Totem Projection: "No path available!". Really Blizzard?

[Wyrt]

This is the shit that made me decide against shaman. Feral Lunge also has this "No Path Available" crap.

[woopytywoop]

The reason why TP is so bad is just because of possible "exploits" (shadowstep/wild charge)

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...51955975524352
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...54196832763904

The reasoning is that rogues can only step (LoS requirement) things that should not be there in the first place so that's why TP got a pathing requirement.

REsto druids mushroom isn't a target anymore and also doesn't have a pathing issue.

[Nebria]

The reason why TP is so bad is just because of possible "exploits" (shadowstep/wild charge)

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...51955975524352
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...54196832763904

The reasoning is that rogues can only step (LoS requirement) things that should not be there in the first place so that's why TP got a pathing requirement.

REsto druids mushroom isn't a target anymore and also doesn't have a pathing issue.

great finding but now that it effects a lot more totems they really should do a white list of skills that bypass that pathing limitation. I don't hink we can exploit anything with totems...

[Deleted]

Could you throw traps of cliffs? If it really was a different "teleport" system perhaps they really should take a look if this would be usable for the totems.
I hope it is not because the visual presentation doesn't match...

Yes, you could throw them pretty much everywhere. I've never once encountered a "path not found" issue when playing my hunter. Could throw them from the roof of the horde base in Warsong Gulch all the way down into the room with no issues.

Responding to your other post aswell. Good find. It shows that this is very much intentional and absolutely terrible. Rogues could shadow step to it, instead of fixing that they made it so totems are affected by the same mechanics as heroic leap/grappling hook are. What in the world.

TL/DR

TL/Still did read, wont bother responding in depth as we already entered your constant goalpost moving scheme. You were once again wrong, as usual you wont admit it nor relent. Eventually the argument will fizzle out, rinse and repeat in a year or two with the next issue.

seems not fixable for them.

Because this is an assertion of yours that needs anything whatsoever to back up. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." Then again, Woopy has brought fourth evidence that this is intentional to stop another issue from arising. When other changes would've been far more logical and reasonable and such mechanics exist. Mechanics you go out of your way to ignore because acknowledging them would make your position untenable.

[miffy23]

This is the very definition of "unfixable for them" for very specific reasons.
Tell me, what is my position exactly? You seem unable to comprehend what I'm actually talking about. I think I do remember now, you utterly missed the point last time around too.

One last time, then i'm outta here: i'm not talking about the mechanic being broken or clunky in itself. I'm talking about the attitude adopted based on this, baselessly asserting that it's thanks to bad or intentionally lazy decisions on the devs's side, and the tone involved. I'm sorry that you can't see that and are intent on constructing some mythical world where i'm attempting to defend the ability itself, which I have at no point done.

[Nebria]

One last time, then i'm outta here: i'm not talking about the mechanic being broken or clunky in itself. I'm talking about the attitude adopted based on this, baselessly asserting that it's thanks to bad or intentionally lazy decisions on the devs's side, and the tone involved. I'm sorry that you can't see that and are intent on constructing some mythical world where i'm attempting to defend the ability itself, which I have at no point done.

I think I got your point. Of curse naming them "lazy" is a bit harsh. Nobody of us is working inside their team and we don't know about discussions etc. about the pathing issue. The chance is high it wasn't an easy decision for them either, but with limited time and resources they had to find a way to deal with "misuse".
Sorry about them calling "lazy".

It is just sad that shamans have to deal with the pathing issue now because it effects more spells. Things that worked are now kind of broken in some situations.
Would be nice if they take a look into it and find another way to limit the "misuse" for some special spells instead of limiting all spells.

[Deleted]

This is the very definition of "unfixable for them" for very specific reasons.

Absolutely untrue. They could've easily fixed this in several other ways using existing mechanics or simply excluding totems from being shadowstepped to. You are going out of your way to ignore all of this.

Tell me, what is my position exactly? You seem unable to comprehend what I'm actually talking about. I think I do remember now, you utterly missed the point last time around too.

