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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    The original post was that blizzard stated the silence was not automated, and that a real GM would be making the call - he proved it wrong day 1... common sense has nothing to do with the point of this entire post was to show it WAS automated - and the system can, and has already been abused by several thousand people. Blizzards already deleted hundreds of threads on this, and the damage control isn't even cutting the mustard this time. I'll let you get silenced for nothing a few times before you come back and fully understand how bad the system can be
    It's automated PENDING INVESTIGATION, which is absolutely normal. If your neighbors call the police on you for murdering your wife they will hold you in for further investigations. You aren't yet sentenced to life in prison, and you might very well be released the next day.

    On the other hand I think it should be automated after a certain threshold. Like if it's the n-th report of a lot of people against the same player, don't even bother investigating. It's not like there's a conspiracy where random people gather in hordes to report the same dude...

    The thousands of people silenced "for nothing" are completely in your head as are the hundreds of threads deleted. Of course ALL the silenced people will say they were silenced for nothing, it's not like criminals are quick to admit any guilt.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    Don't be dicks... how hard is it to understand? Don't troll and fuck with people just because. Be a human being. Not hard to live by in RL but for some reason the internet makes people stupid.
    What if trolling and messing with people is how you are a human being though?
    1) Load the amount of weight I would deadlift onto the bench
    2) Unrack
    3) Crank out 15 reps
    4) Be ashamed of constantly skipping leg day

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    They use stolen accounts. This is a finite resource. While they don't care about getting these accounts banned and silenced, they can't afford to keep doing it indefinitely.
    Okay, you can already report those without the silence system though, said accounts should be banned (possible revert when the real owner contacts blizz), not just silenced... If I steal a car, I get charged with theft, I don't just lose the priveledge to drive on the highway. Not to mention that it's always been a finite source, the silence system doesn't change this, at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    I quite specifically said "Boost for money". You're not allowed to sell anything in game for real money, and advertising it in trade is just plain wrong, not only because it is against the ToS, but also because it is a hostile activity towards players. Not only are they trying to get you to participate in a potentially risky real money transaction (bear in mind that someone advertising a CM boost could easily be a phishing scam to get hold of your credit card details), but it also makes it more difficult for players trying to sell and buy legit boosts (ie for gold). For Blizzard it is a huge risk because they cannot in any way guarantee that once their customer has paid real money for the boost, that the seller ever upholds their end of the bargain - which could result in a very unhappy customer.
    I assumed you meant money as in gold, not real money, sorry. Again, these people shoudn't be silenced though, they should be banned since they are breaking TOS. Not to mention that the person buying it should probably know better but w/e. Guess we can't hold people accountable for their own fuck up in the game, I guess. >.>

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    It's about what the abuser is able to do in the time it takes for the old system to react that is the concern. There is, absolutely, a lot of merit in ensuring that abusers are dealt with a lot faster than has been the case in the past, and that their victims not be made to suffer any longer than possible.
    Okay, it's fast, that's true. If the ticket is about a serious issue, GMs already react pretty damn fast though, so this is a pretty meager benefit. Not to mention that I doubt/hope that a single person reporting someone can result in a silence. So it's a moot point anyway. Assitionally they could just use the same ignore system that every other Blizzard game uses, where it blocks the bnet account instead of just 1 char. Guess the technology just isn't their yet.

    To give an example of how fast a ban can happen: Reckful was playing WoW on some plebs account a while back, AKA accountsharing. I don't remember the exect time but he got banned incredibly fast. I mean, we're talking about account sharing here, not even account theft or something. So I'd have to imagine that reporting someone for abuse/selling gold through stolen accounts would result in an equally fast response.

  4. #584
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    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    Okay, you can already report those without the silence system though, said accounts should be banned (possible revert when the real owner contacts blizz), not just silenced
    I agree. However the discussion is centred around the point of when the silence occurs relative to when a GM reviews it. Basically with the new system, if someone is reported enough, they are silenced immediately. A GM will then review it and decide whether it needs to be upheld (and the offender moves up the silence ladder) or overturned (and the vindicated player unsilenced without moving up the silence ladder). In some cases, presumably further action like account bans might happen (eg for goldsellers) since it is a GM reviewing the report and presumably he should be doing what Blizzard would want him to do (barring human failure).

