Which leaders shall betray the Horde/Alliance in Legion?

[Zulkhan]

Also, ctrl+f opens a search bar in most browsers.

I know, I'm just nonsensically stubborn at times.

[Mehrunes]

I never actually said that. For all your name calling you sure do love to "construct straw men," "twist posts," and "spread dishonest" bullshit.

Was paraphrasing "We disagree over the morality of a fictional character in a fictional universe. Yes, we call get passionate to a degree, but just f right off if all you're going to do is go 'you don't like Sylvanas? WELL THEN SCREW YOU!'" actually, but whatever floats your boat.

Further? You've taken it beyond that. You've insulted me, and everyone else who dares to disagree with you, by implying we're "lesser" in our real lives because of it. Over an interpretation of a character in a work of fiction, who was drawn primarily as spank material for adolescent boys.

Lesser in real lives? Most of the posts that you felt so deeply insulted by was me making fun of your posts here. Specifically them. That's not really about who you are IRL, is it? So not sure which part are you referring to. Is it being called a genius? I'm still not sure what triggers you about it but then again I'm not really sure I want to since the possible reasons sound scary.

Or is it the victimized bit? Welp, your activity on Blizzard suffering from HORDE BIAS kinda confirms it. What is even better, it was 14 lines of that (again, on my monitor and your mileage may vary). So either a wall of text or, if it's my 16 lines that's bottom mark for what constitutes a wall of text, almost 90% of a wall of text.

Finally, could it be the part about problems with reading comprehension? As I already said, it's your fault you give that impression. But I do not think that would make you lesser. If you think that makes people lesser, that'd make you kinda ableist actually. Shame on you if that's the case.

Also, you once again dismissed Sylvanas as merely spank material, which doesn't make your remarks about people who QUESTION YOU QUESTIONING SYLVANAS or whatever particularly innocent either. Especially when you project some white knight idiocy on them on top of that.

I'm all for delving down the rabbit hole and discussing WoW lore as if it were real. I even commented in this thread (before you nuked it with your temper tantrum) that I'm considering a RP server.

I saw that. Prime example was "you're wrong lel, but I'm not gonna say why".

When a disagreement devolves into you calling someone else "dishonest as fuck" and being unable to grasp simple arguments just because of that disagreement? Well you need to grow the f up.

Which argument of yours have I failed to grasp, exactly? Enlighten me. And me calling you dishonest as fuck is not only factual observation, but it was separate from my disagreement with you. Paragraphs exist for a reason.

And once again you prove incapable of separating me calling out on your dishonesty and me arguing against your lore arguments. But hey, you just admitted to being into delving discussing it, so I'll try again:

Care to actually prove how Sylvanas is the same as the Scourge when it comes to necromancy despite the word of god? Care to prove how there was an initial invasion of Gilneas by Garrosh followed by a separate one by Forsaken that Garrosh was not responsible for? Care to prove how the Blight strain in Gilneas is oh, so super harmful? Care to prove how Alliance didn't attack the Horde first? Care to prove how Sylvanas didn't capture the Alliance aligned human outposts in Silverpine and Hilsbrad only after the war began?

Because these are all lore points I've made and you failed to address, instead opting to, you know, throw a tantrum how I supposedly called you RETARDED because you DARED TO QUESTION SYLVANAS. Speaking of failing to address things, I'm still waiting for an explanation of how post #79 by me was somehow not civil (also uninformative, but that's of a lesser concern) and how you had to put me in my place by calling out my rudeness in that post.

Questioning the skill set I use as part of my career because I've decided to be critical of a character that, yes, you're white knighting for isn't winning you internet points. It's making you look like an ass.

Simply repeating your inane projection doesn't give it any more credibility, I'm afraid. And I do not know what skill set you use as a part of your career, I do not care about your skill set and your skill set isn't particularly relevant to the discussion.

Hey I was all for leaving our back and forth. And then Mehrunes came in with his HOW DARE YOU QUESTION SYLVANAS ARE YOU RETARDED OR JUST A COMPULSIVE LIAR? spiel and here we are.