You do not have a point. That's the entire issue here. You are running entirely on false claims, assertions and ad hominem. Throughout the entire thread. Then when something such as this being a design decision surface where prior you called it a bug and pretended just waiting would fix it, you go and move the goalpost.

baselessly asserting that it's thanks to bad decisions

Baseless assertions = Constantly trying to argue based on feelings, with no basis, claiming things such as this being a "no other choice" scenario which is a false fallacy in itself. That's you, right there.
Not baseless assertions = Bringing this up, discussing it, someone finding tweets showing this was a genuine decision on their part and a HORRIBLE one that now with some spells being upgradeable into totems comes back to bite the players. This is not relative, it's an objectively bad decision. It might've been not THAT bad at that point, it very much is now. Which warrants change. Change which can easily happen and be done despite your claims that it's impossible.

It is just sad that shamans have to deal with the pathing issue now because it effects more spells. Things that worked are now kind of broken in some situations.
Would be nice if they take a look into it and find another way to limit the "misuse" for some special spells instead of limiting all spells.

It's not "sad", it's broken. It's broken and warrants change. Whatever their decision making process was it needs to be reevaluated and changed. They used shadowstep as an argument, instead of making it impossible to shadowstep to totems they decided to massively mess with the shaman class instead and enforce projection to work by the rules of heroic leap (being more restrictive).

Miffy is going for "problematic language" (which is a complete and utter joke) and "bad wording", because he has no other avenue of attack or criticism. He would've found something to try and disrupt and he would've dragged it out indefinitely. It ultimatively doesn't affect the topic at hand, it's outright derailing. Instead of discussing the broken mechanic here it forces us to discuss completely different things.

[Guinness]

TL/DR - please point to any post of mine where I "defend the current system". I'm merely pointing out that attributing personal failings to devs is a ridiculous position to take that does one's argument no favours whatsoever. When the opening thread title is "really Blizzard" right off the bat, it's already left the path of common sense.

I never debated that the mechanic is faulty in the slightest, you simply reflexively jump to the conclusion that I must be white knighting a game company simply because I don't agree that it's "horrible development" that there is a clunky mechanic that seems not fixable for them.

If you want to provide feedback directly for bugs, there's an ingame tool and an official forum for that as well as a twitter. This here is a discussion, and I was referencing the attitude towards devs being displayed once more, nothing less. If you want to discuss personal agendas for or against a company (wtf does that even mean), I suggest you review some of the wording you adopt to begin with.

You keep trivializing anyone speaking out about its issues. Then you simply say we are still in the "tuning" phase as if its a catch all term to say oh its a bug in prepatch, don't worry they'll fix it for live. This pathing issue will never be fixed because they don't deem it a bug. Moron.

[Murderdoll]

One last time, then i'm outta here: i'm not talking about the mechanic being broken or clunky in itself. I'm talking about the attitude adopted based on this, baselessly asserting that it's thanks to bad or intentionally lazy decisions on the devs's side, and the tone involved. I'm sorry that you can't see that and are intent on constructing some mythical world where i'm attempting to defend the ability itself, which I have at no point done.

If an issue has existed for numerous years. A widely talked about issue at that.

Is it not lazy to then copy paste that same system, that has has this same issue for years upon years, without fixing it and call it a day?

Of course it is. You have no ability to offer anything that is mildly critical of the development process or the offer anything mildly critical of the results.

In betas gone by you are the typical "Tuning is coming" "Wait for tuning" "tuning fixes everything" voice.

You have to be critical (that doesnt mean rude etc it means objectively critical) of something, for it to be changed.

[woopytywoop]

This is the very definition of "unfixable for them" for very specific reasons.
Tell me, what is my position exactly? You seem unable to comprehend what I'm actually talking about. I think I do remember now, you utterly missed the point last time around too.

One last time, then i'm outta here: i'm not talking about the mechanic being broken or clunky in itself. I'm talking about the attitude adopted based on this, baselessly asserting that it's thanks to bad or intentionally lazy decisions on the devs's side, and the tone involved. I'm sorry that you can't see that and are intent on constructing some mythical world where i'm attempting to defend the ability itself, which I have at no point done.

elemental fusion + control of lava?