    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    Not to mention that it's always been a finite source, the silence system doesn't change this, at all.
    What it changes is how much mileage a goldseller can get out of the finite source. Let's say a goldseller has access to 100 compromised accounts. He uses one of them and advertises his wares for 2 days before the account gets shut down. He then simply moves to the next account and continues. After 200 days all his accounts have been used up, but luckily for him, his buddies in crime have hacked another 100 accounts, so he continues unabated.

    Now, enter the new system. Goldseller advertises his wares in trade. Two minutes later he is silenced. So he simply moves to the next account and continues. But he can't advertise for more than two minutes before he is silenced. 4 hours later he has gone through all 100 accounts and he goes to his buddies in crime, who tell him to come back in 6 months.

    Goldseller is effectively no longer able to advertise in trade using stolen accounts.



    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    I assumed you meant money as in gold, not real money, sorry. Again, these people shoudn't be silenced though, they should be banned since they are breaking TOS.
    Well of course they should be banned. But in the interim, between the time that 50 people reported them and a GM actually gets to review the case, they should be silenced so as not to cause any further harm.

    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    Not to mention that the person buying it should probably know better but w/e. Guess we can't hold people accountable for their own fuck up in the game, I guess. >.>
    While you're correct, that doesn't mean that Blizz should just ignore it. Some people are genuinely naive - it's in Blizzard's interest to protect them from potentially being scammed while playing the game. Some people are just silly, and knowingly take a risk - but even then it's still in Blizzard's interest to try and minimise the chances of them being tempted into doing something like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ophion1990 View Post
    To give an example of how fast a ban can happen: Reckful was playing WoW on some plebs account a while back, AKA accountsharing. I don't remember the exect time but he got banned incredibly fast. I mean, we're talking about account sharing here, not even account theft or something. So I'd have to imagine that reporting someone for abuse/selling gold through stolen accounts would result in an equally fast response.
    Actually what you're referring to is exactly the same principle as the new system. Blizzard has automatic systems that detect certain events and then ban players. These bans are only investigated by a human if the affected player queries it. Seems like a bad idea right? Not really.

    I got banned in exactly that way a few years back. It wasn't a fun experience. I had to log into the website and send a ticket. A few hours later a GM responded by email, telling me what had happened (I was using a virtual network (VPN) service to achieve lower latency, which is a similar technique to what goldsellers use to mask their IP) and the ban was reversed. Now I suppose I could, like a child, get mad that Blizzard had the audacity to inconvenience me like that, or I could be pragmatic and try to understand it from their side. Their systems probably pick up thousands of genuine goldseller accounts every month and along with that a small number of legitimate players. The amount of manpower it would take to investigate every goldseller account would make it impossible to deal with them at all. So they have a choice - use a bot to do it and then address the false positives afterwards, or just give in and accept that goldsellers are going to run rampant.

    I think it's a pretty easy choice tbh. Left unchecked, goldsellers, like any vicious parasite, would eventually wreck the game for everyone - the players (which includes me) and for Blizzard. At some point if we, as players, are not prepared to accept some level of inconvenience, we cannot, realistically, expect that Blizzard will be able to offer the kind of gaming experience that we would like.

    Do I like the fact that the silence system can potentially be abused by douchey players to target other players? Not particularly.
    Do I think that this is better than the alternative? That remains to be seen. This is a new system. Time will tell whether it has made things overall better than worse.
    Do I think that this was at least worth a shot? Absolutely. I think this has the potential to solve some very real issues in the game and should be given a chance before we write it off as a bad idea.

    Yes I realise that some people think that there should be a way to have their cake and eat it, but I am not that naive. Real systems are always about some trade-off, it's really just about figuring out what is more important.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    90% of posts in this thread are targets for auto-silence. Including yours that I quote. If you want to not be auto-silenced, being nice won't help, the only thing you can do is limit how much you write. People who are nice but post frequently or semi-frequently are going to be auto-silenced at some point, period, that's just how it works with player-induced silences. (Then they will cry on the forums and someone will helpfully suggest that perhaps they aren't telling the whole story and were saying something bad. After which those silenced will learn their lesson and shut up. The world you are advocating for is that of silence, not that of nice behavior. Silence and occasional abuse.)

