[Shadow] Mythic Dungeons

[pkusa]

I know we'll end up being pretty terrible for Mythic Dungeons, what will end up being the best talents for pushing them?

[Saiyoran]

I know we'll end up being pretty terrible for Mythic Dungeons, what will end up being the best talents for pushing them?

Shadow Crash is pretty much mandatory, Legacy of the Void is probably your best bet since Surrender to Madness is pretty much worthless for them. Outside of that its pretty standard setup. I've had some success with Shadow Word: Void since it allows you to get into Voidform very quickly, but you'll probably just end up running Twist of Fate like everywhere else.

The best thing you can do to maximize performance as Shadow in Mythic+ is getting trinkets. The "proc aoe damage" trinkets from a lot of dungeons are your saving grace, sometimes accounting for multiple millions of damage per trash pull, and they're RPPM which is nice since we stack Haste. Caged Horror and Corrupted Starlight are the ones I've been running with.

[Kainslife]

Here is a SPriest doing Mythic in Legion, they do pretty well:



With that said it seems SPriests are more about high single target DPS.

This is the Spriest I've been watching. I hope more people check him out instead of spreading misinformation that Spriest has no place in Mythic+.

[Deleted]

This is the Spriest I've been watching. I hope more people check him out instead of spreading misinformation that Spriest has no place in Mythic+.

No that much of a surprise there - working your ass off fighting 3-5 long lived mobs yields in very good damage. Burst sucks and while the bosses in this video lived long enough to recover somewhat, this might not always be the case with better gear.
And proper AoE with lots of lesser mobs is atrocious - and although it seemed he kind of gave up in that gauntlet (or was distracted) ending up behind the healer is not where you want to be.

Of course without knowing the gear and skill levels of the people involved, it's hard to draw conclusions.

[Kainslife]

No that much of a surprise there - working your ass off fighting 3-5 long lived mobs yields in very good damage. Burst sucks and while the bosses in this video lived long enough to recover somewhat, this might not always be the case with better gear.
And proper AoE with lots of lesser mobs is atrocious - and although it seemed he kind of gave up in that gauntlet (or was distracted) ending up behind the healer is not where you want to be.

Of course without knowing the gear and skill levels of the people involved, it's hard to draw conclusions.

This might true in raids but better gear in Mythic+ dungeons just means you're doing a harder keystone difficulty. The relative difficulty should always stay the same.

[Doomislav]

Shadow Priests do very well though, in most situations. You cannot expect to be good in every encounter. Everyone would just play that class then.

Here is a parse I just took...

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports.../#type=summary

I am Empathy on that log... but look at the #1 and #2...

Here is my DPS meter:



This is on Archimonde.

Quick, hide that post before a developer sees it!

[Biomega]

This is on Archimonde.

And you are linking a raid log in a dungeon discussion to prove what exactly?

No one is disputing SPs do well in raids. The question is, how well do they do in a 5-man where you can't rely on 2 minutes of StM to catapult your numbers to infinity and beyond.

[Deleted]

This might true in raids but better gear in Mythic+ dungeons just means you're doing a harder keystone difficulty. The relative difficulty should always stay the same.

That does not necessarily mean that the fight length or the number of mobs will stay constant. It really depends on how they are scaling and also on what tactics are viable and which suffixes are present. For instance teeming would probably require more AoE damage or it may be necessary to pull 2 groups on harder levels to still make the time.

[Deleted]

Priests may suffer from mobs dying too fast, because they are dependent on DoTS to do dmg. But on the other side DoTS do much more dmg than they did before and being able to apply them to multiple mobs allow us to shine. Right now considering pulling packs one by one, and them surviving at least 20 seconds, priests are performing really well. And applying DoTs will remain good source of dmg even if you decide to pull two or three packs, so I would not worry about AoE.

Mobs would have to die really quickly in order to priest become "terrible". And we are talking about mythic difficulty so the mobs should have adequate health pool. I think that priests will be at least "okay" for mythics, and there is still a decent chance to be "very good"

[Deleted]

Shadow Priests do very well though, in most situations. You cannot expect to be good in every encounter.

Unless you're a Mage.

From what ive seen outside StM fire mages are onpar/ better than SP single target and on AoE one of the best. They have living bomb, ignite naturally spreads, AF has flamestrike drops a 2nd flamestrike, ignites have a chance to flare up doing additional aoe, meteor, dragons breath for AoE, vs shadow that has to dot everything but can only sustain 3-4 dots or so in voidform.

