Anduin - Son of the Wolf

[Zulkhan]

Well if you want to play that game then Thrall's still to blame for...
filling Garrosh's head with nonsense about his father and the old Horde.
for appointing Garrosh Warchief when every one of his friends and advisors told him it was a mistake.

Indeed, but Garrosh's actions before SoO are fairly unrelated with what he did later. Killing Garrosh would have prevented a lot of shitty things to happen, that's a fact. And the point is that, compared to other events, the trial could have been easily avoidable. We killed people on the spot for far less.

Now that would be fine narratively if Thrall was ever taken to task for his mistakes and misconceptions concerning his father and Grom. Or his appointment of Garrosh. Instead his "you chose your own path" line absolves himself of all responsibility.

Thrall is delusional, there's no doubt about that. He's the guy used to take responsibility of so many things that when he genuinely screws up he just can't cope with it. That's why he fell to Garrosh's teasing and had a tantrum when he ended up the "honorable duel" by electrocuting Garrosh. And it doesn't seem the elements took lightly how he apparently abused his pact with them because of his personal issues, at least that's what transpiring in Legion.

[Disreali]

Indeed, but Garrosh's actions before SoO are fairly unrelated with what he did later. Killing Garrosh would have prevented a lot of shitty things to happen, that's a fact. And the point is that, compared to other events, the trial could have been easily avoidable. We killed people on the spot for far less.

True, but Thrall appointing him Warchief in the first place (despite everyone with a lick of common sense Horde-side telling him it was a terrible idea) was what kicked off a lot of shitty things happening. Neither side even has to lay siege to Orgrimmar if Thrall picks someone more qualified than the rage monkey with daddy issues.
To the ending of SoO itself...Thrall remarks that he won't let Varian take Garrosh. Now I firmly believe that the Alliance had every right to take him, Thrall's "orc pride" be damned. It was orc pride that led to the whole mess to begin with.
That aside, I read the scene as Varian wanting to take Garry to stand trial in an Alliance court, and probably be executed by Alliance forces. Granted, that's entirely my own reading of the scene, and not based in anything in the Lore. I just don't see Varian as having the panda trial as his "plan A."
The Pandarin "trial by the worst judges EV-AR" was the middle ground to make everyone happy. Varian got to see Garrosh put on trial and Thrall didn't have to see the Horde's Warchief arrested by the Alliance in the Horde capital.

Thrall is delusional, there's no doubt about that. He's the guy used to take responsibility of so many things that when he genuinely screws up he just can't cope with it. That's why he fell to Garrosh's teasing and had a tantrum when he ended up the "honorable duel" by electrocuting Garrosh. And it doesn't seem the elements took lightly how he apparently abused his pact with them because of his personal issues, at least that's what transpiring in Legion.

Which is why it bugs me that he thought he was the only one who had the right to kill Garrosh. Thrall said Garry wasn't worthy of Grom's legacy. What he fails to realise is that Garrosh was worthy of his dad's legacy. And lived up to it pretty damn well. That Thrall is so blind to so much of orcish history is part of his problem.

And again, that isn't a bad thing in and of itself. A good character should have flaws, and have an arc. Thrall went from being a slave to humans with little to no knowledge of his people to being their saviour. And after learning his people's history? He naturally glorifies the best aspects of it in his own mind. That's not a bad thing from a character perspective. In fact it makes sense given where Thrall's character was at the time.
And low and behold, that glorification leads to mistakes. He fills Garry's head with the glories of his father, and causes Garry to embrace the worst aspects of orcish history, thinking they're the best aspects. Again, all fine. It's all natural character stuff.

The problem is that Thrall can never make it over that final hump. The hump where he goes "I romantacised my people's legacy, and it lead to horrible mistakes. I know now that our heroes weren't perfect, and we need to make amends while building off the positives for a better future."
That's the natural end-point for a heroic character like Thrall, but he can't get there. When the ugliness of orc history makes itself known in ways he can't rationalise away he locks up.
Like in War Crimes. He talks about how he wants to speak to Velen, but makes excuses for not doing so. Why? Velen, and the Draenei in general, are living reminders of orc brutality pre-demonic blood corruption. He can't speak to Velen, because any meaningful dialogue between the two would involve Thrall admitting even the noblest of orcs like his father did horrendous things, and he isn't able to deal with that.

[Deleted]

Oh and I forgot to add that I adore the new music. It suits young Menethil. It truly fits his hammer of Light.

[Menzolies]

I think its cool, the last page means the game continues on for a while yet

[Zulkhan]

To the ending of SoO itself...Thrall remarks that he won't let Varian take Garrosh. Now I firmly believe that the Alliance had every right to take him, Thrall's "orc pride" be damned. It was orc pride that led to the whole mess to begin with.

More than pride is the fact that Thrall is indeed scarred by his own experiences with humans, which are rather bipolar. He had the chance to see the best and worst of humanity and he just can't bear the idea of an orc put in chains by the humans. It's not entirely rational of course but is a logical response given his past.