    I don't care if I get incorrectly auto silenced... I'll appeal it and it will be lifted. It's a minor inconvenience and worth the cost to finally start cleaning up the absolute garbage pile chat has become.

  6. #586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    In theory everything is good. Wait until you get couple of wrongful silences during raid time and stuff and then you have to quit everything go appeal come back and all these completely uneccessary problems ruining your game time will get you. When this happens (and judging from how you provocative and insulting you are when you post it will and rightfully so) please don't come back to /boo the system thinking we won't remember
    1) You're assuming the system will work terribly and have a relatively high false trigger rate
    2) You're assuming that the system won't be tuned to reduce that rate
    3) You're assuming that if the system cannot be fixed, that they'll persist with it
    4) You're protesting before any of these assumptions can be tested.

    The funny thing about this thread is that it was started to ask how many people have been silenced. I think everyone can accept that there is a possibility that the system can be abused (Asmongold proved it can be abused, he didn't prove how much it will be abused). But the fact that almost no one is complaining about actually being a victim, would indicate that the perceived potential for abuse is a lot greater than the actual abuse.

    TL;DR You're making a storm in a teacup. Give it a bit of time. See how it actually pans out, and if there are actual problems whether Blizzard adjusts the system.

  7. #587
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Funky View Post
    I told someone to kill themselves and got silenced.

    THE INJUSTICE.
    It looks like it's working, then. Good.

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    The guy who asks you to be a "human being" uses the words "troll" "fuck" "dicks" "stupid" in one sentence. Its so impressive really. These are the people who get the right to silence others lol. Poetry.
    Reading and counting is hard. I used those words in one post... over the course of three sentences. If you want to make a valid point though I'm listening.

  9. #589
    Deleted
    WoW people still think an automated system with exponentially growing penalty, controlled by the players with NO limits, will work out well? Nice.

    If you just type ANYTHING, people can report you and you get 24h silence and have to appeal it.
    Then you type anything again, people report you again, you get 24h silence and have to appeal it.
    And again. And again. And again.

    Instead of what Blizzard initially stated:
    You type anything, people report you, a GM looks at it and decides if you need to be silenced.
    Which instantly discourages abuse, because other then pissing off GMs nothing happens. So the abusers don't get anything out of it, worst case a GM punishes them for abuse...

    If they want to reduce the amount of work for GMs, have a scan for certain words that are not wanted and throw out auto-silences for those people. Fair enough, if somebody uses cocksucker in the trade-chat I have no problem with an automated silence. But not for ANYTHING.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Sargnagel View Post
    WoW people still think an automated system with exponentially growing penalty, controlled by the players with NO limits, will work out well? Nice.

    If you just type ANYTHING, people can report you and you get 24h silence and have to appeal it.
    Then you type anything again, people report you again, you get 24h silence and have to appeal it.
    And again. And again. And again.
    It's like thinking that the police shouldn't be able to arrest people, because false reports would be abused.

    What it ignores is the obvious control mechanism of penalties for malicious reports.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  11. #591
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's like thinking that the police shouldn't be able to arrest people, because false reports would be abused.

    What it ignores is the obvious control mechanism of penalties for malicious reports.
    The police doesn't go to your house and arrests you because somebody said you shot your wife, they come up to you and CHECK if it's true! That's the difference.

    The Reports go unchecked, you get reported and punished without any human looking at it.
    In reallife, the police looks into it and if it's justified punishes you. (or the legal system, but you get the point)

    Are there any "obvious" control mechanisms? They didn't name ANY, because from their statement, they would be no need for them. Because abuse would be stupid.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Sargnagel View Post
    The police doesn't go to your house and arrests you because somebody said you shot your wife, they come up to you and CHECK if it's true! That's the difference.
    If enough people reported they heard you planning to kill your wife, you'd be arrested. Word of mouth is enough to get someone arrested. This is why filing a false report with the police is a crime.

    But I guess to the community that finds SWATing hilarious fun this argument doesn't make sense.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  13. #593
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If enough people reported they heard you planning to kill your wife, you'd be arrested. Word of mouth is enough to get someone arrested. This is why filing a false report with the police is a crime.

    But I guess to the community that finds SWATing hilarious fun this argument doesn't make sense.
    Maybe, but what if you don't even have a wife? The police still investigates and doesn't blindly trust the reports. Yes more reports make it far more likely they will take you to court, but if they have no evidence, nothing will happen to you! And if you get locked up and are innocent, at least in my country, you get a compensation for the time spent.