I haven't called you retarded and for the fourth time, my calling you dishonest was not caused by your opinion on Sylvanas and was separate from my lore arguments. In some fucked up twist you're proving your own idiotic projection right now though.

I know, I'm just nonsensically stubborn at times.

So am I, which is why I continue engaging in this shit show.

[Disreali]

Lesser in real lives? Most of the posts that you felt so deeply insulted by was me making fun of your posts here. Specifically them. That's not really about who you are IRL, is it? So not sure which part are you referring to. Is it being called a genius? I'm still not sure what triggers you about it but then again I'm not really sure I want to since the possible reasons sound scary.

Well considering you used "genius" sarcastically I wouldn't exactly hang your hat on that.

Finally, could it be the part about problems with reading comprehension? As I already said, it's your fault you give that impression. But I do not think that would make you lesser. If you think that makes people lesser, that'd make you kinda ableist actually. Shame on you if that's the case.

I know you said it didn't matter, but I'll just come out with it. I teach for a living. Mentally handicapped children part of the time. I went into that line of work partially because I was inspired by how my teachers helped me excel academically due to my own disabilities. So stuff your attempted insults. Get bent if a disagreement about the morality of a fictional character upsets you to the point where an insult like that seems appropriate.
My apologies to the board in general, but Mehrunes here wanted to get personal.

Also, you once again dismissed Sylvanas as merely spank material, which doesn't make your remarks about people who QUESTION YOU QUESTIONING SYLVANAS or whatever particularly innocent either. Especially when you project some white knight idiocy on them on top of that.

Let me help you by providing my personal point of view of all of this.
Connal and I disagreed over the morality of Sylvanas' actions since Cata. We discussed it, ending on a civil note.
Then hours later I get a notification about you quoting my posts, and see you insulting me, calling me dishonest and questioning my reading comprehension skills over what amounts to a disagreement over a fictional character.
The accusation of you white knighting for Sylvanas seemed fitting, considering how you came riding in here, full of piss and vinegar to defend the honour of a fictional character who I had apparently wronged.
As for the spank material comment...it's called fan service.

I saw that. Prime example was "you're wrong lel, but I'm not gonna say why".

Do you know why I didn't go into details concerning the Horde-Alliance War and who "started" it? It wasn't the purview of the discussion. The discussion was Sylvanas and her actions in Gilneas. Gilneas, at the time of the Horde invasion, was neutral. Therefore who started the Horde-Alliance War literally didn't matter. If the Alliance did? The Horde were still aggressors because Gilneas wasn't an Alliance nation.

Which argument of yours have I failed to grasp, exactly? Enlighten me. And me calling you dishonest as fuck is not only factual observation, but it was separate from my disagreement with you. Paragraphs exist for a reason.

And once again you prove incapable of separating me calling out on your dishonesty and me arguing against your lore arguments. But hey, you just admitted to being into delving discussing it, so I'll try again:

I'm going to assume this is your way of trying to actually have civil discourse. So sure, I'll answer your inquiries.

Care to actually prove how Sylvanas is the same as the Scourge when it comes to necromancy despite the word of god?

Sylvanas used the val'kyr to resurrect slaughtered Alliance-aligned farmers, and used the confusion that came from being newly risen to direct them against their former comrades. That's pretty Scourge-esque.

Care to prove how there was an initial invasion of Gilneas by Garrosh followed by a separate one by Forsaken that Garrosh was not responsible for?

I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly. There was one invasion of Gilneas, started by Garrosh and later taken over by Sylvanas. Has that ever been in doubt?
My point was partially informed by the Gilnean perspective. That Sylvanas did indeed invade their kingdom. That she was ordered to do it by Garrosh is meaningless to the Gilnean people who lost their homes to the Forsaken's armies.
Or to draw some real world parallels..."I was just following orders" is hardly an accepted excuse when it comes to justifying questionable actions during wartime.

Care to prove how the Blight strain in Gilneas is oh, so super harmful?

Varian's text at the end of SoO indicates that Gilneas needs to be cleansed of the plague. Was it effective at stopping the worgen in a military capacity? No. Was it successful in decimating the land and rendering it uninhabitable? Yes.

