Migration is 'poison' for Europe, says Hungary PM

[nextormento]

Aiding in handling the refugee crisis is part of that partnership now.

The refugee crisis was Hungary and Greece getting their migrant infrastructure flooded. Hungary was the one in need of help in managing the crisis, not the other way around. EU failed to properly fund those outer members states, and you folks keep bitching about cutting their funding.
Your "all or nothing" rhetoric is still objectively -and hilariously- wrong.

We have very little legislation around a comprehensive CEAS. We might, some day; so long as we don't, Hungary can keep rejecting plenty of things, free of any absurd and empty threat like yours.
And they can keep wailing about "poison" or w/e. Because anything related to refugees is mostly for domestic consumption in their political arena: some imbeciles selling the idea of being humanitarian at all costs -while agreeing on hot transfers back to Turkey-, and some other idiots playing as "me strong, bring crusades nao".

[Deleted]

Look at Germany and France, already bombarded by terrorist attacks.

For France, the recent big attacks were all committed by regular citizens and permanent reisdents who had lived there for a long time, not refugees. So i would argue that the problem runs a lot deeper than just "refugee = imported terror".

For Germany, the body count for the recent attacks is:
Refugees:
- 4 people wounded, perpetrator dead in the case of the afghan kid who went crazy with an axe after his best friend was killed back home. apparently joined ISIS shortly before the attack, his foster family said he never cared much about religion.
- 1 dead in the case of the guy who killed his coworker and apparently lover with a machete. Police says it's a crime of passion.
- 15 injured, perpetrator dead in the case of the guy who blew himself up near a festival. He claimed allegiance to ISIS.
- there is also some case where a refugee allegedly raped an old woman at a cemetary but that one's apparently still being investigated and it's the police's job to find out if it happened.

Now, on the other end of the spectrum aka right-wing extremism we have:
-8 dead victims + 1 dead perpetrator when that german-iranian kid who apparently hated arabs and turks because they bullied him, admired Breivik and was proud of being born on the same day as Hitler picked up a gun and started hunting "brown peopl" (all his victims were immigrants).

Oh, and we also have seen the number of arsons and assaults with racist motives sky-rocketing since the whole refugee crisis started.
I am not sure if people are scared of the right minority, atleast in terms of effectiveness, the Nazis seem to have the upper hand.

It also seems like ISIS loves to claim responsibility for everything that ever goes wrong, even though they only are actually responsible half of the time. The motives for those crimes are more diverse and some of them are in no way specific to religion/culture/residency status.

[May90]

They're receiving funding as strategic investment. In parallel, they commit to many things.
The refugees are not such a thing (much less so migration from non-EU members). There is no binding framing to accept the EU plans on refugees. Once and if we write and enforce such framing, Hungary will have a say (which is essentially what she's doing: exposing her say). Then and only then, maybe perhaps you'll have the shadow of a point.

When a country enters the EU, it agrees to comply with EU's decisions. Now, EU can't just make any decision, and decisions have to go through discussions, hearings, etc. EU in some sense is like a parliament with government representatives as its members. When EU in general has accepted some project that obliges all of its members to take their share of refugees, they have to do that. Or to leave EU, if they aren't happy with how EU sorts out these matters.

Just like if you vote for Trump today, you won't get to complain a year later, "Oh, this guy is nuts, he has no right to do all these things". No, he does have right: you granted it to him when you as a country voted him in the office. You are free to leave the US if you aren't happy afterwards.

- - - Updated - - -

Orban Viktor was right all along.

Look at Germany and France, already bombarded by terrorist attacks. And what about countries that took no refugees? Such as Hungary, Poland, Czech Slovakia, have no such acts, and attacks.

Shows them how, Liberals (Left-Wings) destroys everything around them.

Funny thing is, most of those terrorist attacks weren't committed by refugees. Not only is your argument blown out of proportion, it is also wrong factually.

Hungary, Poland, etc. don't have such attacks because they aren't big targets. Who cares if something blows up in Hungary? Now, France, Germany, the UK, and especially the US - these are the targets that will resonate in the world!