In current mythics and stuff Ive had no trouble keeping up in AoE granted this is with ppl in similar gear levels (707) and on bosses im generally top but this is against people with unknown skill levels so not a good metric, but it doesnt seem THAT bad just require more effort to get half the result of say mages who just whack 3 bottons and the pack is ablaze.

Simple changes that would probably fix most dungeon woes, replace Legacy of the void since its possibly the most pointless talent in the tree and replace it with or a weaker version of edge of insanity that way we can sit on 100insanity get a bit of a damage buff and actually focus on keeping dots rolling on everything instead of having to focus on 3 and letting ones outside that drop off.

And uncouple Sear from flay. As much as I hate sear just make it so it only generate insanity on 3+ targets or have it do lower initial damage than flay but every unique target hit scales up its damage (to a cap if needs be) so single target its pointless cast compared to MF but on 3+ its the go too and isnt bound by flays damage.

[Deja Thoris]

Shadow Priests do very well though, in most situations. You cannot expect to be good in every encounter. Everyone would just play that class then.

Here is a parse I just took...

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports.../#type=summary

I am Empathy on that log... but look at the #1 and #2...

Here is my DPS meter:



This is on Archimonde.

Whats the point of even linking this?

In a mythic dungeon more than half of your time will be spent trying to dot up mobs that other classes will obliterate. This isn't a question of how SP's do in raids but in dungeons.

[Salim]

This is the Spriest I've been watching. I hope more people check him out instead of spreading misinformation that Spriest has no place in Mythic+.

You know he is 870 and nearly has a maxed out artifact weapon correct? It is viable yes. Is it a #1 choice to farm 3+ chests for everything up until two affixes? I'd say few classes if available you wouldn't take those over shadow. We do have a place and is entirely to kill bosses and let the two melee classes you bring kill trash.

Beating a timer is literally not dying knowing the techniques of the dungeon. Farming 3+ chests require classes that excel at the old CM skill set which shadow currently doesn't offer much.

Best bet in higher dungeons is to get Tyrannical/X and play S2M for first/last boss since LOTV doesn't add much currently (100k per x2 dotted add??.)

[Deleted]

Can a Mage get offheal? Can they bubble? Can they save a group from wiping?

Nope, they have time warp though. Iceblock. Yes.

Every class/spec brings something to the group outside of DPS - however DPS still is the primary purpose and if you suck there none of the current utility things will get you into groups.

In dungeons, multidoting works well. There are videos of Sprists doing well in mythic dungeons on beta with the artifact weapon.

"Doing well" is hard to judge from those videos, because we usually don't know about the groups skill and gear levels.

But like I and many others have said; you can't expect to be excellent in every situation. Spriests are not pure DPS classes we are hybrids, we can heal. So comparing them to Mages and Warlocks is a bit disingenuous. And even than I manage to do more damage than them on bosses in dungeons. And if I'm lucky on trash pulls with multidoting.

A shadow priest is a DPS spec and as such it needs to be competitive with other DPS specs. You *have to* compare them to mages and warlocks, because they will take a DPS slot, not a non existent "his DPS sucks but he can cast 5 shadow mends" slot.

Whether damage (in dungeons) will work out or not is something we'll have to see. However I've been playing shadow since 2007 and had to go disc for MoP CM Gold and gave up on WoD CM as shadow, so I'm not really thrilled to know that we still lack burst and AoE...

I'm sorry but I'm not buying into this viable in dungeons without burst and AoE thing just yet. Maybe I'm wrong but my experience with Blizzard so far has taught me to be cautious with those claims.

[Deja Thoris]

Spriests are not pure DPS classes we are hybrids, we can heal. So comparing them to Mages and Warlocks is a bit disingenuous. And even than I manage to do more damage than them on bosses in dungeons. And if I'm lucky on trash pulls with multidoting.

Dps spec is dps spec. In fact, if anything shadow priest should be better tooled to deal with a variety of dps situations since we can't spec 3 different specs if one is working out badly for the situation at hand. And lets face it, people are going to spend a lot of time in mythic dungeons because its virtually *mandatory* to gear up for raids.

So far you've said they are "ok" and then posted an archi log to prove it. I've also watched one of the worlds best SP's in mythic+ dungeons and it was appalling. It wasn't good or below par, it was simply awful.