Care to prove how Alliance didn't attack the Horde first?

The war started with Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale. Everything else that can be cited as the "start" of the war is tied to that. Why was the Alliance expanding into the Barrens? To establish a supply chain between Theramore and the Night Elves. Why did they need to establish that supply chain? They needed to establish that supply chain because the Horde, under Garrosh, were pushing deeper and deeper into Night Elf territory.

Care to prove how Sylvanas didn't capture the Alliance aligned human outposts in Silverpine and Hilsbrad only after the war began?

Did I ever say she attacked prior to the outbreak of the war? Nope. Not sure what you're getting on about here.

Simply repeating your inane projection doesn't give it any more credibility, I'm afraid. And I do not know what skill set you use as a part of your career, I do not care about your skill set and your skill set isn't particularly relevant to the discussion.

If you're going to claim I'm abelist, that my ability to comprehend what I read is lacking, and that I'm "dishonest as fuck" over a disagreement about a character in a work of fiction? Well you made it personal. So my personal life becomes relevant because you forced it to be.
I've disagreed with Zulkhan and Connal, and we've all managed to do it without it becoming personal.

Anyway I've answered your questions concerning the lore. I suspect we'll disagree, but that shouldn't be news at this point.
Anyway I have a very simple question for you. And given the shit fit you threw when I paired down a quote of yours? I don't think I'm out of line to expect you to answer this one. As I've done for you.

Again, I go back to a post you directed at me months ago (one where you managed to go insult-free, imagine that). Here's the quote in question.

Mental gymnastics are not necessary to dismiss imaginary bullshit that some people pull out of the deepest recesses of their asses because they feel some inexplicable urge to paint the Horde worse than it is. There is enough of actual material that can be used against them, like the things you've mentioned.

So here you concede that that there are legitimate grievances to hold against the Horde as a whole.
My question to you is this. What would be, in your mind, a legitimate and fair criticism of Sylvanas' actions post-WotLK?

[Vishy]

Your semi-horde, your quasi horde, your the margarine of horde, your the diet coke of horde, just one calorie, not horde enough.

Literally made my night. Lmao

[Friendlyimmolation]

The war started with Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale. Everything else that can be cited as the "start" of the war is tied to that. Why was the Alliance expanding into the Barrens? To establish a supply chain between Theramore and the Night Elves. Why did they need to establish that supply chain? They needed to establish that supply chain because the Horde, under Garrosh, were pushing deeper and deeper into Night Elf territory.

The war started with Varian declaring War in Wotlk

[Disreali]

The war started with Varian declaring War in Wotlk

I would agree if we saw any sort of all-out war between the factions afterwards. The only Alliance-Horde conflict in Northrend for all of WotLK is a result of Garrosh directing his soldiers in GH to attack the Alliance.

You know the NElf delegates that were found murdered by the Twilight's Hammer? Who made it appear as if they were killed by the Horde? Varian demands Thrall condone the attack. Not the first choice for a leader who considers himself at war, is it? Varian's "declaration" after the Wrathgate was bluster, and everything seems to indicate that the Horde and Alliance were at peace for a brief time following Arthas' death.
Conflict doesn't start until tensions arise over Ashenvale, which ultimately boils down to the orcs wanting land that doesn't belong to them.

Hell, didn't Thrall name Garrosh Warchief partially because he sensed war was coming? Not there already, but coming and inevitable. And he wanted the orcs to have a leader who could lead them through that.

[Mehrunes]

Well considering you used "genius" sarcastically I wouldn't exactly hang your hat on that.

That's like, your opinion. But as said before, I channeled my inner Alliance player earlier and reached enlightenment, which made me realize that the idea of crybabies that came to me at first was my Horde bias and people here are actually geniuses. I left it crossed out as an eternal reminder of my miraculous transition.