I don't think any other spec has a pvp talent that makes a talent on the original tree worthless. This has been reported many times but never acknowledged.

About the totems, it has the advantage that you won't waste your totems now compared to old TP. I find it amusing to see a thread popping up about an annoyance I became used to like every TP user. The amount of cap totems i saw exploding behind me because "no path available"...

I just find it far from logical that they know totem use is broken in that regard and add another pathing mechanic to earthquake with a totem. I totally understand if someone would start to think that it's thanks to bad and intentionally lazy decisions on the devs's side.

A possible fix could be that rogues wouldn't be able to step totems and all buff totems (mainly pvp ones) are dropped at the shaman feet. But this might be too much coding work for something they don't think is as broken as we think it is.

[Stormspark]

Shamans aren't the only class that have this problem though.

Why didn't the warrior cross the road? Because there was no path available.

[gambit998]

The points are moot.... why are they not basing the coding of the totems off of the Rain of fire AOE? I have never had a targeting issue even when it was channeled waaaaaaay back.

[Nebria]

The points are moot.... why are they not basing the coding of the totems off of the Rain of fire AOE? I have never had a targeting issue even when it was channeled waaaaaaay back.

I guess a zone spell has nothing to do with a projection/teleport spell.
I guess totem projection still works internally as drop totem to the feet and then move it to the target location. same you have with warriors jump. it moves you to the target location and it needs a path to it.
it is different from teleport like blink that stops when you hit something. this is why blink is interrupted by a stone but still allows you to blink, you just can't pass it.
I bet the same stone would give you a path not available message when you want to place a totem behind it.
after reading the tweets again I think it is intended to prevent exploits by placing totems on places where they shouldn't be.
to an improvement of the path detection might be the best to help us.

[Deleted]

Shamans aren't the only class that have this problem though.

Why didn't the warrior cross the road? Because there was no path available.

No but it's worse in case of shamans. Because as you can see in the first post. It affects SPELLS. I can frog you from the bridge, I can't frog you if I upgrade it to an AoE spell. An upgrade that is breaking spells and making them worse in many PvP situations is not an upgrade. They shouldn't have emulated that mechanic, instead taking the trap mechanic and making it impossible to shadowstep to totems instead.

[coprax]

The reason why TP is so bad is just because of possible "exploits" (shadowstep/wild charge)

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...51955975524352
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...54196832763904

The reasoning is that rogues can only step (LoS requirement) things that should not be there in the first place so that's why TP got a pathing requirement.

You can shadowstep with totems as your target? Are you sure?

[Emophia]

Yeah I've been noticing this a shit tone with outlaw's grappling hook too, can't even use it going uphill.

[Nebria]

You can shadowstep with totems as your target? Are you sure?

if you can this would be the reason.

you could project totems onto terrain you can't reach normally and with shadow step you could teleport to that place. and they don't want this because you could exploit different things.

OR

the totem you project can get aggro from something you couldn't attack in the first place allowing you to pull mobs you normally couldn't

[woopytywoop]

You can shadowstep with totems as your target? Are you sure?

yes since always, both friendly and hostile totems.

resto druids mushrooms once also had a target which also could be feral charged/stepped and that also got a pathing requirement in 5.4. However since prepatch you can't target the mushroom anymore and with that they also changed the pathing requirement to a LoS requirement.

Blizzard is well aware of the annoyances and they can fix them for resto druid but not for shaman. On the contrary, they add this mechanic to EQ...

[Lothrik]

I don't really understand the thought process behind gimping one class mechanically because another class can exploit it.

Why not just fix the exploit by making totems an invalid Shadowstep target?

[Deleted]

I don't really understand the thought process behind gimping one class mechanically because another class can exploit it.

Why not just fix the exploit by making totems an invalid Shadowstep target?

Likely? It's easier and quicker to do with less headache involved for them. Afterall back then projection was a relatively new talent they weren't even sure was going to be picked a whole lot and would stay around.