    And that is what is not happening with this system, there is no check for evidence, no innocent-until-proven-guilty, no compensation for time falsely being silenced. Nothing at all.

    Well the community that finds SWATing hilarious is the same community silencing people for shitz & gigglez right now.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Sargnagel View Post
    Maybe, but what if you don't even have a wife? The police still investigates and doesn't blindly trust the reports.
    Oh please. I'm sure if you tried you could come up with false reports that could get anyone arrested, even if they don't have a wife.

    You should just admit I've made a valid point and move on.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #595
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Oh please. I'm sure if you tried you could come up with false reports that could get anyone arrested, even if they don't have a wife.

    You should just admit I've made a valid point and move on.
    No, you are wrong, the police has to investigate every fucking case. Because you are innocent until proven guilty. They might take you in for a night or two, but they cannot lock you up for 5 years, because someone said you did something. They have to PROVE you did what the person accuses you of.

    Which is NOT the case with the automated silence system, nobody needs to check anything. We don't even know if a GM ever looks at a auto-silence. Because if it's just 24H, they might not even waste their time. We don't know, so assuming the WORST case is the safest bet.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Sargnagel View Post
    No, you are wrong, the police has to investigate every fucking case. Because you are innocent until proven guilty.
    Dude. Police can arrest you before you've been convicted of anything. They don't need to prove you guilty to do that.

    This is so obvious that I have to wonder at how you imagine it was otherwise.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    1) You're assuming the system will work terribly and have a relatively high false trigger rate
    2) You're assuming that the system won't be tuned to reduce that rate
    3) You're assuming that if the system cannot be fixed, that they'll persist with it
    4) You're protesting before any of these assumptions can be tested.

    The funny thing about this thread is that it was started to ask how many people have been silenced. I think everyone can accept that there is a possibility that the system can be abused (Asmongold proved it can be abused, he didn't prove how much it will be abused). But the fact that almost no one is complaining about actually being a victim, would indicate that the perceived potential for abuse is a lot greater than the actual abuse.

    TL;DR You're making a storm in a teacup. Give it a bit of time. See how it actually pans out, and if there are actual problems whether Blizzard adjusts the system.
    I agree about waiting, but there is no way to tune the system, because the problem with it is that the judgement is in the hands of players. You can't compensate that with numbers, numbers only make it less efficient at cleaning chat but also less prone to abuse or more efficient at cleaning chat but, you guessed, more prone to abuse. Or at least I don't see a way to compensate with numbers.

    There is thus no useful tuning apart from turning the automatic silence part off.

  18. #598
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Dude. Police can arrest you before you've been convicted of anything. They don't need to prove you guilty to do that.

    This is so obvious that I have to wonder at how you imagine it was otherwise.
    Wrong again, they need to have SOME evidence to do that. If you have some weed on you, they can take you in for the night and then you will see a judge. But the police CANNOT throw you into jail!
    Maybe you live in a fucking third world country where this isn't the case, but in the more civilized world, the police has very limited abilities to punish people.

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Dude. Police can arrest you before you've been convicted of anything. They don't need to prove you guilty to do that.

    This is so obvious that I have to wonder at how you imagine it was otherwise.
    Since you are doing an analogy, do it right. It's not police arresting in this case, it's citizens. This is a big no-no.

  20. #600
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I agree about waiting, but there is no way to tune the system, because the problem with it is that the judgement is in the hands of players. You can't compensate that with numbers, numbers only make it less efficient at cleaning chat but also less prone to abuse or more efficient at cleaning chat but, you guessed, more prone to abuse. Or at least I don't see a way to compensate with numbers.

    There is thus no useful tuning apart from turning the automatic silence part off.
    Yes, add a filter in that checks the reported message for any "bad words" everything that doesn't contain any of these will get reviewed by a human.
    Instantly you get only those people auto-silenced that use words that are deemed "bad" by Blizzard. And a ton of false reports just land before a human who can judge them and then the whole "report and silenced for any message" is over.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Since you are doing an analogy, do it right. It's not police arresting in this case, it's citizens. This is a big no-no.
    Why didn't I think of this. Thank you for pointing this obvious difference out.

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