[nextormento]

When EU in general has accepted some project that obliges all of its members to take their share of refugees, they have to do that.

We haven't.
When we do, you might have a point.
In the meanwhile, suggesting that any funding Hungary receives is, in any way, subject to their stance on refugees, is silly.

[May90]

We haven't.
When we do, you might have a point.
In the meanwhile, suggesting that any funding Hungary receives is, in any way, subject to their stance on refugees, is silly.

What do you mean "you haven't"? Who "you"? I was talking about EU members.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how EU parliament works.

[nextormento]

What do you mean "you haven't"? Who "you"? I was talking about EU members.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how EU parliament works.

I'm a citizen of the EU.
We don't have any such accord. We haven't accepted any project that obliges all of its members to take their share of refugees.
The parliament has no legislative initiative, or much to do with refugees. It's more of an European Council thing.

[May90]

I'm a citizen of the EU.
We don't have any such accord. We haven't accepted any project that obliges all of its members to take their share of refugees.
The parliament has no legislative initiative, or much to do with refugees. It's more of an European Council thing.

Well, let me get something straight. You say that the members are being forced to accept refugees. Now you are saying that EU parliament can't force them to do that. Then what organization can? Who is forcing, say, Poland to accept refugees? And what will happen if they don't accept them?

[nextormento]

Well, let me get something straight. You say that the members are being forced to accept refugees. Now you are saying that EU parliament can't force them to do that. Then what organization can? Who is forcing, say, Poland to accept refugees? And what will happen if they don't accept them?

I didn't say that. You are imagining things.

I said:
Having refugees is not an agreed thing.
The EU funding is.

Which is a fact. And a very simple one at that. One can't cut EU funding if they refuse to take refugees: because there's no such agreed policy.
Suggesting otherwise is lunacy. Pretending there's any link whatsoever between EU's funding and any member state's stance on refugees is fundamentally disconnected from reality.

Heck, the only thing the EU has agreed to is to take refugees outside of the land and back to Turkey. The EU is clearly not interested in sharing refugees.
This "cut funding" approach is but the wet dreams of punitive halfwits with next to no understanding of how the world functions.



Nobody forces anything upon any member state. We all agree to stuff. We have one shared sovereignty. In the unlikely event that we ever agreed on a common refugee policy, we'll also draft the penalties associated with it all. And then, we'll ignore the penalties (like they did just yesterday with Portugal/Spain's fine for not meeting the agreed deficit).

[Theinquisition]

Oh look, another Supertony thread, bashin' Europe.

You're basically the Tennisball inverted version of people who hate the US cuz reasons.

It's cute.

It's a article featuring the position of a predominant European politician. I didn't write it.

[Deleted]

Not sure if you're serious or joking. It has NOT been as simple as that to handle the "EU Migrants"... In certain places, they just moved into empty houses and occupied land belonging to other individuals...

- - - Updated - - -



Eh, you say potatoe, I say potato. And the "skyrocket" in rapes sentiment belongs to the same camp as calling Sweden the "rape capital"...

Stockholm is, not Sweden as a whole, but if you wish to be blind so be it. Whatever makes you sleep better at night while all of those things are happening around you

[nextormento]

And this, people, is the mindset of Eastern-Europe: "We are entitled to your money and we will give nothing in return!"

They are entitled to EU funding, yes.
They are abiding by the rules, which is the correct mindset.
And they are exerting what little political weight they have in the union, which is an expected and constructive thing to do. They're a member state like any other, and their opinion is part of the process. They are not just a body that receives stuff from the EU: they are part of the EU.

Your refugee pet issue is yet to be agreed. Framing refugees as a coin to be traded is incredibly offensive, and a self-defeating argument.

[Deleted]

Well, let me get something straight. You say that the members are being forced to accept refugees. Now you are saying that EU parliament can't force them to do that. Then what organization can? Who is forcing, say, Poland to accept refugees? And what will happen if they don't accept them?