Which is why it bugs me that he thought he was the only one who had the right to kill Garrosh. Thrall said Garry wasn't worthy of Grom's legacy. What he fails to realise is that Garrosh was worthy of his dad's legacy. And lived up to it pretty damn well. That Thrall is so blind to so much of orcish history is part of his problem.

No, Thrall is aware Grom was not all heroism and greatness. But he still values Grom's legacy because Grom's very last act granted the whole orcish race freedom from demonic corruption. Garrosh was leading that very people into a black hole, pretty much shitting on that legacy. He even abandoned Gorehowl down in the vaults of Pandaria to claim his new power. Rather symbolic to me.

But this aside, Thrall is not really delusional about the orcish figures of the past or his race's history, he's the very narrative voice of Rise of the Horde after all. He simply did a terrible job in sharing his views with Garrosh, he hasn't been able to deal with that depressed dude, the son of his "big brother", and hurt his feelings. He pretty much enlightened Grom as a hero to raise Garrosh's self-esteem, until that ego grew beyond Thrall's own expectations (especially when Garrosh became Warchief).

[Deleted]

I think its cool, the last page means the game continues on for a while yet

Yes, 60 more years of WoW inc

[Disreali]

More than pride is the fact that Thrall is indeed scarred by his own experiences with humans, which are rather bipolar. He had the chance to see the best and worst of humanity and he just can't bear the idea of an orc put in chains by the humans. It's not entirely rational of course but is a logical response given his past.

Sure, but context is everything. This orc, Garrosh, bombed a human city, almost murdered the Crown Prince of Stormwind, and made human mothers fight each other to spare their children for the amusement of orcs. If any orc deserved to be put in chains by humans it's Garrosh. If Thrall can't see that? He's displaying a complete lack of empathy for the people he supposedly wants a peaceful co-existence with.

No, Thrall is aware Grom was not all heroism and greatness. But he still values Grom's legacy because Grom's very last act granted the whole orcish race freedom from demonic corruption. Garrosh was leading that very people into a black hole, pretty much shitting on that legacy. He even abandoned Gorehowl down in the vaults of Pandaria to claim his new power. Rather symbolic to me.

But this aside, Thrall is not really delusional about the orcish figures of the past or his race's history, he's the very narrative voice of Rise of the Horde after all. He simply did a terrible job in sharing his views with Garrosh, he hasn't been able to deal with that depressed dude, the son of his "big brother", and hurt his feelings. He pretty much enlightened Grom as a hero to raise Garrosh's self-esteem, until that ego grew beyond Thrall's own expectations (especially when Garrosh became Warchief).

See, I'm not so sure. He claims he wants to talk to Velen in War Crimes and doesn't. He absolutely panics at the end of Rise of the Horde when his human spy informs him that the Draenei have joined the Alliance. He refuses to admit that his father played any sort of role in the pre-demonic corruption slaughter of the Draenei on Draenor in War Crimes.

To me it seems like Drek'thar was responsible for Thrall's outlook when it comes to orcish history. Drek'thar willingly followed Gul'dan and saw the disaster it led to, with the Legion abandoning the orcs when they failed to conquer Azeroth. All it did was leave them a broken, defeated, imprisoned people. So he meets Thrall, and of course he tells him that before the demonic corruption everything was fantastic. From Drek'thar's beaten down perspective? It makes sense.
Problem is it's not accurate. The orcs pre-demonic corruption were still warlike. They still slaughtered the Draenei. So this twisted version of the truth becomes Thrall's reference point, and he's just incapable of dealing with the Draenei because they're living reminders that his idea of orcish history isn't accurate.

[Erbel]

Thrall's mistake.
So thrall had every right to fix it

No. Stop making sense. Only my super special snowflake mary sue PC should be allowed to get the killing blow on every NPC ever. No lore character should EVER do that or even help me do that, else I'm not getting the wish fulfillment through a video game I sorely desire to make up for my shitty boring pathetic real life.

[Disreali]

No. Stop making sense. Only my super special snowflake mary sue PC should be allowed to get the killing blow on every NPC ever. No lore character should EVER do that or even help me do that, else I'm not getting the wish fulfillment through a video game I sorely desire to make up for my shitty boring pathetic real life.

Hehe. I've actually developed a background for my character, and special snowflake probably wouldn't be an appropriate description

Anyway I don't think I've ever argued that my PC should have killed Garrosh. And given that Zanjin's post you quoted was in response to something I said? I feel what I've argued is relevant.
No, my preferred means of ending Garry's life in order, starting with most preferable...

1) have Varian kill him for nearly killing his son
2) have Tyrande kill him for trying to drive her people out of their homeland
3) have the Alliance haul him off in chains, try him in an Alliance tribunal, and beheaded him
4) have everything play out leading to WoD, and have Yrel kill him for facilitating the war of genocide his dad was currently waging on her people