I know you said it didn't matter, but I'll just come out with it. I teach for a living. Mentally handicapped children part of the time. I went into that line of work partially because I was inspired by how my teachers helped me excel academically due to my own disabilities. So stuff your attempted insults. Get bent if a disagreement about the morality of a fictional character upsets you to the point where an insult like that seems appropriate.
My apologies to the board in general, but Mehrunes here wanted to get personal.

For some weird reason the impression did not change.

Let me help you by providing my personal point of view of all of this.
Connal and I disagreed over the morality of Sylvanas' actions since Cata. We discussed it, ending on a civil note.
Then hours later I get a notification about you quoting my posts

No waiii, people responding to something after some time on an international online forum with people from different countries posting at different hours because time zones are a thing that exists. Like I said earlier, the thread grew over night from my perspective. I caught up on it.

and see you insulting me, calling me dishonest and questioning my reading comprehension skills over what amounts to a disagreement over a fictional character.

Continuing the above - what I saw you was you twisting my post and trying to be smug about it. Unless you see no difference between:

Humans of Hillsbrad, Southshore and Amber Mill were hostile since forever, the ones from Amber Mill also decided to support the invading 7th Legion despite escaping to magic bubble and being ignored by the Forsaken. All three were wiped out (alongside with Dun'Garok) only after the Alliance-Horde war erupted, which it did with Northwatch Hold attacking Crossroads and capturing Horde outpost of Honor's Stand (not to mention Varian's stunt in the Undercity).

and

Humans of Hillsbrad, Southshore and Amber Mill were hostile since forever, the ones from Amber Mill also decided to support the invading 7th Legion despite escaping to magic bubble and being ignored by the Forsaken.

in which case the impression is only reaffirmed. The former offers context for why these outposts were attacked. And your reply of:

I love how Forsaken fans will go on about how the natives of Lordaeron deserve to have their land when those natives are Forsaken. When it comes to still-living Lordaeron natives who remained loyal to the Alliance? It's "KILL THEM UNTIL THEY'RE DEAD!"

sure as fuck is not a valid response to the whole thing because it stopped being about people deserving land or anything like that and turned into, you know, a war.

The accusation of you white knighting for Sylvanas seemed fitting, considering how you came riding in here, full of piss and vinegar to defend the honour of a fictional character who I had apparently wronged.

Simply repeating your inane projection doesn't give it any more credibility, I'm afraid.

As for the spank material comment...it's called fan service.

And has even less relevance to the topic than your profession.

Do you know why I didn't go into details concerning the Horde-Alliance War and who "started" it? It wasn't the purview of the discussion. The discussion was Sylvanas and her actions in Gilneas. Gilneas, at the time of the Horde invasion, was neutral. Therefore who started the Horde-Alliance War literally didn't matter. If the Alliance did? The Horde were still aggressors because Gilneas wasn't an Alliance nation.

But it does matter in regards to the topic of Hilslbrad, Southshore, Amber Mill and Dun Garok, where you still conveniently dismissed it. Which did pop up in your discussion with Connal (well, in general, didn't mention Amber Mill or Dun Garok specifically but the circumstances are the same).

Sylvanas used the val'kyr to resurrect slaughtered Alliance-aligned farmers, and used the confusion that came from being newly risen to direct them against their former comrades. That's pretty Scourge-esque.

If you ignore being a mind slave to the Lich King and the farmers still being a choice after their haze lifted, then sure. And the only time we've seen the Forsaken abusing that effect (or well, it even existing) was after the Alliance betrayed the Forsaken and broke Koltira's idiotic truce with Thasarrian and kicked them in the balls. They don't exactly have a moral high ground here. Only karma. In relation to an earlier post, Odyn, a Titan Keeper and former Prime Designate is actually worse. So are the Knights of the Ebon Blade. And pretty much anyone who dabbles in necromancy or even resurrection (like Aegwynn).

I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly. There was one invasion of Gilneas, started by Garrosh and later taken over by Sylvanas. Has that ever been in doubt?

I'm getting at post #94 (which to think of it, also includes the falsehood of natives being killed, enslaved or exiled, but that was already covered earlier with the pointing out of Argent Dawn and later mutations of it). Phrasing Garrosh's invasion as "initial" indicates there have been subsequent invasions.