Nothing, because they didn't sign up for this at the time the nation leaders signed the contract to enter the EU. (And what you personally believe, is extremely irrelevant in this case.)
The EU parliament members can throw a tantrum as long as they want, but they have next to no legal measures to "convince" any of the Eastern European countries to agree with the "refugee" distribution quotas.
They can surely find ways to cut the EU subventions. But at the they should be ready, that the Eastern European countries will at the same time (frankly) give a sh** regarding many of the EU regulations (which are often economically extremely hurtful for these countries), which are tied to the EU subventions.

So it is not as easy as you may think to get the "rebellious" Eastern Europeans back in line.

[Hyve]

To be fair, a country should still be able to dictate their own migration policies, regardless of their position in the EU. Just because the EU as a whole has agreed to take in migrants, doesn't mean that a force migration system is the way to go.

If a country doesn't want, or need migrants, it shouldn't be mandated to take them. Some countries have quite a delicate balance of population, education, social welfare and jobs, and adding even a few thousand migrants to that system can add unwanted strain. It's not entirely fair for those who don't want or need them, to be forced to take them.

If Germany (for example) is happy to take them then that's on Germany, not the rest of the EU.

[nextormento]

To be fair, a country should still be able to dictate their own migration policies, regardless of their position in the EU.
If a country doesn't want, or need migrants, it shouldn't be mandated to take them. Some countries have quite a delicate balance of population, education, social welfare and jobs, and adding even a few thousand migrants to that system can add unwanted strain. It's not entirely fair for those who don't want or need them, to be forced to take them.

If we agreed to share that piece of sovereignty, the EU should be capable of drafting policy addressing each member state's concerns.
Refugees are a drop in a bucket. This should be relatively straightforward to figure out.
It won't happen anytime soon, but it is something that I think we should seek to address as a group.

[nextormento]

We'll see.
The threats are already being made, we all know they'll just get in line and do whatever the hell we tell them to do.
That's because they are not a member state like any other.
Stop projecting this idea of equal partnership when you have countries holding their hands open while the others constantly pour money into them.

The "pouring" countries were put in line just as much. We told them to fund other places. I'm glad the EU can "force" these wealthy members to contribute. It's a shame they can't stop bitching about the tiny, rather irrelevant, eastern partners.
There's no equal membership, nor am I projecting it: "what little political weight" should be enough of a statement to address that bit.
Schulz can threaten all he wants. That's the point of the Parliament: to bitch and moan, while simultaneously having absolutely no legislative initiative.

Stop projecting this idea that the EU is interested in sharing refugees. She's not. The agreement with Turkey should be enough evidence.
It was all a massive show for domestic politics. A lot was said, and very little was done. The only thing we've agreed to is outsourcing their well-being, and fund it in most EU fashion.

[Hyve]

If we agreed to share that piece of sovereignty, the EU should be capable of drafting policy addressing each member state's concerns.
Refugees are a drop in a bucket. This should be relatively straightforward to figure out.
It won't happen anytime soon, but it is something that I think we should seek to address as a group.

My issue is that the EU is basically a half-assed attempt at what it could be. A single currency shared across all these nations is a huge political feat that should always be remembered, but then to allow each nation to control it's own printing and budget just made that almost entirely redundant.

The same goes with many policies, immigration included. If the EU just grew a backbone and took control, or relinquished more control, everything would work out. It's like when you're in the middle of crossing a busy road. Either go back or rush forward, don't fucking dither and piss around in the middle of the road or you're going to get run over.

Either have a strong unified Europe that is it in all together completely or start to let nations have more control over their own borders and migration. Return the EU to a Trade Only organisation, or become a super state. Don't fuck about in between.

[Deleted]

My issue is that the EU is basically a half-assed attempt at what it could be. A single currency shared across all these nations is a huge political feat that should always be remembered, but then to allow each nation to control it's own printing and budget just made that almost entirely redundant.

The shared currency introduced many problems.
a) Economically weaker countries are not able to devalue the currency to make adjustments to the current market. Greece / Italy and Spain are very good examples for that. Without the EUR, these countries would at this time already be on the road to economic recovery with a devalued own currency.
b) Slower economies are therefore dependent on very extensive subventions from countries with a strong economy. They won't be able to get off the drip any time soon.

