07-27 at 12:44 PM.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Berkhtar View Post
    Guilds do not have 40 people today. Guilds are not used to get only 3 items per kill for 40 people. Guilds are not used to be gear checked.

    Guilds are not used to guild breaker bosses... 4 horsemen... guilds are not used to lose their maintanks because only a few hight end guilds have the needed roster.

    So no...it would takes months...as it took months when is was current content.
    I think this is the truest reply to this thread i have read so far!

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    @Tojara

    You forgot that "MC gear/boe gloves" had +weapon skill, which was one of best damage stats, yet available on mere handful of items. This doesn't happen nowadays and crazy trinkets/set bonuses get heavily nerfed when next tier arrives, so they're not superior to new stuff. Not to mention tiers having +resistance on it, instead of being min-maxed like nowadays. No wonder some blue pieces were awesome when compared to trash like that. Itemization was crazy, spell hit trinket from ZG for warrior tanks taunting. Farming Onyxia to not get instantly killed by her big brother. Maraudon for nature resistance.

    It's one of reasons why it's hard to compare Naxx to modern instances. Things were very different back then and got changed for a good reason. Any comparison is flawed because it mixes the elements of both designs, adjusting them as needed to "win" the argument. And mentioning Naxx 2.0 anywhere can be easily disregarded. It was delibateraly created as entry level raid, with nearly zero gear requirements (not that it was possible, being the first tier). Dungeons offered loot of comparable quality to 10 man version, so you never had to farm anything serious in preparation.

    Yes, modern mythic is more difficult, no doubt. No, it wasn't a trivial raid that would be steamrolled by everyone. Tops guilds would probably do well. Other... maybe, who knows.
    Yeah +weapon skill was only on a handful of items, but some of them were fairly easily obtainable. The BoE mail gloves for warriors were pretty easy to get early, on account that most people had no idea how strong +weapon skill was. Rogues also had access to a few +dagger skill blues in Diremaul as well.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    So let me get this straight for you:

    In vanilla in active combat, the you had always like 1-3 skills, and things like tanks only pressing sunder and a rage dumb because it was the most EFFECTIVE and BEST way . So tell me how brillant people are you would change this if you play back then? are you gonna magicly appear and change class design? So the shit you statings is bullshit. Also you also said there were almost no mechanics. So most of the dmg came through normal attacks and spells. So if being a super player dont mean you can alter space and time you have still 1-3 skills you must press, with dmg unavoidable. And im not counting like thinks like threat managment or going out of mana at all.


    So how is skill is effective anything of these?


    yeah ok maybe you should try to make sense

    - - - Updated - - -




    Now you going just on a shit show. You can not pull aspects that you want from the old design and misch mash them with the new. We transfer the old raid from back then into WoD, not the gear from Vanilla wow in WoD. So you have more then 100 Ilvl in a expansion, and also huge more ammount between tiers, wod for you
    You're the only one that's talking about converting your idealized version of Naxx 40 into a WoD raid that's tuned to be harder than mythic HFC.

    Also, Serenity totally does warp time and space. ^_^ I mean, have you seen their openers? But real talk, let me answer your question with another question. How is it that at 742+ ilvl in 6.2, some Arcane Mages would top out at 500k, while some would top out at 1.6 million, despite Arcane Mage only having two rotational buttons? If you actually understood the answer to that question, that's why Naxx 40 would be cleared in less than a day if we could somehow send Serenity back in time.

  17. #157
    The classes are so much stronger - and the mechanics so much more forgiving - today that Nax40 would've been trivially easy.

    For example, in response to the claim that 4H would still be a gear-based cockblock; you wouldn't need to gear up 8 tanks, because taunts can't miss anymore. So they wouldn't be.

    But if everything was rolled back to vanilla levels... then things would just happen exactly the same as they did back then. It'd take ages because people would need to gear their tanks. The fastest guilds would be the ones that were able to snipe the most geared tanks from other guilds.
    "Quack, quack, Mr. Bond."

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitros14 View Post
    It's absurd to say that Naxxramas 80 wasn't grossly undertuned. Faerlina's aoe volleys did almost the same damage at 60 and 80 when people had 4000 HP (if that) at 60 and 20,000 at 80.

    DPS wise here's an example. Let's take a very geared guild that could comfortably beat Patchwerk's enrage at 60, killing him in six minutes when the berserk is 7. 4.2 million hp, 360 seconds, 11666 raid dps.

    Looking at old screenshots of mine, early in Wrath people were doing around 2,500/4,000 DPS on Patchwerk, or 60k raid dps in this case.

    Factoring out tanks for the moment, with 26 dps in your 40-man patchwerk raid and 16 dps in your 25-man raid your dps are doing about 10 times as much damage at 80 as 60.

    Kel'Thuzad in his last phase at 80 has 5.84 million Hp. Kel'Thuzad in his last phase at 60 had 1.75 million Hp.

    To be tuned the same as 60 Kel"Thuzad 80 should have 17.5 million Hp in his last phase, and that's not even taking into account that due to the tank being mind controlled you had to full stop dps with chains coming.

    That's like doing the boss with a 66% health reduction.
    Pfft, 4,000 dps. I did 7k and I felt like a scrub. The best players with the best gear were hitting 11k. And then the Titan's Grip nerf happened.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobizzhere View Post
    I think this is the truest reply to this thread i have read so far!
    I just don't know in what world several hundred attempt bosses aren't considered guild breakers? Pretty much all the end tier bosses these days and in past expansions fit this category with the occasional boss throughout the instance hitting that category. I don't know how many it was, but I remember one of the guilds who killed Ragnaros second or third took over 600 attempts to kill him, and Heroic Ragnaros wasn't a short encounter by any means. People raid far more than they did back in Vanilla, the best guild on our server which killed Kel'Thuzad world 5th or something only raided like 4-5 days a week, for several hours a day. Compare that to what the guilds in top 5 raid these days? Especially during the first 2-3 weeks.

    A Naxx in today's raiding environment wouldn't drop 2-3 items per boss.

    Guilds do get gear checked. That's why they do so many split runs to get around it. Again, people don't realize how progressive the arms race in the raiding community has grown since vanilla. More hours, more days, more resourceful, and just better quality of players as well.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I just don't know in what world several hundred attempt bosses aren't considered guild breakers? Pretty much all the end tier bosses these days and in past expansions fit this category with the occasional boss throughout the instance hitting that category. I don't know how many it was, but I remember one of the guilds who killed Ragnaros second or third took over 600 attempts to kill him, and Heroic Ragnaros wasn't a short encounter by any means. People raid far more than they did back in Vanilla, the best guild on our server which killed Kel'Thuzad world 5th or something only raided like 4-5 days a week, for several hours a day. Compare that to what the guilds in top 5 raid these days? Especially during the first 2-3 weeks.

    A Naxx in today's raiding environment wouldn't drop 2-3 items per boss.

    Guilds do get gear checked. That's why they do so many split runs to get around it. Again, people don't realize how progressive the arms race in the raiding community has grown since vanilla. More hours, more days, more resourceful, and just better quality of players as well.
    Honestly, I think Paragon and Heroic Ragnaros forever altered the raiding scene. That was the first time when shit just got absurd. I remember an interview with some top player at the time, (I think it was a Blood Legion player) that said the amount of hours you needed to put into the game to be competitive in a world first environment had become staggeringly high. Once the Pandora's Box of split raiding had been opened it could not be shut.

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