Or to draw some real world parallels..."I was just following orders" is hardly an accepted excuse when it comes to justifying questionable actions during wartime.

But she didn't commit questionable actions from Gilnean perspective. She committed warlike actions during wartime. And then left Gilneas to rot showing that maybe invasion wasn't her idea or among her goals after all.

Varian's text at the end of SoO indicates that Gilneas needs to be cleansed of the plague. Was it effective at stopping the worgen in a military capacity? No. Was it successful in decimating the land and rendering it uninhabitable? Yes.

Or it just smells bad. You're speculating something about a strain so weak it didn't do anything to the Worgen.

The war started with Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale. Everything else that can be cited as the "start" of the war is tied to that. Why was the Alliance expanding into the Barrens? To establish a supply chain between Theramore and the Night Elves. Why did they need to establish that supply chain? They needed to establish that supply chain because the Horde, under Garrosh, were pushing deeper and deeper into Night Elf territory.

Yes, the attack on Barrens including a conquest of a Horde outpost prior to the Cataclysm was to establish a supply chain between Theramore and Night Elves as a response to Garrosh's aggression that happened... after the Cataclysm? Wait...

Did I ever say she attacked prior to the outbreak of the war? Nope. Not sure what you're getting on about here.

No, you only shrugged it aside and went "why do the Forsaken not respect their right to land" despite said right and respect to it vanishing into thin air the moment war is involved.

If you're going to claim I'm abelist, that my ability to comprehend what I read is lacking, and that I'm "dishonest as fuck" over a disagreement about a character in a work of fiction? Well you made it personal. So my personal life becomes relevant because you forced it to be.

I really do not see the logic in this.

And given the shit fit you threw when I paired down a quote of yours?

Given your idea that using ermahgerd is apparently some kind of an insult you're throwing stones in glass houses.

So here you concede that that there are legitimate grievances to hold against the Horde as a whole.
My question to you is this. What would be, in your mind, a legitimate and fair criticism of Sylvanas' actions post-WotLK?

Iunno, things like torture, being disloyal to the Horde at times, abusing the resurrection confusion, picking idiots for generals costing her own people's lives, lack of significant engagement in Horde's wars post 4.0 (though I suppose this could be seen as positive from the perspective of Alliance or the Forsaken themselves), not doing anything about Alterac, Gilneas and Stromgarde when she could have captured them easily with how things went or were presented, creating a security risk (from Horde perspective), putting Stillwater in control of Hillsbrad which ended in humans being planted into the ground and other weird things (despite her not knowing about it). And she did stoop kinda low by kidnapping Lorna, but then again she delivered on her promise to have her unharmed in case of GLF's surrender.

Things like using the Blight when it's just an efficient weapon that offers a cleaner death than most others used by any other faction? Not so much. Especially if you argue from an IC point of view like you did numerous times, since Azeroth has no treaties about prohibiting any weapons. Capturing enemy outposts during a war when she tolerated them for the most part prior to it despite having conflicting claims on most of these outposts? Not really, just the consequences of war (that the Alliance started). Necromancy? Again, no one seems to have a problem with the Ebon Blade, either in game or in playerbase. And they are objectively worse in this department (and most others).

[Maxilian]

Guys, i see you're having fun, but don't get angry at each other, in the end, thanks to the other, you have spend a couple of hours thinking about some that is fun for you (so in the end, you were having fun in a strange way, like those people playing LoL that are always raging -not that you guys are rager but that feeling, that even though you guys are angry, its kind of fun)

[Disreali]

Guys, i see you're having fun, but don't get angry at each other, in the end, thanks to the other, you have spend a couple of hours thinking about some that is fun for you (so in the end, you were having fun in a strange way, like those people playing LoL that are always raging -not that you guys are rager but that feeling, that even though you guys are angry, its kind of fun)

I was at that point like yesterday dude. Blame my inability to walk away from someone who cause me "fucking dishonest" over a disagreement concerning fiction.
I'm willing to let bygones be bygones if Mehrunes is.