This was the first mistake to take in countries into the EURO zone, which have no chance to keep up with the speed of the strongest economies in this zone.

The same goes with many policies, immigration included. If the EU just grew a backbone and took control, or relinquished more control, everything would work out. It's like when you're in the middle of crossing a busy road. Either go back or rush forward, don't fucking dither and piss around in the middle of the road or you're going to get run over.

If the EU in this form would grow a backbone and aggressively push forward towards a superstate. We would essentially have a USSR 2.0.
At this point, a normal voter has next to no influence over the course of the EU government.
A EU superstate would also mean, that the EU would have to open itself far more to direct democratic elections. Which I don't see coming at all.
In my humble opinion, the EU and more so the EURO was a stillbirth from day 1 and the faster the EU crumbles down and the European countries return to the normal trade union, the better.

[Kitrana]

Let me shed some light here from my perspective as a hungarian, because I see many of you don't really know anything about the things that move Hungary to such length about this issue.

First you should know that Hungary is used to occupied by many foreign powers in the past years from the Mongols (1200's), Turkish(1541 to 1699), Soviet(up to 1991 pretty much) mainly. And these events left a deep footprint in our culture. Meanwhile the "glorious west" you like so much sat there and grabbed a popcorn in their chair and watched.
After WW2 it was Hungary that was punished the most with the teritorial changes in Trianon (72% of our former territory got taken without any regard that the majority of the population was hungarian in most of these territories.

About the current situation its a little bit different what you people think. Most of hungarians doesn't want immigrants yes including myself since I think the cultural difference can't be bridged in most situations since the other party doesn't comply the slightest to integrate some values of the host (and lets be real here islam will never be about coexistence). A lot of the hungarians think this way because we have already have an experience with such minority that unwilling to adapt to our normes in any way and yet mostly exploiting our social wellfare systems, and they are the gipsies. They have the lowest education rate and yet the highest crime rate and I'm pretty sure you will not find a single hungarian who say ("I'm totally okay to walk around at night, in areas where the majority of the residents are gipsies.). You may say that its our education systems fault that they are mostly stuck with less than 8 year primary school education, but the same time it was the gipsie school skipping kids that forced a law that made sure if the kid skips school for a reasonable time without any reason the parrents can say good bye to wellfare money.

And finally but not exactly lastly here is our current political morale, that pretty much the most sad shit you will ever read. The current political (last ~8+ years) trend is that the governing party takes the cash cow called EU and milks it while building their wealth and companies (mostly via family so they don't have to put it in their wealth report). The EU money goes away mostly because corrupt tenders or corrupt foundations to these people (hence the eu investigations and penalties that not they but we common citizens pay for it pretty much). The answer why don't we change it is because simply our older generation influenced by the soviet occupy see Orban as a hero and goes all the way out in every election to make his party majority at each election (not like other parties in our political culture would be any better since changing leader party would only change the can under the cow, nothing else). So there is no surprise here why the avarage hungarian doesn't care about eu or its request to take immigrants.

This is not the whole but just the part of the problem and just wanted to shed light into the conversation from a hungarian's viewpoint because maybe a few people will be actually interested in it in between the others bashing each other with semi-personal attacks because they don't agree

[Kitrana]

Predominant is a big word. He's more of a clown that isn't taken seriously by anyone but extremist right wingers.

- - - Updated - - -



Which is generally also why EU politicians dislike Hungarian politicians. Orban is perhaps the most corrupt of them all so far.

I don't like him either but our political elite has enough backing so they can pretty much kill off anyone's attempt to bring a change...

[Vorkreist]

And this, people, is the mindset of Eastern-Europe: "We are entitled to your money and we will give nothing in return!"


Let's not forget that these countries fight ISIS by whining about terrorism, while France, Germany, etc, actually do something.

You seem to forget the EU is mainly and economic and trade union and not your desired terrorist welfare program.
Those east european countries will not take those refugee quotes and nothing will happen, except jail for Merkel after shes taken down.