[Kainslife]

Beating a timer is literally not dying knowing the techniques of the dungeon. Farming 3+ chests require classes that excel at the old CM skill set which shadow currently doesn't offer much.

You don't farm Mythic+ dungeons. They're an endgame analogue for those of us who don't raid. You get your keystone and you keep leveling it for the week until you hit your group's natural cap and then you get your lockouts at that cap. If you're intentionally doing lower difficulty to farm gear or whatever then that's on you - that's not a shortcoming of Mythic+ or class design.

WoW should never cater to players who are going to poopsock the content.

[Deleted]

If you guys think the grass is greener on the Warlock/Mage side play those. I and many others will enjoy the SPriest.

If some are doing well, and others are not, it's not the spec.

Im not, and dont think anyone else is saying we dont enjoy shadow. But we want to be able to enjoy it and not be a hinderance.

They whole hybrid thing hasn't been a thing since WotLK/Cata at most and if thats the argument why did mages in WoD have healing boost and why do they still have timewarp?

As people have said DPS spec is a DPS the only hybrid part these days is (in the case of shaman, monks atleast) is they have to stop and cast a heal that costs resources cos they have a healing spec with a heal. Where as so called "Pures" get most of their heals (which they shouldn't even have period) passively.

Again noone is asking for SP to be rocking AoE meters but there are plenty of ways blizz can tool things to make us more competitive. like retooling our 100 talent from DPS neutral/loss (LotV) DPS loss (MSp) raid only DPS explosion (StM) to better single target, better AoE, DPS explosion.

[Tunng]

I think this whole discussion is just silly, tuning will continue, things will change, but what's the point in talking about shadow priests sucking when they don't? It's been a difficult spec for people to grapple with for a while now, even before legion changes and people have felt the same way about it. It isn't as bad as you probably think it is, as a matter of fact, it's not bad at all.

[Kohz]

Shadow Crash is pretty much mandatory, Legacy of the Void is probably your best bet since Surrender to Madness is pretty much worthless for them. Outside of that its pretty standard setup. I've had some success with Shadow Word: Void since it allows you to get into Voidform very quickly, but you'll probably just end up running Twist of Fate like everywhere else.

The best thing you can do to maximize performance as Shadow in Mythic+ is getting trinkets. The "proc aoe damage" trinkets from a lot of dungeons are your saving grace, sometimes accounting for multiple millions of damage per trash pull, and they're RPPM which is nice since we stack Haste. Caged Horror and Corrupted Starlight are the ones I've been running with.

Surrender to Madness is the way to go for Mythic dungeons. I pulled 280kdps as 816 ilvl on Mythic 5 Neltharion's Lair Last boss. My spriest guildie who is 850 ilvl pulled 530k on the last boss (with lust).

As long as you know when to use StM and when to disperse, you are golden. You can usually use twice per dungeon and it's crucial on the boss damage for mythic 5+ dungeons.l

[Deleted]

The thing is, if you are going to compare DPS, you should probably do it with Shaman/Druid caster DPS. In this expansion Blizzard is moving away from the "bring the player" philosophy... they are making it a bit more "old school" more like BC.

I don't think that's true - they didn't say so and if that was the case shadow wouldn't be allowed to do so well in raids.

The start of the expansion is usually pretty bad for us till we get geared.
Remember this meme?:

yep
Although shadows did start fairly strong in TBC (at least if you were a tailor with the shadoweave set) and turned into debuffers and mana batteries later.

[Deleted]

So I've been wondering lately if I should stay with my shadow priest in Legion as it was my main for most of my time in the game. I've done a little analysis based on J Innk's Mythic +9 The Arcway run and thought I'd share the results*.

The whole run takes them 39:04 (of 45:00 limit) and of that they spend 8:19 fighting bosses (roughly 21% of the time). Rest is movement and fighting trash. Yes, we top the damage meter on last two bosses, but we barely outdps the tank for 78% of the time in the dungeon.

Obviously it's doable as they finished the run. But is it enjoyable? Well that's highly subjective. But don't kid yourself - your PW:S and Shadow Mend don't save the day and your group would be better off if you were playing a class that doesn't have a long ramp up period, anemic AoE and fragile execute phase.
BTW mentioning hybrid tax when Legion is about to go live sounds like a bad case of Stockholm syndrome.


*The whole analysis is on imgur under /a/iKZaS (sorry, can't post images yet).