[steelballfc]

In short... can't we all just get along? :P

*heavy Breathing*
are you insane
how you can say that in our holy Thread
we must fight until an admin shut down this thread

- - - Updated - - -

It took me 5 minutes to see where the fuck I was mentioned. Never again looking a post without lens.

I imagined you looking everywhere saying
where dafuq is my mention

- - - Updated - - -

Guys, i see you're having fun, but don't get angry at each other, in the end, thanks to the other, you have spend a couple of hours thinking about some that is fun for you (so in the end, you were having fun in a strange way, like those people playing LoL that are always raging -not that you guys are rager but that feeling, that even though you guys are angry, its kind of fun)

*grapping popcorn*

[Immitis]

We know its bound to happen but who do you think specifically?.

[Maxilian]

Jaina and Genn, by valuing revenge over the Alliance and siding with dark forces because they feel abandoned.

Genn, for one reason or the other, he has been shown with the words (loyal ally) at his side, so i don't think he will join forces with the enemy, i actually expect Genn to become some kind of champion for Odyn (just because Sylvanas is the "champion" of Helya and just to get the power to kill her, he will happily kneel before this titanic creature)

[Zephre]

I see the crazy tin foil hat brigade is still out in force shouting Sylvanas at anyone who will listen. It won't be Sylvanas, it won't be Genn. They're already killing off a crap load of characters in Legion I can't see them killing off any more faction leaders.

[3DTyrant]

I'm hoping for Jaina, just so we can gut the moany bitch and reveal her cold, blackened heart for what it really is.

[DemonHunter18]

Sylvanas. I'm surprised that she is still alive. I hope that she dies in this expansion.

[Daralii]

I see the crazy tin foil hat brigade is still out in force shouting Sylvanas at anyone who will listen. It won't be Sylvanas, it won't be Genn. They're already killing off a crap load of characters in Legion I can't see them killing off any more faction leaders.

Correction, they've killed off a load of Horde leaders. As of Legion they'll have lost Garrosh, Vol'jin, and Thrall has become a recluse. The Alliance has only lost Varian, so I fully expect them to kill off at least a couple Alliance leaders to even the scales.

Legion is basically just them grabbing fan theories and throwing them at the wall(see: Tirisfal = Tyr's Fall), so I'm fully expecting the Jaina is a dreadlord meme to be made canon. Then we can enjoy several years of Horde posters jerking themselves off over it.

[Kellorion]

Mana Bombs cant melt Steel Beams! Theramore was a setup!!


anywho, i'm sticking with Rommath and Wrymbane Legion spoiler ahead dont click if ya dont wanna know Var'goth and Manastorm!

[Steelangel]

Plot Twist: Kiljaeden snaps his fingers and all of the green orcs' fel blood gets activated. Thrall conquers Ogrimmar for the legion, and we have to kill them all. Aedelas Blackmoore was right.

[Florena]

Correction, they've killed off a load of Horde leaders. As of Legion they'll have lost Garrosh, Vol'jin, and Thrall has become a recluse. The Alliance has only lost Varian, so I fully expect them to kill off at least a couple Alliance leaders to even the scales.

Legion is basically just them grabbing fan theories and throwing them at the wall(see: Tirisfal = Tyr's Fall), so I'm fully expecting the Jaina is a dreadlord meme to be made canon. Then we can enjoy several years of Horde posters jerking themselves off over it.

We've alsoost Bolvar to the scourge and Magni to neutrality as Azeroth's follower.

As for the Jaina meme I doubt it. Her actions don't make sense as a dreadlord. If she were one she'd stay in dalaran to try and sabotage it as an insider or something not run off on her own.

[Maxilian]

We've alsoost Bolvar to the scourge and Magni to neutrality as Azeroth's follower.

As for the Jaina meme I doubt it. Her actions don't make sense as a dreadlord. If she were one she'd stay in dalaran to try and sabotage it as an insider or something not run off on her own.

She could have known that the Demon Hunters could easily uncover her if that were the case (DH and Paladins actually got miniquests in dalaran that are basically uncovering demons, cause some of your spells let you "identify" them)